Someone is wrong on the internets!

This was posted to the latest comments in the HK. Because you suck. And we hate you. thread.  (written in 2007 and still getting hate mail).  This is the kind of crap that I have to deal with.

If you get a sneer from HK for wanting to handle an MP5 at the shot show, it’s because you don’t have a class 3 license.  If you do not have a class 3, you cannot handle a fully automatic weapon.  To have disdain for someone following FFL laws is moronic. 

Huh… Is that so?  First off, you don’t get a “Class 3 License”. There is no such thing.  You pay a transfer tax and purchase an NFA item. There is no license.  The “3” comes from Title 3 FFL, which is a machine gun DEALER.  Not owner…

So apparently it is now illegal to even TOUCH the majesty that is HK, unless you have a license so special that it doesn’t actuallyEXIST.  So, help me out here, do if a regular person goes to the range and rents a full auto weapon, does he have to get a provisional imaginary license to shoot it?

Holy crap, exercise some critical thinking skills once in awhile.

IF the MP5 was so cheap and you hold it with such disdain, then why whine about not being able to handle one on a forum?  And if the MP5 was such a piece of crap, then why do most tactical teams use one?

Sigh… Okay.  How many tactical (I so hate that word) teams use M4 carbine variants now instead of HK?  Apparently “most” is a subjective term, applied only after an analytic survey of Rainbow Six Vegas 2 loadouts and the covers of Dick Marcinko novels.

Not that I care about the MP5, but I do own a USPC, which is one of the best built handguns on the planet.  Let me enlighten you as to why they are overpriced pieces of shit.  Unlike the Glock, which has a few stamped tool steel parts internally.  All of the HK USP &; USPC internals are EDM wire cut, tool steel parts, that are machined and then heat treated to the A class scale of RC hardness.  Not the C or D class as the overly hyped Austrian counter part. 

Forged in the fires of Mount Doom by the hands of Sauron himself, the HK is the greatest implement of destruction known to man.  HK’s plastic frame isn’t made from petroleum that came from inferior plants millions of years ago, rather the petroleum used for HK’s advanced polymers comes only from the fiercest of T-Rexes. 

Unlike the overly hyped Austrian pistol, HK does not have cheap plastic parts such as the spring loaded bearing, extractor depressor plunger, spacer sleeve, spring cups, firing pin channel liner.  Which will melt and fuse if exposed to too much heat. 

Oh man, you know it is a strange day when I find myself defending Glock…  They’re okay (I put them about equivelent to the HK, only with an easier to use trigger), and I have seen Glocks break, but I’ve never, ever, never seen one melt… Where to you shoot?  Inside a toaster oven?  Have you actually engaged in a gun battle on Mercury?  In Hell?  “Hey, Satan, take that!  click  Oh no! The fires of Hades have melted my spring cup to my firing pin channel liner! NOOOO!”

Thus if you are in a desert situation like Afghanistan or Iraque

Where the &%$@ is Iraque?

you have a great possibility of this pistol malfunctioning on you than a USP. 

Who the hell do you fight in “Iraque”?  Lava men? 

The S.O.C.O.M. uses a USP style pistol on steroids called the Mark 23.

Who is “THE S.O.C.O.M.? Is that like the Artist Formerly Known as Prince?  Do you mean SOCOM, Special Operations Command?  Like the guys that spent a whole bunch of money buying Mk 23s to sit in arms rooms, unused?  Oh man, what about the guys at THE Socom who have 1911s?  He he he… Man, I bet having cool guys carrying an old, metal, American gun blows your mind.

There is a reason that this pistol is used and not a Glock, S&W, Beretta, Colt and such. 

I don’t think this guy really realizes where pistols fit into the grand scheme of warfare, but I wonder how many Beretta M9s have been used lately in comparison to the Mk23?  And too bad the Glock melts in the Fires of Iraque, because somebody might want to tell all those contractor types that mostly hand out Glock 19s.

It’s because none of the other pistols were able to pass their stringent endurance and reliability tests.  To my knowledge, no Glock frame has withstood 30,000 rounds of constant fire with +P ammunition. 

Wow.  That’s amazing information. (wrong, but I guess technically it could be considered information). 


So yes, HK may be overpriced in your opinion, but you do get what you pay for.

Best $500 gun you can get for $800! 

And if you are happy with your Glock or Taurus then I wish you well and happiness. 

And I wish you well in your continuing struggle against your Lava Man oppressors.

But please realize that your disdain for such a well made piece of engineering is only due to your own ignorance of the products.

You got me there.  All those years I sold machine guns, and I never even realized I didn’t have the proper licenses to even let people touch the HKs!   Good thing HK sued all the airsoft companies and people making .22s into oblivion, or some regular civillian might actually, you know, shoot one, or something.

Thank you.

No really, thank you.  I can’t make this kind of stuff up, and whenever I’m out of ideas of things to make fun of on my blog, one of you guys turns up.  What would I do without you?


Lava Man poster, courtesy of Miguel of Gun Free Zone.

I have the coolest fans ever
Signing stuff

82 thoughts on “Someone is wrong on the internets!”

  1. I have a good deal of affection for the USP, but I’ll be the first to admit that it is not worth more than $500 in any incarnation.

  2. Speaking of GSG5’s, was at the local fun show today and one dealer scowled at me for referring to it as an Instant Collector’s Item, and the other sold out after I said it…

  3. This is where those hypothetical internet questions are born.

    Have you actually engaged in a gun battle on Mercury? In Hell? “Hey, Satan, take that! click Oh no! The fires of Hades have melted my spring cup to my firing pin channel liner! NOOOO!”

    …..ok if you HAD to engage in a gun battle in Hell… what pistol would you be taking?

  4. I hear the following coming back from fellow soldiers deployed to “Iraque,” or that other quaint theater, Afquanistan. (smirk)

    1) NATO standard ball 5.56 MM cartridge just doesn’t have the stopping or penetration power needed for many urban operations.

    2) Those who can get rid of their Beretta 9MM pistols for something heavier, do. — one senses Browning’s smile from heaven as the M1911 is yet again finding its way into the eager hands of Army and USMC personnel overseas.

  5. Steel internals hardened all the way up into Rockwell A scale? Heck, Files are usually ~RC 65 or so. And kind of brittle even there. Gun guts made glass-hard? Don’t drop it – You’ll never find all the pieces. And yet this isn’t a problem. HK must truly be masters of metallurgy to pull that off.

  6. As a current advisor to the Iraqi Army, the ammo of standard over there is 9mm and 5.56, love it or leave it

    Most of the IA officers (EMs don’t have pistols mostly, status symbol….) carry Glock 19s and Walther P99s. Why? cause its what they were issued and what they have ammo for. None has, to date, melted in the fires of Iraq, except maybe in a vehicle fire. In our 10 months here so far we have not expended a single pistol round in anger (nor much rifle or MG rounds either). I carry a M9 redone at ANAD in June of 2004 and it has never malfunctioned and I did put my own Crimson Tace grips on it as they make a mediocre pistol shot that much better. Both teams of ODA near us in SInjar carry M9s as well, cause its what they have. Would I rather have a Glock 21 or better yet a Remington Rand M1911A1…yes! But I don’t, and neither do the ODAs. Neither do we have the ammo. I did see some teams from 3rd Group in Afghanistan carry M1911A1s and Glocks in 2003, but they had them and I didn’t.

    The 5.56 is pefectly suitable for killing work in urban situations under 250 meters. It’s not optimal but it is what we have. Most of the attacks on outposts here have been long range ambushes with PKMs, RPGs and mortars and were useful in getting the IA to send out a QRF that promptly hits an IED and does induce casualties. Our IA Division has M16A2 and M4 Carbines made by FN. Would I rather they have AKs…yes! But they don’t cause then they wouldn’t look like us. And because we are the strongest tribe they want to look like us. Believe me maintenance and ammo would be easier if they had AKs. But they done. To Date none of those weapons has melted either. Most servicemembers do not have a choice in what weapon they carry. I carry both an M4 (with PEQ-2 and M68) and an M9 cause that’s what they gave me.

    A pistol is only useful in this fight to fight your way to your rifle or better yet machinegun or radio (so you can kill the enemy the very best way– from a distance and safely).

    Here endeth the lesson.


    LTC Joel Hamby

    11th Brigade MTT

  7. “And if you are happy with your Glock or Taurus”

    Or Sig or Kimber or several STI’s or Springfields or Abomination. . . . . .

    “then I wish you well and happiness. ”

    If you are happy, then I wish you happiness. But we all know it won’t happen because only HK owners are truly happy.

  8. Note to self: do no read Larry’s blog while eating and/or drinking. The Lava Men from Iraque almost claimed a real victim today.

    1. Same here, deadly comments if read while imbibing and quite possibly now forever enshrined in online inside references.

      (FYI – Safety Warning – Lay off the whisky while reading Larry’s blogs, single-malt burns sinus membranes badly coming out…)

  9. Glocks melt? Uh, when?
    Three years ago, to celebrate my birthday, I took my G17L and all but one of my mags to the range. There I loaded the mags and attached the Bubits shoulder stock. I shot 240 rounds in 3:52. The muzzle burnt the wooden panels against which I leant the gun and the barrel changed its color a bit but nothing ‘melted’.

    Now, try that with an HK! If you’re wealthy enough to afford the mags to load 240 rounds…

      1. I did actually attach a shoulder stock to Glock 17L.

        But I did so in Germany, where no SBR-registration is needed, no $200 tax stamp has to be paid when you attach a shoulder stock to a P08, BHP, Glock or similar. There are even conversion kits turning Walther GSPs into .22lr semi-auto rifles.

  10. “Lava Men From Iraque” would be a great name for a rock band…

    And an even better movie for the SyFy network.

    …And wait a minute. I thought Demo Dick Marchinko was by his own admission a convicted felon. Isn’t it a crime for him to even have a gun in his possession, even for a book jacket photograph?

    (Full disclosure: Yes, I’ve read the “Rogue Warrior” novels. I’ll even admit to liking them, in a ROTFLMAO sort of way. In fact, several of them would make great SyFy movies as well…)

    1. Only if it was a real gun. Very realistic non-gun models (including airsoft and a variety of “blank only” cap guns) are available from Japan and China.

      Since the Japanese effectively cannot get real guns, their gun nuts collect these imitations.

  11. Oh shit. Do lava men go down with a head shot like zombies? Does anybody have a drill for dealing with lava men before the gun melts?

    Economy. Health Care. A new war in Iraque. Zombies. Lava men. I have no backwards loaded magazines in the bunker! We’re screwed!

  12. Whenever my Warcraft characters fight Lava Spiders in the Burning Steppes they use …. things other than H und K pistols.

    Sorry dude.

  13. Wait a minute, lava men from Iraque? Aren’t they allied with the mole men? I think I need another gun. Or two. Maybe some ice bullets or something.

  14. Also, the Rockwell scales used for steel are B and C. C is for hard steel, B for softer steels, brass and aluminum. The others are for specialized applications. 65 on the C scale is as hard as steel gets, and gun parts are typically 35-50, depending on application. Harder would be bad, and lead to what could technically be called “Shrapnel.”

    The A scale is for thin, hard sheet materials, such as tungsten carbide. However, a 72 on the A scale is approximately a 43 on the C scale (there is no direct conversion, as they use different methods for testing), which is exactly where it should be. Do Zer Wunderguns use tungsten components?

    1. I think the best way to get what you want is to get an HK t-shirt and then take it to your local screenprinters and have them adulterate it.

      They can’t do a thing to you if you’re using official HK merch and modifying it, any more than Levi-Strauss can come after you for making some cut-offs from worn 501s.

      I suppose you could even sell an iron-on transfer that just says “Because you suck. And we hate you.” in big bold red letters as long it it doesn’t have the HK logo on it, but it would fit fantastically across the back of that shirt.

      Maybe it could even be spaced well to line up certain letters, such as:

      Because you sucK
      &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp And we Hate you.

  15. Here in Afghanistan, I’ve seen soldiers from just about every country in NATO (still working on spotting the elusive Icelanders…) and there’s only one country that carries HK pistols…the Germans.

    The number of countries carrying HK pistols (1) is vastly outnumbered by the number – FOUR – carrying the positively antique Browning Hi-Power (UK, Australia, New Zealand, and Belgium.) Although in fairness, the Brits are phasing out the Brownings after over 6 decades of service and replacing them with…SiGs.

    They’re also outnumbered by countries that issue Glocks, with two – Holland and Norway. And the Dutch troops, BTW, actually conduct full-spectrum COIN ops out in Uruzgan. Unlike the Germans and their HKs.

    As far as rifles go, the Germans aren’t totally alone in using the G36. The Lithuanians do, too. But here again they’re outnumbered by the number of countries that issue their troops an antique, but still very effective, weapon, this time the Kalishnikov. The Poles (they have a brigade in Ghazni province, working for the US 2-star in Bagram, conducting full spectrum COIN ops), Romanians (a battalion working for TF Stryker in Zabul province), Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Macedonians all carry versions of the AK.

    Even when it comes to PSDs, I’ve only seen two guys carrying HK products – solitary examples of both the MP5 and MP7. All the rest carry M4s, with the notable exception of the Poles, who carry stubby, tricked-out AKs.

    So there you have it. In a real world combat zone, almost nobody except the Germans actually carry weapons made by HK.

  16. They could try to sue you over a shirt, but parody is protected under the First Amendment.

    I would say that HundK makes the best $300 pistol you can buy for $800, and the best $500 rifle you ….well, generally can’t buy.

  17. Also, if plastic melts in “Iraque,” why haven’t the wooden stocks on AKs, Mausers, SMLEs, Steyrs and all the other weapons used there in the current conflict, Gulf War, Yom Kippur War, Six Day War, WWII, WWI and various local uprisings ever caught fire? Or the grips melted off any of the more modern pistols?

    1. Mike,

      It’s well documented that you can get an AK to burst into flames.

      You just have to shoot more ammo at once than most Third World armies issue their people.

      Hell, I detempered the spring on the delta ring of an M16A2 to the point the handgaurds just fell off. Only took me about 15-20 magazines on BURST.

      Rick R.

      1. Besides, the Lava men probably have H und Ks already.

        ‘Cause the Lava men hate us and think we suck as well.

      2. I think Peter Kokalis ran an article showing an AK catch fire on a snowy day in Colorado. Couple of RPK drums will do that to any gun that isn’t 100% steel.

        Abuse hurts.

        Given my experience with Sgt. Mickie K’s People’s Assault Carbine and the Teutonic Wunderbricks, I’d say that anything that DAMAGES an AK would cause an HK to come apart at the spot welds. . .

        Because AKs are designed to be used by illiterate Uzbeks who don’t even speak the same language as their NCOs, officers, and drill instructors, and HKs are designed to be used by Four Knuckled Aryan Supermen.

  18. Sigh, what a bunch of maroons. I like my USP .40, but I like it because it’s my first pistol, not cause some fuckhead on tv uses it, or because I saw it in R6. It’s big as hell and weighs about the same as my Saturn, but I know that if I run out of ammo, I can always beat the BG to death with it. Got a long list of other guns I want to buy, and there isn’t anything from K und H on it.

  19. I’ll second Ted. I too love my USP .40 in part because it was my first pistol (purchased used for 450 w/o barrel wear – not something I’d spend 800 on). However, I also love it FOR its awkward size and grip because it just happens to match my own awkward hand nicely. Plus, I was able to get a buttload of 10 round mags when a certain website had them for 4.99 a pop. Of course, if I need to BEAT a BG to death with it I am way in over my head, but…

  20. Let me preface this with the disclosure that I do own a USP9-C, and love it to death. It’s no 1911, but it’s a good pistol.

    That being said, my years in the cell phone industry have taught me something important. H&K owners are like iPhone owners. We’re possessed by the irrational belief that because our product is more expensive (and therefore exclusive) it’s just that much better. We’ll defend to the death every bit and piece of them, and tear apart the competition over the slightest flaw.

    On a related note, probably selling my USP this weekend and tracking down a 1911…oops?

  21. Just so you all understand, I never realized what Gun Geekitude really was… Until I visited this thread.

    Y’all got some serious firearms edumacation!

    I never knew Hechler & Koch weapons were viewed so dimly by so many people.

    Rainbow Six Mall Ninjas… LMAO! Like Embrionic Rockabilly Polka-dotted Fighter Pilots.

    I’ll have to remember that one.

    1. “Gun Geekitude” ? Why do I suddenly feel like I am carrying an NAA .22 in a pocket protector? I was going to protest loudly and throw down the gauntlet but then I remember somebody made a sniper app for the IPhone… it does not get any geekier than that.

    2. Brad, becuase many of us have vast hands-on experience with many different guns, often as what the HK fanbois call “operators”.

      The MP5 was one of the best SMGs to come out of the 1950’s. (The Uzi is arguably better, especially dollar for dollar — the later Mini-Uzi was definately better. There’s a REASON the German Army issued the Uzi for over 40 years, and is only NOW phasing it out.)

      The only reason the Germans adopted the G3 was that the Belgians refused to work out a licensing agreement for the FAL. (Funny, why wouldn’t the Belgian national arms factory be all ready to re-equip the new German Army. . . it’s not like Germany ever invaded Belgium without warning. . . oh wait. . . )

      1. Disagree … the PPSH-41 is a better SMG than the MP5 … and apparently the US Army agrees with my assessment, as they are using them now in Iraq instead of buying H und Ks.

      2. Kristopher —

        The fact that a handful of US soldiers have picked up PPSh41’s as battlefield trophies and are using them doesn;t indicate that the US Army thinks it’s a better SMG than the PPSh41. It means these kids (who look like Marines, BTW — wrong uniform for US Army) think it’s a better gun for CQB than their issued M16s. Just as there are other photos of US Army soldiers keeping AKs in their vehicles as buzzguns for ambushes, these photos establish NOTHING about US ordnance standards.

        If you look, you’ll find pictures of almost ANY side’s soldiers, from ANY war, using weird pickup guns. Proves nothing.

        The MP5 is better, in certain specific roles, to earlier SMGs. “Tank rider” on a T34 would not be one of them. Nor would “Human wave of screaming Uzbeks”.

        However, I would not want a PPSh41 as my first choice as a bailout gun for a tanker or as an entry gun for a SWAT team. An MP5 is better for either role, and an M4 is better yet.

        However, I’ll still argue that the Uzi is still better than the HK MP5 (and even the GERMAN Army agrees with me).

        Heck, if you want to go WWII SMGs, I’ll say the Suomi is better than the PPSh41 except in penetration, and the PPS43 or Sten MkII beat the PPSh in terms of “bang for your buck”.

        But the PPSh41 is a sweet SMG. Sure it’s long and heavy — but it’s nicely controllable. As SMG shooters prove in square range contests all the time.

      3. Edit:

        “doesn’t indicate that the US Army thinks it’s a better SMG than the _MP5_.”

        rather than

        “doesn;t indicate that the US Army thinks it’s a better SMG than the PPSh41.”

        Note that, except for very limited cases (like SF deliberately using non-US weapons to blend in) the US Army doesn’t issue SMGs to ANYONE. They replaced the SMG with the M4 and M4A1. Unfortunately, they then also replaced several RIFLE roles with teh M4 and M4A1. . .

      4. I’ve fired both in competition, dude.

        The PPSH makes the HK shooters cry.

        It’s that much better. Sometimes complicated is bad.

      5. Kristopher —

        I’m not saying the PPSh41 is BAD, nor that the MP5 is automatically BETTER.

        There are places where the PPSh41 rules. If weight and space aren’t a consideration, or penetration and or high rate of fire IS, the PPSH41 is going to outperform the MP5.

        And there are places where having an gun that is LONGER than an M4 carbine with the stock fully extended, and which UNLOADED is heavier than a fully loaded M4 is not optimal.

        Likewise, an MP5 is both lighter and shorter (even with the stock fully extended) than a PPSh41, and sometimes, that matters too. And while I wouldn’t want to get hit by a 7.62mm Tok round (Hell, I don’t even want to get hit with a .177 BB), I think the 9x19mm Parabellum has slightly better terminal effects. (Not that that is all that important if you’re dumping 3-5 rounds into the target in one burst).

        Personally, aside from the nature of SMG contests (where the situation is necessarily somewhat artificial), given the VERY limited utility of SMGs, the MP5 is going to fit the real world mission better, if only based on compactness.

        But I’ll take a Mini-Uzi over either, and an M4 over any SMG, unless I absolutely COULD NOT stow a carbine, or I was planning on only using is a suppressed CQB gun (in which case I want the heaviest bullet I can throw, since my velocity is going to be subsonic most likely, and my range limited to about 21 feet).

      6. Rick R: Do you have real experience in either competition, or the military?

        Or are you just repeating other people’s opinions?

      7. Yes, Kristopher, I have military experience, including teaching US and foreign soldiers how to operate infantry weapons. Both US-issue, and a handful of selected foreign weapons.

        My SMG competition experience is limited to watching a few, and reading about a lot. Since I do not currently OWN a SMG, my interest in SMG competitions is wholly focussed on course design.

        My PPSh41 experience is limited to less than 300 rounds (about the same as my MP5 experience, and twice that of my M3 Grease Gun experience). Most of my SMG experience is with Stens, Sterlings, and Uzis.

        Fact is — I liked the PPSh41, even when seeing it’s faults. It’s a damned fun gun to shoot. If I were equipping a horde of illiterate Uzbek conscripts to go launch human wave attacks, and PPSh41’s were available at a good cheap price, I’d certainly consider it. (Gee, that would be exactly what the RUSSIANS designed the damned thing for in the first place!)

        All that weight does certainly make it very controllable compared to other high ROF SMGs, especially if you like to show off the high rate of fire in casual looking (but highly accurate, if you know the gun) bursts.

        But the PPSh41 was no more forged in a cauldron in Baba Yaga’s walking hut and quenched in the blood of Tartar prisoners than the MP5 was. It’s just a Goddamned buzzgun, and not a particularly compact one.

        What about my comments strikes you as untrue?

        1. The PPSh41 is longer and heavier than a whole slew of modern arms that hit harder and farther out?

        3. That there’s a LOT of times and places where the ONLY excuse to be using a SMG instead of a rifle are places where the smaller size and weight of a modern SMG is more appropriate than something bigger and heavier than the standard US infantry rifle?

        3. That COMPETITION experience, as nice as it is, is limited by the fact that safety and competition requirements do force a bit of artificiality into the mix; which is (to use a VERY extreme example) why you don’t see IPSC Unlimited handguns or the absolute tricked out space blasters used in much of 3-gun in everyday cop or military use?

        Kristopher — you seem to have a reading problem.

        I’m not an HK fanboy. Never have been. Prefer the Uzi (Hell, I prefer the Sten and Sterling!) to the MP5. ABSO-FRIKKIN-LUTELY HATE the rgonomics on pretty much everything else they offer. Not impressed with the performance of most of their longarms, and seriously dislike the abuse of shooting an HK91 or G3 compared to an FAL or M14. I’d rather go into combat with a bloody Garand than a G3. The P7 is a Negligent Discharge joke, gas retarded blowback is one of those “well it looks cool so we keep trying to make it work, even though it FAILS in the real world each time” Teutonic “theoretical” solutions to nonexistant problems.

        I will admit that I strangely do not have too much trouble with the ergonomics of the HK33 family or the MP5 — they don’t feel like I’m snuggling up to well-primed lumber like the entire 7.62x51mm and handgun families of HK do. But I’ve not fired the 5.56mm rifles, so I don’t comment on them.

        I am willing, however, to accept that when the MP5 came out SEVERAL DECADES AGO, that it was ONE of the nicer buzzguns going — for the ONLY work left for buzzguns at that time (basically SWAT type CQB and bailout guns for tankers).

        NOTE — these happen to be about the only two SMG roles the PPSh41 is bad at, both for the same reason — it’s size.

        So Kristopher, it’s pretty apparant (and I re-read my comments to make sure they couldn’t be misinterpreted by anyone fully literate) that I am not an HK fanboy of any type.

        It is also pretty apparant that YOU are a fanboi yourself. Anyone who dares whisper the least criticism (no matter how accurate) of your beloved PPSh41 must be smashed.

        Humorous, really, given your comment below:

        Kristopher, on October 29th, 2009 at 8:22 pm Said:
        Isn’t it?

        Say anything unkind about H&K and the counterstrike fanbois come out of the woodwork like rabid sheep emerging from the wainscotting.

      8. Thank you for that … I’m just going by the past track record for this blog. Whenever Larry says anything that an H&K fanboi might take amiss, they do lunge out of the woodwork.

        Asking you what your past experience was on the matter was pretty much required.

        We will have to agree to disagree then. My experiences have left me finding the MP5 wanting. If I have to have it in 9mm, I’ll get the Finnish Suomi instead, and call it done ( although my PPSH functioned just fine with a 9mm barrel ).

        I do with this damned NFA crap could get straightened out … I could afford to own class III firearms again, and we could simply settle this argument at the range.

        But, I had to choose between carrying debt, or owning a PPSH and a Galil, so they got sold.

        This may be a case of “my gun is better than all others” syndrome … but I am just not impressed with the notion of using a closed bolt action for an SMG.

        ( I do still own a Lahti … but using it instead of an MP5 to clear a house might damage the building a bit. )

      9. I think the main thrust of most of the anti-H&K comments here is based on H&K ‘tude towards us mere civilians.

        If they were not such assholes about selling their product, we might cut them a bit more slack.

      10. Kristopher — I think a lot of the disagreement in utility falls into one basic cause.

        You seem to be evaluating the MP5 vs. the PPSh41 in terms of what SMGs were designed for in 1940. PPSh41 is far and away a better gun for that purpose — more often than not, it was used to replace a bolt action rifle that’s twice as long and about the same weight. The PPSh’s length and weight are not advantages, and the weight is likely an advantage in controllability.

        I’ll say it again — if I had a rifle section equipped with bolt action battle rifles, and you offered me the choice of a couple of MP5s or a couple of PPSh41s to replace a few of those, I’ll take the PPSh in a heartbeat.

        But I’m evaluating the MP5 vs. the PPSh41 in terms of what SMGs are good for NOW. Small, compact weapons designed either to work as bailout guns that won’t slow you down while you’re unassing a burning track, but provide better defence than a pistol; or as dedicated CQB weapons for forces that don’t plan on shooting any farther than room’s length, but DO plan on shooting while manuvering through really tight places. In both of these scenarios, the PPSh’s SIZE play against it. The MP5 is better in those circumstances primarily for the same reasons that a Chief Special .38 snubbie generally beats a 4″ Model 586 .357 for concealed carry in “business casual”, even though the 586 is nominally a better gun.

        If I had to equip an entry team, and it’s a choice between a PPSh41 or an MP5 as the main long gun, I’ll take the MP5. It’s simply smaller and less likely to get in the way, WITHOUT unduly sacrificing needed accuracy or power.

        The PPSh IS more fun to shoot than the MP5. On full auto, it’s more fun to shoot than any rifle in full auto I can think of. But the CONOPS (Concept of Operations) it was designed for is no longer valid — the role the PPSh was primarily designed for has been taken over by assualt rifles. (Much the same has happened to the MP5 and the current field of “assault carbines”, BTW — but at least the MP5 was designed for teh role, even if it has since been surpassed.)

        The fact that a PPSh41 isn;t best for modern SMg roles is of no more importance than the fact that the M4/5.56mm combo isn’t designed to “kill or maim” a horse at 1000 yards with one round (unlike most earlier US service rifles). The fact that the MP5 isn’t as good at WWII-style infantry employment is of no more importance than teh fact that the M1 Garand/.30-06 combo wasn’t designed to be controllable in automatic bursts.

        Different guns, designed for different jobs, in different eras.

  22. “…and then heat treated to the A class scale of RC hardness. Not the C or D class as the overly hyped Austrian counter part. ”

    The scale used has nothing to do with the actual hardness of the metal parts? WTH? Its just a range depending on the various ranges of hardness to be measured. A scale is for very hard, brittle metals, like steel and tungsten carbides. B and C are for a wider range of hard to somewhat softer metals, mostly steel. There is big overlap between A, B and C testing scales.

    1. Isn’t it?

      Say anything unkind about H&K and the counterstrike fanbois come out of the woodwork like rabid sheep emerging from the wainscotting.

  23. Train with the gun you have. Love it, care for it, count on it to be there when your life depends on it.
    If you can’t count on it, get one that you can.

    If you have an HK and like it, well good on ya.
    If you have the money for one but are not a “rabid fanboy” as has been pointed out here, take that money and go buy yourself two equal quality guns and some ammo and enjoy some time at the range.

    If it spits a bullet out the end of it reliably and reasonably accurately, fits your hand and “feels” right, shoot it.

    For me and my ham hands, a double stack style 1911 is perfect. Point of aim/impact are right on and I know I can work on the damn thing myself.
    If HK were to make one that I could afford, I wouldn’t mind shooting it, but I would probably prefer a Kimber or better yet, Browning made.
    Hey, the man invented the dang thing, I figure that his company knows how to build one. ;D

      1. Yes, but based on his genius. Every time I handle one, my inner voice shouts, “I love it and need to give it a name.”

        Let me throw you a bone. Best museum ever, the Browning Museum in Ogden, UT. For the admission price, you also get to see the train museum and some really cool old cars. Much fun to be had for the day.

  24. Allow me to add insult to injury:

    In the latest super-dooper ultra-realistic Tom Clancy shooter – Rainbow Six Vegas 2 (good mechanics, abysmal plot) – you can have the much-coveted G36K (or C or whatever).

    However, the Sig Commando AR is better. 🙂

  25. Every article that blasphemes the holy works of H&K is bound to recive eternal hatred of Mall Ninja Legion for they are Anonymus.

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