Monster Hunter Nation

A response to George R. R. Martin from the author who started Sad Puppies

When one of the most successful authors on the planet takes the time to talk about something you did, I figure that deserves an in depth response. I’ve got no direct line to Mr. Martin, but I am hoping that this will get back to him.

I am going to respond to some of the things Mr. Martin said to try and explain my reasoning. His words will be in italics, mine will be in bold. The link to his original articles is provided. Since I’ve read like 4,000 posts on this topic this week and written a novel worth of responses, I’ll not be going through everything he said and just be responding to things that I think need clarification or direct response. I will provide links to each of his posts so that you may read them in their entirety.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/417521.html

Let me begin with the basics:

Who owns the Hugo Awards?

You know, looking back, I am probably partly to blame for some of the misconceptions that seem to exist on this point. For years now I have been urging people to nominate for the Hugo Awards, and saying things like “this is your award” and “this award belongs to the fans, the readers.” I felt, and still feel, that wider participation would be a good thing. Thousands of fans vote for the Hugos most years, but until recently only hundreds ever bothered to nominate.

Still my “it is your award” urgings were not entirely accurate.

Truth is, the Hugo Awards belong to worldcon. The World Science Fiction Convention.

Mr. Martin, that is exactly one of the reasons I started this campaign.

When I started this the Hugo Awards were not portrayed as the awards that belonged to WorldCon. They were portrayed as the awards that represented the best of all of fandom. After my first experience seeing how the sausage was made, I publically said the same thing you said there, that the Hugo Awards don’t represent all of fandom, they represent one tiny part of fandom.

I was called a liar.

I too was nominated for the Campbell for Best New Writer. As a young, new writer, who had grown up reading the great ones, I was super excited by this incredible honor. See, I was born around when you got your Campbell nomination. I was one of those fans who grew up believing it when great authors said things like “this is your award” and “this award belongs to the fans, the readers”.

Because I was naïve.

I was overjoyed when I found out I’d been nominated. I was even dumb enough to think that I might have a chance. I had already read works from two of the other nominees and I knew that they were remarkable story tellers. I had read Wells and Beukes and knew the quality of their work was excellent. In any fair wordsmithing contest either could kick my ass, and I hadn’t even read Ahmed or Grossman yet, but if they were as good as the other two, then there would be a lot of quality works to choose from.

But that’s the kicker… I hadn’t realized yet that for many voters it wasn’t about the quality of the work. 

Within a few days of the nominations being announced I not only knew that I was going to lose, I knew that I was going to be last place. Only it had absolutely nothing to do with my writing, but rather, who I was, and what I was. 

I know you remember when you were starting out, Mr. Martin, because you talk about it in this very post, that scrimping, saving, and sleeping on couches phase of your career, where you are desperate to get your work out there in front of people, to get any exposure at all, and I’m betting that you were always really excited to hear what readers had to say about your creations. Right?

I know I was. So I went out on the internet and started searching my name, trying to find out what the buzz was for the Campbell nominees. I started calling friends who belonged to various writer forums and organizations that I didn’t belong to, asking about what people thought of my books in there.

You know what I found? WorldCon voters angry that a right-wing Republican (actually I’m a libertarian) who owned a gun store (gasp) was nominated for the prestigious Campbell. This is terrible. Did you know he did lobbying for gun rights! It’s right there on his hateful blog of hatey hate hate! He’s awful. He’s a bad person. He’s a Mormon! What! Another damned Mormon! Oh no, there are two Mormons up for the Campbell? I bet Larry Correia hates women and gays. He’s probably a racist too. Did you know he’s part of the evil military industrial complex? What a jerk.

Meanwhile, I’m like, but did they like my books?

No. Hardly any of them had actually read my books yet. Many were proud to brag about how they wouldn’t read my books, because badthink, and you shouldn’t have to read books that you know are going to make you angry. A handful of people claimed to have my read my books, but they assured the others that they were safe to put me last, because as expected for a shit person, my words were shit, and so they were good people to treat me like shit.

At first I was shocked, then I got angry. What the hell? This is supposed to be the most prestigious awards in scifi and fantasy?

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not lumping all of the WorldCon voters in with that perpetually outraged, politically motivated clique. I know plenty of voters read my books and just didn’t think they were as good as the people I was up against. Awesome. I salute you for you being an honest person with an honest opinion, and let’s face it, people have different tastes.

But don’t tell me now that the Hugos don’t have whisper campaigns…

Though I knew I still had fans voting, and I figured there were a lot of honest people who would give my works a fair shake regardless of my politics, I also spent most of my adult life as an auditor who did statistical analysis for a living. I understood how Australian Rules voting worked, and the rankings are not most popular to least popular, but rather least disliked to most disliked, and 72 hours after the nominations came out it was pretty obvious I was going to be most disliked.

Then I went to my very first WorldCon.

Mr. Martin, you talked about your positive, joyous experiences at WorldCon. How you were welcomed as a peer, about how you had all these great, wonderful, memorable experiences.

But I’m betting before your first WorldCon a whole bunch of malignant lying bastards didn’t spread the word to thousands of complete strangers that you were a racist, sexist, homophobic warmonger who deserved to be shunned. 

Side note, I’m not racist, sexist, or homophobic, but if that crowd (I’ll talk about the derogatory label my side uses that you don’t like in a minute) decides you are the enemy, they will smear you with those labels, regardless of the evidence. If you don’t believe me, read the many, many news articles about Sad Puppies that came out a few days ago working off that same script.

I met many wonderful people at that WorldCon. I also had many people treat me like garbage. I was berated by other panelists. I had people get up and leave the room when I entered. I had belligerent drunks challenging me at room parties because “Oh, it’s that fucker”. 

A lot of people will tell you now that I bring this upon myself, because I am rude and abrasive on the internet now. Yes. Now. But back then I was still trying to play it cool, and didn’t think I could have a successful career if I made the wrong people angry. It wasn’t until after that WorldCon that I said screw it, they’re going to hate me anyway, might as well state my honest opinions.   

So I mostly hung out with the Barflies, because they were cool. But I can hang out with Barflies at fifty other cons where I’m not assumed to be the second coming of Hitler because the internet said so. And while I hung out with them, I got to hear how many of them were shunned for various reasons too. 

Then I went to the award ceremony, and the parties, and the various schmoozefests, and I discovered that the Hugo Awards were like one great big In Joke. And the cool kids told their cool stories to the other cool kids, and lorded it over those who weren’t part of the In Joke. Honestly, it reminded me of high school, and I was the poor fat kid who had inadvertently pissed off the mean girls.

Then I got to meet and hang out with a whole bunch of authors, artists, and creators who spent most of the con bitching about how broken and biased the Hugos were. Some of these were old school, and got the In Jokes. Some were so talented, so famous, so successful, that it blew my mind that here they were at dinner, pissed off and angry that they knew they would never get any sort of consideration.

After the awards were over and all the cool kids patted each other on the back about how brilliant they were, and everything shook out pretty much exactly how everybody predicted it would anyway, they released the actual numbers for nominations and votes, and I discovered just how freaking tiny the number of people involved in this supposedly most prestigious award in the world was.

The winners were those who played the game, and as I sat there with the losers, I watched the game already being played for next year. As an author, I was sad. As a fan, I was disgusted. But as an auditor, I marveled at how something so statistically insignificant could be taken so seriously.

That was my first exposure to how the process really worked.

So I went home, dejected. And when I openly spoke about my experience, and I said pretty much exactly what you just said there, Mr. Martin, that the awards don’t represent all of fandom, and that they just represent one tiny, insular, clique of fandom… I was called a liar.

I was attacked all over again. I was told it was just sour grapes from a loser, but what could you expect from a shit writer, making shit product? The Hugos represent greatness, worthiness, and all of fandom. WorldCon is inclusive. How dare you question it?

So I said I would prove it, and I did. 

Here we are, a few years later, and oh how the narrative has changed. Now we are being told that the idea that the Hugos represented all of fandom and not just the tastes of one small convention were misconceptions. Now the most successful author in the world and editors for the biggest scifi publishing house are telling us that it belonged to just WorldCon all along.

Too late.  When people like me kept getting told that it represented all of fandom, we believed you. When you told us that if we wanted the stuff we liked represented better we should get more people involved in the process, we believed you.

And we did. Now we’re the bad guys.

((Never believe anyone who states loudly and repeatedly that they don’t care about awards, especially if they don’t care about one award in particular. Aesop saw through that okey-doke centuries ago. Boy, them grapes are sour. If you don’t care about something, you don’t think about it, or talk about it, or try to change the rules so you get one. The people who keep shouting that they don’t care if they ever win a Hugo are the ones who want one the most, take that to the bank)).

 

I am many terrible things, but dishonest is not one of them.

Let me clarify something, because I have been personally attacked for this for three years now. Yes, like most authors I dreamed of winning a Hugo, because I was very naïve. In the past I did very much want to win a Hugo. Just like I was dumb enough for a couple days to think that I might actually have a shot at winning a Campbell.

However, I know that I will not ever win a Hugo. I’m way too good at statistical analysis. I had a snowball’s chance in hell before I upset the apple cart and made myself radioactive to the typical WorldCon voter.

I launched the Sad Puppies campaign with the idea that if I could get authors with the wrong politics onto the Hugo ballot, I could prove to the world that the Hugos were in fact what you are all now admitting that they are. (Mission accomplished) Plus I wanted to expose that the perpetually outraged crowd would react with vehemence, vitriol, lies, and career sabotage, so that the world could see that our genre is overrun with bitter culture warriors who have politicized everything, and that if you had the wrong politics they would do everything in their power to destroy you (mission accomplished beyond my wildest dreams).

Not only did I know going into this that I would never win a Hugo, I also knew that I was going to make myself a target, and that I would be slandered, threatened, and have my career sabotaged.

But I still did it anyway.  

The thing I’m shouting about is bigger than just the Hugos. It is about freedom of expression, and the ability of authors to say what they want to say without fear. It is about exposing the malignant, destructive bullies who live to persecute others for crossing their invisible lines.

I got a nomination for my novel Warbound last year. The people I’m trying to expose rose to the occasion, formed lynch mobs and started attacking. I got a nomination again this year, for my novel Monster Hunter Nemesis, but I refused the nomination, specifically to prove that this isn’t about me wanting a Hugo. Apparently that still isn’t enough.

Allow me to demonstrate my conviction, and state for the record that I will never accept a Hugo award nomination for myself. However, I will continue to assist other authors who I believe have been unfairly blacklisted and shunned get theirs.


You will all have noted, no doubt, a common thread here: worldcon.

The Hugos belong to worldcon.

I am glad we are on the same page now.

If important people like you had said this to the people feeling disenfranchised before, then you wouldn’t be seeing this backlash now.

But instead of telling us the truth, that we were right and the Hugos belong to just WorldCon and didn’t represent all of fandom, my people were insulted, and told we were stupid, and that we liked stupid unworthy things. When an outsider dared to complain in public about how they would never get considered, they were told it wasn’t because WorldCon was biased, it was because they just weren’t good enough.

Worldcon continued… but the steady growth that had characterized worldcon through the 60s and 70s stopped. That 1984 worldcon in LA remained the largest one in history until last year at London. Meanwhile San Diego Comicon and Gencon and Dragoncon grew bigger than worldcon… twice the size, ten times the size, twenty times the size… Dragoncon even went so far as to break with a half-century old fannish tradition by moving to Labor Day, worldcon’s traditional date, a date that had up to then been inviolate. And why not? Dragoncon’s attendees were fans, sure, they were comics fans and Star Wars fans and cosplay fans, and some were even book fans… but they were not “trufans,” as that term was commonly used, and they didn’t care when worldcon was.

 

While WorldCon complains of the shrinking and greying of fandom, Salt Lake City ComicCon has been around for 2 years and has 150,000 attendees. For some people, books might not be their primary fannish outlet, but they still read books. Just because somebody plays Dragon Age or the Witcher doesn’t mean they don’t read fantasy novels too. Heck, I believe Halo tie in novels are some of the bestselling books in scifi.

If somebody was introduced to fantasy by watching Game of Thrones on HBO, and then they bought and read all your books, discovered they liked fantasy and read other books, and they thought some are awesome and deserving of an award, are they somehow lesser fans on the scales of fandom because they don’t know WorldCon trivia?

So do you not want those fans to vote in the Hugos because they don’t share the proud traditions of WorldCon, or not? Because I do.


(The term “trufans” is an unfortunate one in this argument, since some of the Sad Puppies and their supporters take it amiss, and understandly, when told they don’t qualify. The term is a very old one, however, probably dates back to THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR, a parody of PILGRIM’S PROGRESS about the search for “true fandom.” Like “SMOF,” it is at least partially a joke. And if any of this paragraph makes any sense to you, you are undoubtedly a trufan… but don’t worry, you don’t need to know what a mimeograph machine is to be a real fan, I swear).

 

Yes, part of the issue of why my side is very loud right now is that people like Teresa Nielsen Hayden have been very explicit that they aren’t welcome, and that they are the wrong kind of fans.

But now that we are talking terminology, let me explain why exactly the term SJW has come into common usage. Much the same way SMOF and trufan have taken on meanings representing groups with a shared mindset to your community, SJW has taken on a meaning representing a group with a shared mindset to my community.

The term SJW is way bigger than Sad Puppies, and predates Sad Puppies, and has entered the general lexicon of easily half our nation, but probably mostly the red state tired of getting yelled at half. We use the term SJW because it is far easier than typing out Perpetually Outraged, Searching For Offense, Quick to Accuse Racism/Sexism/Homophobia/Privilege/Patriarchy, Holier Than Thou, Politics Before Fun, Unholy Cross Between Communists and Puritans, Twitter Lynch Mob Forming, Career Sabotaging, Social Justice Crusaders.

The term has stuck, and shows up everywhere in America. Comet Guy with his “offensive” shirt did more to popularize the term SJW than anything my people ever did. It is here to stay.

And to contrast SMOFs, who are mostly normal, sane, good people, Brad came up with the term CHORFs for the really snobbish elitists, because unlike SJWs, we have a sense of humor


Other conventions have other awards. Wiscon has the Tiptrees. The World Fantasy Con presents the World Fantasy Awards, or Howards. The Bram Stokers are given by the HWA, the Nebulas by SFWA. Libertarians have the Prometheus Awards, though I don’t know where they give them out. I just came back from Norwescon, where they handed out the Philip K. Dick Award. We used to have Balrogs and the Gandalfs, but they went away. The Japanese have the Seiun awards, the Spanish have the Gigameshs, the Czechs the Newts. Australians have Ditmars, Canadians Auroras. Gamers have Origins Awards, comic fans have Inkpots and Eisners.

I don’t denigrate any of these awards. I’ve won an Inkpot, I’ve handed out an Eisner. I won a Balrog too, but it was smashed before it reached me. I have a Newt and a bunch of Gigameshs and even a Seiun. Awards are cool. Awards are fun. Or should be. I don’t expect I will ever win a Tiptree or a Prometheus or a Dick, but that’s fine, I applaud them all the same. Writing is a hard gig, man. Any recognition is a plus. Big or small, any award is a pat on the back, a way of saying, “hey, you did good,” and we all need that from time to time.

The difference is that none of those awards claimed to speak for the entirety of fandom.

The barbaric outsiders shelling out their $40 to get involved now grew up being told that the Hugos were it, the Big Deal, the best of the best, and like me, they were naïve enough to believe it for a long time.

Yet, as the Hugos became increasingly politically skewed in one direction, people can now admit that is because they reflected WorldCon, not all of Fandom, only for all these years Fandom were the ones being told that they were dumb for liking the wrong things. They were wrongfan having wrongfun.

If the Sad Puppies wanted to start their own award… for Best Conservative SF, or Best Space Opera, or Best Military SF, or Best Old-Fashioned SF the Way It Used to Be… whatever it is they are actually looking for… hey, I don’t think anyone would have any objections to that. I certainly wouldn’t. More power to them.

Mr. Martin, up until a week ago, nobody in the upper echelons of fandom or publishing would say that the Hugos belongs to just one tiny convention. They kept claiming to represent the best, most worthy things in our whole genre. And we had stuff that we thought was great and worthy too, but it was ignored or shunned, so why would we go start another award when there was a perfectly good award right there already claiming to represent us too?

We started doing this 3 years ago. Maybe, if 3 years ago some VIPs had come out and said what you’re saying today, we would have done that instead. “Okay, Sad Puppies 2013 or 2014, you are right, you really are outsiders, and we’re insiders and we want to keep this our thing, so go do your own thing” would have avoided a lot of trouble.  But you guys didn’t say that then, so you can’t get mad at us for taking you at your word that you represent everyone, and then get mad at us for not knowing the insider information that you guys claimed didn’t exist until last week!


But that’s not what they are doing here, it seems to me. Instead they seem to want to take the Hugos and turn them into their own awards. Hey, anyone is welcome to join worldcon, to become part of worldcon fandom… but judging by the comments on the Torgesen and Correia sites, a lot of the Puppies seem to actively hate worldcon and the people who attend it, and want nothing to do with us. They want to determine who gets the Ditmars, but they don’t want to be Australians.

 

I told my WorldCon experience above. I know Brad had a similar experience when he first got involved with WorldCon too.

Why do the many people involved in the Sad Puppies campaign seem to hate WorldCon? Because the SJW crowd (I know you don’t like that term, but it is the appropriate one to use here) hates my kind of fan, actively and routinely attacks my kind of fan, and calls them racist, sexist, homophobes without evidence, all day, every day.

I know the SJWs are only one small clique at WorldCon, however they are the loudest and the meanest. And sadly, the moderate, rational, normal WorldCon folks rarely seem to condemn them for their antics. So from over here on the Sad Puppies side, they take your silence and lack of condemnation against the hate mongers as tacit approval, and then they tend to lump you together.    

So why then would they want to attend when they are told their kind is unwanted?

Why would they stick up for WorldCon, when in their minds they think the silent majority of WorldCon attendees are the same as the vocal minority of crusading social justice crowd who actively and openly despises them?

WorldCon claims to be inclusive, but scroll through the various comments threads on the various fan blogs on my side of the fence and get their perspective sometime. SFWA also claims to be welcoming, inclusive, and apolitical, but again, read how they are really perceived by many. Snobbish, snooty, bossy, self-righteous, etc. Don’t take my word for it—you know I’m terribly biased—but ask them yourself.

 

The prestige of the Hugo derives from its history. The worth of any award is determined in large part by the people who have won it. Would I love to win the Hugo for Best Novel some day? You’re damned right I would. But not because I need another rocket to gather dust on my mantle, as handsome as the Hugo trophies are. I want one because Robert A. Heinlein won four, because Roger Zelazny and Alfred Bester and Ursula K. Le Guin and Fritz Leiber and Walter M. Miller Jr and Isaac Asimov and Frederik Pohl and so many other giants have won the same award. That’s a club that any science fiction and fantasy writer should be thrilled to join.

Yet honestly, with the current state of the Hugos, how many of those greats that you list would win today? Sadly, I think we both know the answer depends on how well they could play the game.

My personal favorite on there is Robert Heinlein. Hypothetical question, if Robert Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers in 2014, could he get on the Hugo ballot now? Or would he be labeled a fascist with troubling ideas, and a product of the neo-colonial patriarchy?

And before you dismiss that question, maybe you should read up on what the voting clique that shall not be named says about Heinlein now.

Sadly, I suspect the only way Heinlein could get on the ballot today would be if my horde of uncouth barbarian outsiders got involved and put him on our suggested slate.

[[Once again, comments and dissent are welcome, but I expect courtesy from all parties. And yes, that means those of you who are on “my side” as well. Let’s not throw around insults, or charges of misogyny and racism, please. And Puppies, sad or happy, if any of you feel inclined to reply, please avoid the term “Social Justice Warriors” or SJWs. I am happy to call you Sad Puppies since you named yourself that, but I know of no one, be they writer or fan, who calls themselves a social justice warrior. Offending or insulting posts will be deleted. We can disagree here, but let’s try for respectfuldisagreement.]]

We do not mind being called Puppies, but for the record we are doing this on behalf of Sad Puppies, because good books being excluded over political message dreck is the leading cause of Puppy Related Sadness.

We do not however like being called racists, sexists, misogynists, homophobes, fascists, hate mongers, the KKK, or wife beaters. Especially in major media outlets like Entertainment Weekly, Salon, Slate, the Telegraph, and io9. If you would like to compare the amount and level of vitriolic lies spread in this contentious debate, it is pretty obvious which way those scales are going to go.

As for the term SJW, as I said above, that isn’t going to happen at this point. It is entrenched. You might as well tell people not to say conservative or liberal, because though often inaccurate when applied to every single individual in a movement, they are useful, handy descriptors that get the point across quickly.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/417600.html

I find the above link to be an excellent article about the tone.

Yes, I do get angry, and yes, I have said some very mean things as part of that.

I know you’re not looking for excuses, Mr. Martin, but I’m a little nobody, no name, hack author, who sells a tiny fraction as many books as you do, who had the bright idea to expose the bias in a biased system. As a result I’ve had people who know better spread the vilest lies about me you can imagine, and even when they know it is a lie, they have continued.

For five years, nobody on your side said a damned thing about tone when I was the one being labeled a hatemonger, or a “rape apologist” by disingenuous SFWA presidents, or they were using fabricated “scare quotes” to show I was a homophobic woman hater in the Guardian.  

So, yeah, I’m angry. When people who haven’t talked to my wife since high school reach out to her, worried for her safety, because they read about how her husband is a wife beater, I get angry. Right now in about 50 blogs going out to I don’t know how many hundreds of thousands of people, the narrative is that I’m an angry white man, trying to keep scifi straight and white and male.

And the fans who got involved with Sad Puppies? It turns out that one of their primary motivators to finally get involved was that they watched all this happen live. And as more of them voiced their opinions, more of them were publically attacked too, which motivated more to jump in, etc. etc.  

But once we finally succeeded in making a big splash, and everybody started paying attention, and tons of people on my side are speaking up now too, and media outlets from the both sides of the political spectrum are reporting on it, and the insults are flying back and forth…

Now we get warnings about tone.

You know the most heartening things I’ve seen this week are? Writers who are my polar political opposites finally standing up and saying things like yes, Larry Coreia is an asshole, but he’s not any of these horrible things you are accusing him of, or yes, Larry Correia is an asshole, but please quit threatening to kill him and his entire family.

That’s been nice.

But yeah, I’ve said some pretty mean things during this debate, so you’ll have to forgive me if after the 1000th post calling me a bunch of things I’m not, I come off a little testy. When you have professional culture warriors like Brianna Wu and Arthur Chu, who make their livings off of generating political controversy, saying that Brad Torgersen’s two decades of interracial marriage is just a shield to hide his true secret racism, then yes, there is a serious tone problem.

People like us have been dealing with people like that for our entire careers. One of my goals was to get your people to notice it.

So thank you for calling for civility.

Personally, I will try to remain civil to anybody who disagrees and wants to debate, but I’m way past the point where I have any mercy left for people who just want to scream in my face, or the mind readers who ignore what I actually say and do to tell everyone what I really meant, and I will treat them accordingly. 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/417812.html

Mr. Martin, on this last post of yours, there is actually very little that I disagree with, and it is actually extremely nice to see a writer of your caliber and level coming out and saying this stuff. For that, I am truly appreciative, and I’m not just blowing smoke. I’ll explain why below.

The Sad Puppies and their supporters have argued that they are not the first to campaign for awards in our (not so) little genre.

They’re right about that, of course.

I’ve been around a long time. So has campaigning, by one means or another.

(I left out several paragraphs here about campaigning for the Nebulas, just because of space, because this blog post is already huge, but I would really recommend that everyone go and read the whole thing. The Nebulas aren’t the Hugos, but the communities are intertwined)

And what about the Hugos, you ask?

Yeah, there too. In the ongoing discussion of Puppygate, numerous people have cited one instance, wherein a stack of identical nominating ballots arrived with the same postmark, paid for by consecutive money orders. Those were disallowed. In 1987, members of the Church of Scientology campaigned successfully to place L. Ron Hubbard’s BLACK GENESIS on the Best Novel ballot. That was not disallowed — the Scientologists had done nothing illegal, after all, all they’d done is buy supporting memberships to a convention that they had no intention of attending, for the sole purpose of nominating LRH for a Hugo (hmmm, why does that tactic sound familiar?) — but their campaign created a huge backlash. Hubbard’s name was booed lustily at the Hugo ceremony in Brighton, and his book finished last in the final balloting, behind No Award. (The winner that year was Orson Scott Card, with SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, for those who are counting).

Of course, there were also recommended reading lists. That wasn’t campaigning, not strictly, but certain lists could have huge influence on the final ballot. The annual LOCUS Recommended Reading List, compiled by Charles Brown and his staff and reviewers, was the most influential. If your book or story made that list… well, it did not guarantee you a place on the ballot, but it sure improved your chances. NESFA (the New England fan club) had an annual list as well, and LASFS might have done the same, not sure. And of course the Nebulas, which came before the Hugos, carried a lot of weight too. Win a Nebula, and the chances were good that you’d be a Hugo nominee as well. Again, no guarantee, some years the shortlists diverged sharply… but more often than not, there was a lot of overlap.

One quick note, after SP2 made a little bit of a dent and I had said a bunch of things in public about the bias in the awards against people with the wrong politics, various incredulous fan bloggers started looking at it. These were people who don’t like me (which I am totally cool with) but they were honest, and figured my claims of political bias in this process would be easily disproven.

Except they ended up finding various things that indicated maybe all of us “right wingers” weren’t such liars after all. That prestigious influential LOCUS Recommended Reading List you mentioned? I think it has like 40 or 50 books but ZERO from Baen (a publishing house that gets a bad rap because it is willing to publish any author regardless of their politics, from capital L Libertarians to card carrying Communists as long as they can tell a good story).  Most of the other various lists from various pro places? The politics of the recommend authors are either unknown or overwhelmingly fell in one direction. You can guess which direction that is. 

Chaos Horizon picked two Hugo contenders to compare for 2015, one “right wing” (me, because of my showing during SP2) and one “left wing” (because this overtly political and opinionated author is a perpetual Hugo favorite) and they compared the buzz and reviews. What they found was so lopsided it surprised even me. Our books sold about the same, came out within a month of each other, and I had higher reviews on Amazon, except the left wing author had been plugged on ALL the recommendation places they checked. The right wing author was on ZERO.

So there were always these factors in play. Cliques, I can hear the Sad Puppies saying. Yeah, maybe. Thing is, they were COMPETING cliques. The NESFA list and the Nebula list were not the same, and the LOCUS list… the LOCUS list was always very long. Five spots on the Hugo ballot, and LOCUS would recommend twenty books, or thirty… sometimes more, when they started putting SF and fantasy in separate categories.

 

Yes, there were competing cliques, but the only cliques who mattered all looked virtually identical to us outsiders looking in. And hardly anything they ever nominated represented anything we liked. To most of us barbarian wrongfans, the competing cliques were indistinguishable from one another.

For example, correct me if I’m wrong but I believe with last year’s winners, every single one shared similar political viewpoints. And all but one of them was white, yet that year was hailed as a huge win for diversity.

You need to see this from Wrongfan’s perspective. You guys had competing cliques, but to us it was like an Eskimo having a thousand different words for snow, and you can tell us about your many diverse and wonderful types of snow, but all we saw was snow.

And in recent years when we looked at the ballots it was like, awesome, let’s choose between these five items of approved socially conscious message fiction. Yay! We’ve got selections from: religious people are stupid bigots, capitalists are raping the earth, capitalists are stupid bigots, bigots are stupid, and I’m not quite sure what the hell this last thing is about and I’m not even sure if it qualifies as fantasy or scifi but it has bigots in it… Oh man, tough call.

Again, now we can openly say that this all makes sense because my kind of people aren’t WorldCon regulars, and this award belongs only to WorldCon, so the stuff making the ballot wasn’t aimed at us… but sadly that wasn’t what you guys were telling us when we started this. This stuff was supposed to be the best stuff in the whole world.

So we formed our own competing clique and actually bothered to show up.


Bottom line, lots of people influenced the Hugos (or tried to), but no one ever successfully controlled the Hugos.

 

And I truly don’t want to either. I don’t want to be Hugo Pope.


That became even more true when we entered the age of the internet. Suddenly blogs and bulletin boards and listservs were everywhere, and there were DOZENS of people drawing up recommended reading lists and suggesting books and writers and stories. Sweet chaos. It was glorious. So many people talking about books, arguing about books, reading books.

That was also when the practice of writers blogging about their own eligible books and stories took root. “Say, the Hugo nominations are coming up, and I had a few things out last year. Hey, check them out.” Some people were deeply offended by this practice. (Some still are. Check out the blogs of Peter Watts and Adam Roberts on the subject, for instance). Others, especially newer writers and those hungry for attention, seized on it at once as a way of getting their name out there. Publishers and editors began to encourage it. Publicity and advertising budgets being what they were (non-existent in many cases), new writers and midlist writers soon realized that if they did not publicize their books, no one would.

And once it really got rolling, there was no stopping it. “Everyone else is doing it,” you heard writers say. “I have to do it, in self-defense.” They were not wrong. Sometimes the difference between making the Hugo ballot and falling short is a single vote. The writer who refused to self-promote and then fell a few votes short… ouch.

[And yes, I have done all this myself. Mentioned my own work, drawn up recommended reading lists, blogged passionately about people I thought deserved a nomination. I am not condemning the practice, just reporting on it. It always made me feel awkward, but like many of my friends, I knew that if I refrained and then missed the ballot by a few votes, I would be kicking myself. I’d sooner see the practice die out. But until it does, you have to play the game.]

Of course, not everyone was equally good at self-promotion. Certain subfandoms were better organized than others (the DOCTOR WHO fans, for instance). Certain writers were more skilled at social media than others, and built up huge personal followings on Twitter and Facebook, or through their blogs… numbers that soon translated to multiple Hugo nominations.

 

You have no idea how incredibly glad I am that you wrote all of that, Mr. Martin. After the week I’ve had… Holy moly.


And that was pretty much where we stood, until the Sad Puppies came along.

Last year I didn’t do anything different than what was listed above. I talked about it on my blog. I tried to motivate and rally people to get involved. I plugged stuff I liked. And all of a sudden there was a little clique of Wrongfan nominating for LonCon, just big enough to get one item into every category. We were no different than the other above mentioned subfandoms.

Yet, somehow, when I did that, I was a filthy villain, breaking all the rules, with no respect for tradition. Just as I predicted, there was a wrathful terrible public backlash from the clique which shall not be named, and even though I went into it knowing that none of us would actually win, once the final results came in, the leaders of the clique which shall not be named out of respect for Mr. Martin, moved the goal posts, and danced in our blood. Articles were written about how these horrible racist hate mongers were soundly driven from the sainted halls of WorldCon. Back beneath your rock, foul barbarians! And anyone who supported Sad Puppies was motivated by racism! Booooooo!

That reaction did more to cause the avalanche that was Sad Puppies 3 than anything I could have ever done. It proved exactly what I’d been saying all along. I was joined by a whole bunch of other people, authors, creators, artist, and fans, who said enough of the lies and BS and slander, now we’re in this too. We’re tired of the Hugo awards being a circle jerk of like-minded people telling each other how brilliant they are.

To be perfectly frank, some things changed between LonCon and SasQuan. I’d proved my point about the bias and attacks, and was ready to hang it up. They poked the bear, the bear mauled them, and now the bear just wanted to go back to his cave and be left alone. But Brad Torgersen is an idealist, Mr. Martin, I can’t accentuate this enough. He would be dead in Westeros in fifteen minutes. Brad is TruFan. That man waves his nerd flag high. He looks at the Hugo with adoration like it is some sort of religious icon with a halo around it. He prays to his altar of Saint Heinlein 3 times a day and lights candles for Frank Herbert.

If I was naïve at first, Brad makes me look… hell… I don’t even have a good comparison. So when he grew up hearing that the Hugos represented the Best of the Best, bright shining light on the hill, he incorporated that into the very fiber of his being.

And Brad figured that with my insane stunt of SP2 actually working, let’s make the Hugos represent more of fandom, fans like him and his friends. So instead of a thousand words for snow, we might actually  have some dirt, or grass, maybe even some trees, and no doubt some bullshit will show up once in a while, but damn it, our side is sick of freaking snow!

At that point Sad Puppies was no longer just about proving a point. It was about giving a voice to a whole mess of fans who didn’t think they would ever have one again. The mission changed, and it became about getting deserving worthy creators who would normally be shunned or ignored some freaking recognition for once in their lives.  It was time to stand up to the clique that shall not be named and their lectures about how we were having wrongfun.

Unlike the existing cliques, Sad Puppies 3 didn’t give a damn about politics, race, religion, or orientation. All we cared about was could they tell us a damned good story. The big game you describe, the campaigning, the favors, all that, our suggested slate was made up of the people who didn’t, wouldn’t, or couldn’t play that game. 

I have very mixed feelings about campaigning for awards. Part of me agrees with my friend Lisa Tuttle. Wouldn’t it be great if each reader could make his own nominations, without being influenced by slates or lists or mass mailings? It would also be great if all the children of the world could get together and sing in perfect harmony, but that’s not going to happen either. Like it or not, campaigning is here to stay.

I can see where this is going. I am a Worldcon member and a SFWA member, but I am also a member of the Writer’s Guild of America and the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences, which means I vote on the WGA awards and the Emmys… and so the flood comes in, DVDs and Blu-Rays and screeners and links to lockboxes, all full of TV shows and movies “for my consideration.” Way too many to watch. Way too many to count. Are there studios and directors and networks that don’t play the game, that don’t send out screeners and run ads in VARIETY and THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER. Sure there are. They are easy to recognize. They’re the studios and directors and networks who don’t win any awards.

Once you let the genie out of the bottle, he doesn’t go back in.

The Sad Puppies did not invent Hugo campaigning, by any means. But they escalated it, just as that magazine/publisher partnership did way back when. They turned it up to eleven.

If the people attacking us don’t chill out, more of my people are going to get pissed off, and it might hit a 12 or 13 next year. 🙂

 

Their slate was more effective that anyone could ever have dreamed, so effective that they drowned out pretty much all the other voices. They ran the best organized, most focused, and most effective awards campaign in the history of our genre, and showed everyone else how it’s done.

I used to be an accountant. We are monotonously efficient.

Truthfully, we never dreamed that we would block out whole categories with our suggestions. I underestimated how motivated my people became after seeing the childish, petulant, entitled reaction from the clique that shall not be named last year.

I’ve had a bunch of well-meaning SMOFs telling me that they nobody would be upset if we’d only gotten one or two things into each category, but that’s exactly what we accomplished last year, and they still freaked out at us.


The lesson will be learned. The Sad Puppies have already announced that they intend to do it again next year. Which means that other factions in fandom will have to do it as well. Just as happened with the “let me tell you about my eligible works,” the rest of the field is going to need to field slates of their own in self-defense.

 

Mr. Martin, we didn’t start this. We are the inevitable backlash that occurs when the pendulum swings too far in one direction.


I don’t look forward to that. It cheapens the Hugos. Will future winners actually be the best books or stories? Or only the books and stories that ran the best campaigns?

As far as we could tell, it was already like that.

Can all the king’s horses and all the king’s men put the Hugos back together again?

I don’t see how. And that makes me sadder than all those puppies put together.

My honest opinion is that to a gigantic chunk of disenfranchised fandom, we felt like Humpty Dumpty fell off that wall a long time ago.

If you want to talk about going forward, from here, I don’t know what to tell you about your campaigning cliques. They were already there long before we showed up.

But you really want to “fix it” and make sure my people don’t screw it up anymore, and keep the Hugos sacred? Well, right now the ball is in your court.

You’ve got people out there who supposedly love the award so much that they are organizing block votes for No Award against absurdly deserving yet consistently overlooked people like Jim Butcher, Toni Weisskopf, and Kevin J. Anderson, all to burn the whole thing down, just because my people violated your secret gentleman’s agreement and plugged them on a slate. As Brad Torgersen pointed out already, that sounds suspiciously like the story with Solomon offering to cut the baby in half.  And one mother saying, screw it, I’d rather the baby die than that bitch get him. (paraphrasing, obviously).

No matter how you change the rules, Sad Puppies will still obey the rules.  

First and foremost, you guys need to decide, once and for all, what the Hugo Awards really are. There are two choices.

  1. It is the most prestigious award which represents the best works in all of fandom.
  2. It is a little award, for one little group of people, at one convention.

You can’t have both. Pick one, stake your flag on it, and we will proceed from there.

If it is just WorldCon’s little clubhouse award, and some of us aren’t welcome in the clubhouse, then fine. Duly noted, and Sad Puppies next move will be predicated upon that.

But if it is the most prestigious award that represents the best of all of fandom, then that means that all of fandom, including us, gets to participate.

You can’t have both.

I think you will find that the people who are involved with Sad Puppies are willing to talk about the future, but we are very tired of being yelled at and lied about.

No matter what happens, whether you like the term for them or not, you guys need to calm your SJWs down, and tell them to quit forming angry twitter mobs, and scaring the hell out of authors who cross their invisible lines. Most of us aren’t big and successful enough to be immune to their inquisition. I’m fine. You’re doing, holy crap, like mega bucks piles of gold bars fine. But many regular authors are being intimidated by these bullies, having their careers damaged, and it isn’t right.

Anyways, I hope you actually read this, and if so, I appreciate you taking the time.

Sincerely,

-Larry Correia

Donations to help Shadowdancer's family after tragic loss of their child
The Weber State Creative Writing Class is now open
David Pascoe
Guest

Of course, Larry, we now have to get you a nomination to refuse *every* year. Just because…

Suburbanbanshee
Guest

The Puppy Buddha Correia, having renounced the Hugo, sat down beneath the bodhi tree and began to meditate upon the Middle Way of Science Fiction and Fantasy.

And the demons and concern trolls of social Mara began to dance and posture, trying desperately to distract him…. 🙂

Seriously, though, I give you all my respect for relinquishing the Hugo Award. May your award be great in Heaven, or at least pretty darned cool.

Ad Astra
Guest

Larry will have to settle for his Legion of Loyal Fans and dry his tears with huge royalties checks I suppose.

Jason Calley
Guest

Hmmm… how about this? Perhaps the Sad Puppies should start a meme that anyone voting “No Award” is actually voting for Mr. Correia. After all, he has already publicly and clearly stated that he will accept “no award” or nomination in the Hugo voting.

They could even have a nice celebration if “No Award” wins!

🙂

hammy007
Guest

Nobody also finds this ironc. A white man bitching about finally facing an ounce of “discrimination” in his life. Whining that he didn’t win anything because a couple people that he had to search really hard for thought he was a racist joke? This is a joke. Let’s screw over people who are exactly like you were in your younger days because you didn’t get your way. Grow the fuck up.

Michael Z. Williamson
Guest

Well, I think that’s a bit harsh about George. He’s very white and privileged, but I don’t think he’s intentionally racist.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

        But Mr. Martin is employing his white man’s privilege to live life on the lowest difficulty setting.  While we shouldn’t be too hard on him, let’s not let him off too easily either.

        And he does need to learn not to whine when he loses a fair fight.

Michael Z. Williamson
Guest

Oh,wait, I get it now. The real irony is the fanboi coming over here talking about “White” and “Discrimination” when Larry is Latino and grew up damned near a sharecropper.

But right, he’s FINALLY facing discrimination.

So, Hammy, exactly what ethnicity and class are you, son?

Hep C
Guest

As if you didn’t already now.

He is white, upper-middle class, and riddled with guilt over not having struggled ever in his life.

John B
Guest

You forget , SJW’s created a new race category “White Hispanic”.

Micah
Guest
I hope then that his wiki page is wrong because if it isn’t, this is the kind of misleading bullshit fit for a politician. Characterizing someone as being a Latino who grew up damned near a sharecropper in refutation of someone that that calls him white conjures up the image of a Latin American immigrant whose family toiled in someone’s tomato fields… which is horrifically and intentionally misleading if he’s Portuguese and grew up on his father’s farm. There’s a great deal of debate on whether Portuguese even qualifies as Latino, but it sure as fuck qualifies as white. Although… Read more »
Michael Z. Williamson
Guest
Michael Z. Williamson

There’s no debate that Portuguese are Latino. Unless you’re a racist fuck.

And poor is poor. Portugal is most certainly not a wealthy nation, and immigrants are immigrants.

And Hispanics and Latinos can be of any race.

But we see where your obsession is–if you can characterize someone as white, you can ignore everything else about their history.

I’m waiting for the first White African American. Or is that Allen West?

John C Wright
Guest

Hear, hear.

I also would not want to be Hugo Pope. However, if the College of Cardinals elects me next time to the Chair of Saint Peter, I will take the name Pope Hugo. Not the same thing.

Suburbanbanshee
Guest

Heh, I’d pay to see that one… but your wife might be unhappy about the celibacy requirement. Great library and nice rooms for the kids, though!

“Habemus papam! Legem Magistrum et Sanctæ Romanæ Ecclesiæ laicum Johannem Wright, qui sibi nomen imposuit Hugonis.”

Margaret Organ-Kean
Guest

Actually if elected Pope Hugo would still be married.

And once enthroned he would be totally qualified to say, “That celibacy thing? It’s a discipline, not a doctrine. Not all priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes need to follow it now.”

Whether he’d do this is a whole ‘nother question. But he certainly could.

Malcolm Robertson
Guest

As long as he was elected Pope before the Gregorian reforms, he’d be fine.

Mary
Guest

There are married priests to this day. It is, as Margaret said, a discipline, not a dogma.

Suburbanbanshee
Guest

Yeah, but married bishops have historically been few, because historically bishops and priests were bound to abstain from sex as well as food and drink before saying Mass. And bishops were saying Mass every day in times when most priests didn’t.

In the Eastern rites, the current rule is that married priests can’t become bishops; they take their bishops from among priest-monks or priests who did not marry.

Back in Alexandria in antiquity, Hypatia’s student who was made a bishop against his inclination was very unhappy about the effects of his sudden be-bishoping on his family life.

Marissa
Guest

I don’t think there are married bishops though. Correct me if I’m wrong.

keranih
Guest

I was taught that the original issue was with married bishops (not priests) because in the middle ages, dioceses began to collect (retain?) real property and wealth (gold communion cups, for example) that were inadequately differentiated from the wealth that a bishop (generally a person of the upper educated classes) himself held, and which could/should be passed down to his widow and heirs. One too many screaming matches over whether the bishop’s kids got something and Mama Church said ENOUGH, done with that option.

John C Wright
Guest

Actually, if elected Pope, my first pronouncement would be to reactivate the secular power of the Inquisition, declare a Crusade against the Mohammedans and the government of China, and appoint Skynet and Colossus (the computer, not the X-man) as archbishops.

Worst. Pope. Ever.

People would look back on the Borgias with nostalgia.

And then I would be struck with a lightningbolt out of a clear blue sky, agnostics would STILL call it a coincidence. Some people are just never convinced.

Differently
Guest

Data should be repeatable. I’m sure that some agnostics would be convinced something weird was going on if multiple Popes got struck by lightning when they did stupid things.
Of course, I’m pretty sure the College of Cardinals would stop electing stupid Popes before it got repeated enough to convince most skeptics.

The Writer in Black
Guest

Actually, if elected Pope, my first pronouncement would be to reactivate the secular power of the Inquisition, declare a Crusade against the Mohammedans and the government of China, and appoint Skynet and Colossus (the computer, not the X-man) as archbishops.

Worst. Pope. Ever.

I am reminded of the scene at the end of “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.” The main character is offered the purple. His response: “You would find me unsuitable. My first official act would be to have you all crucified.”

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Ah, but what color of smoke would emerge from the crater, and would that have any significance under canon law?

murph
Guest
Well no, this model agnostic would call it very weird, while acknowledging weirdness happens. After all, stand up comic Sam Kinison, who had a whole bit about how we have to drink and drive to get our cars and ourselves back home, and another where in he compared marriage to being in hell, was killed by a 17 year old drunk driver within days of his 3rd and hence final marriage. God may or may not exist, but if he/she/they/it does, Spider Robinson’s whole ‘irony’ attribute would seem to be part of it’s makeup. Ultimately, it would become one more… Read more »
PavePusher
Guest

Pffftttt. I’m fairly sure that the number of popes who truly kept celibate has been a significant minority, and mostly in modern times where communications spread the word of infidelity faster than pie at a country fair supper.

The Ubiquitous
Guest

Modern times’ communications? There’s the old joke that seminaries in Rome don’t have fire alarms, because gossip spreads fast enough already.

Keith Glass
Guest

You’re a sick man, John. Don’t change one bit. . . (grin)

Expendable Henchman
Guest

You horrible, right wing, sin hating badbeliever!

I’m voting “NO POPE”.

I’d rather burn the Catholic Church to the ground than have a Pope nominated by you SadSheep jerks!

Lesser Bull
Guest

Then you can issue a papal bull that rocket ships ought to land on their tails, the way God and Robert Heinlein intended.

John C Wright
Guest

Excellent idea. You will be one of my Legates.

Synova
Guest

So I’m not the only one overcome by fan-girl squee’s about Space X landing their rockets on their tails?

Herb
Guest

Not at all…in fact the “as God and Heinlein intended” line is one I’ve been using since their first attempt although I can’t remember where I picked up.

Harold
Guest

That sentiment was expressed in Steve Savitzky’s song “The Stuff That Dreams Are Made Of” (copyright 1998). Whether that was where you got it from (or indeed, whether that was where it originated) I cannot say.

http://steve.savitzky.net/Songs/stuff/

“But the future that we lost is still someplace out there
Orion still rides hellfire toward the blue,
And rockets proudly land upon their tailfins,
As God and Robert Heinlein meant them to.”

Sam Hat
Guest
All award competitions and their attendant ceremonies are, and always have been, a joke. They are, and always have been, a falsehood… a pretense at meaning. From the junior high pep-rally popularly elected MVP to the Hollywood Oscars, they are all as manipulated and rigged as last week’s pro wrasslin’ cham-peen-ship. Anyone who believes that they have any meaning whatsoever is precisely the type of moron who would actually buy a book or see a movie based upon its having won such an “award”. It is an illusion, people. So stop fighting over something that doesn’t exist. Go *write* something…… Read more »
60guilders
Guest

You weren’t impressive on Torgerson’s blog.
You aren’t impressive here.
Seeing as Correia actually writes stuff.

Sam Hat
Guest

At least I use my own f*cking name, boy.

😀

60guilders
Guest

And why should I believe you?
Answer: I have no reason to do so.

Christopher MacArthur
Guest
Christopher MacArthur

You know, Larry, I was once very close to the “leadership” of the “Boskone” Cons here in Boston (since renamed), and I have to tell you, if they were representative of the people who “ran” the Hugos, then yeah, a major problem existed. These characters felt that this was theirs, no one else’s. Screw the fans. They would choose what *they* wanted, because they were the only people who knew what should be lauded.

And, frankly, seeing and hearing him in action, GRR Martin reminds me *exactly* of that ilk.

Lisa Hertel
Guest

Boskone still exists and is run by NESFA, one of those list promoters: http://www.boskone.org, http://www.nesfa.org

Mary
Guest

They’re doing some good stuff. For instance, reprinting the works of such masters as Poul Anderson. . . they are currently on volume 6 of his short works.

DDA
Guest

They renamed Boston? Crap; nobody tells me anything!

Seriously, Boskone still exists and is still run by NESFA. Arisia also exists and is run by Arisia, Inc. and while some folks work on both cons, they are definitely separate and one wasn’t renamed into the other.

Herb
Guest

Is Boskone still in “exile” is Springfield? The only time I attended it was there and not Boston but that was…not quite 30 years ago?

Joshua
Guest
“If the Sad Puppies wanted to start their own award… for Best Conservative SF, or Best Space Opera, or Best Military SF, or Best Old-Fashioned SF the Way It Used to Be… whatever it is they are actually looking for… hey, I don’t think anyone would have any objections to that. I certainly wouldn’t. More power to them.” If gays want to have their own pizzas places that cater their weddings, hey, I don’t think anyone would have any objections to that. I certainly wouldn’t. More power to them. If illegal immigrants want to have an improved life in their… Read more »
Back from Space
Guest
You’re spot-on. His might not have been the same volume of foot-stomping temper tantrum as Bradford’s screed was, but it’s still a temper tantrum. It’s the pseudo-reasoned response of someone whose grip is loosening, and he don’t like it one bit, no sir. Mr. Martin, as a historian, here’s a little bit of advice from the years I’ve been studying movements such as what the SJWs (and I call them that to distinguish them from actual social justice activists) represent today: The revolution eats its own. Today, you might be their darling for speaking power to truth, but they *will*… Read more »
Doctor Locketopus
Guest

The odd thing is that Martin has been attacked by these people on numerous occasions. There’s no shortage of SJW ranting about the sexism and racism in GoT/ASOIAF (because Danaerys is a blond white woman, e.g.).

Granted, he’s big enough to be immune to such attacks, but one would think he’d have more pity for the little guys.

James May
Guest

If he were a little guy he’d be more than made aware he is an ethnic European heterosexual man, the cause of ills in the sick gender feminist ideology SJWs adopted for their own 5 years ago.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

James, googling “Game of Thrones racist” turns up some fine examples that you may want for your collection (assuming you don’t already have them).

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

The butthurt seems especially strong with a fellow named Aamer Rahman.

Suburbanbanshee
Guest

He’s got his own movie theater. I doubt he wastes much time Googling his name on the Internet. 🙂

James May
Guest

Let me take a wild guess: “Easterlings”?

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Oh, he’s got a whole graduate-level Angry Studies thesis.

James May
Guest

Yeah, I looked; “Easterlings.”

These very odd people seem to want Chinese to tell their own stories, Arabs to tell their own stories, and me to tell those stories too. Tough, I have my own.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Oh, but if you do tell their stories, you’re engaging in “cultural appropriation”, while if you don’t tell their stories, you’re “racist”.

The only way to win that game is not to play.

John R. Ellis
Guest

“Why can’t the gay rights people make their OWN boy scouts organization? Why can’t female comic book fans accept that the male super-heroes who get all the movies are just BETTER than their favorite heroines? And, seriously, isn’t it time the elderly realized that once they’re old society is right to pretend they don’t exist? If they want help and company, they just need to visit each other! Yeesh.”

….yeah, that part stunk.

Tony Sandoval
Guest

wow, take things way out of context much?

Joshua
Guest

No, actually. That’s EXACTLY the context in which he meant it. He just didn’t mean it to apply to the peasants.

John R. Ellis
Guest

Actually, I was trying to make the point that GRRM saying “Why can’t the unhappy people just go away and do their own thing” was kind of the very thing SJW always accuse the other sides of.

James May
Guest

By the way, who’s in the parade?

David, internet troll
Guest

Clearly, I missed the bulletin “Vast Right Wing White Male Patriarchal Conspiracy Inside Jokes for 4/9/2015.” What is with all the “Who’s in the parade?” stuff?

Marke
Guest

What a pitiful attempt to twist a legitimate comparison. And assert all only leftists are capable of compassion and empathy for their fellow man.

You disgust me.

John R. Ellis
Guest

No, that wasn’t what I was asserting. I was agreeing with Joshua’s point that George R.R. Martin’s attitude of “If you people are unhappy, just leave us to do your own thing” very much resembles the supposed attitudes they allegedly claim to combat.

Obviously, I did it poorly.

Expendable Henchman
Guest

No, you did it very well.

Quit apologizing. Making the other side apologize is how you win this game.

Retief003
Guest

I kind of agree with him.

The Hugos and the Nebulas aren’t just niches, they are too general niches.

I would love to have a Best Military Science Fiction category, or even an individual award with subcategories like short story, graphic novel, tv series, movie, videogame, board game, best new writer, series and lifetime achievement.

Same goes for a number of subgenres, like Hard SF, space opera, cyberpunk, and so forth.

Doqz
Guest

LC consistently reminds folks that he posts not to convert the entrenched liberals/SJWs but to reach the fence-sitters.

GRRM, from what I recall, explained the gap between the SoIaF books by the fact that he was so dispirited when Bush was re-elected that it resulted in a years-long writing block for him.

I suspect ‘moderate’ or ‘fence-sitter’ are not the terms that describe him and I suspect he is unlikely to be moved in his opinions. Still, you never know I suppose…

Joshua
Guest

Pshaw. Martin is no moderate. He’s just smart enough to start to realize that the histrionics that his fellow fascists have been engaged in are self defeating, so he’s striking a reasonable tone. But underneath that reasonable tone are the same fascist arguments that the hysterical have already put forward to no avail. Its just a posture. He’s not being reasonable, he’s being just a tiny bit cunning. And dishonest.

Kain Yusanagi
Guest

It’s Raph Koster speaking to GamerGate, all over again.

Gorgeous Steve
Guest

But that’s the thing. This isn’t exactly trying to convince GRRM. This is one of those essays that will be passed all over the Internet, and thousands of fence-sitters will read GRRM’s casual dismissal of the wrong thinkers, and LC’s calm, logical rebuttal and correction of each point. Whether it sways GRRM or not is immaterial.

Fence Sitter
Guest
Hi! Fence-sitter, here. I read GRRM’s LJ. Then I read this. I’m left-wing in my politics. I went to Loncon last year. I will never go to another Worldcon, even I, left-leaning, felt disenfranchised. I was bullied for not being a ‘trufan’ because I’d never been to a Worldcon before. Noticing how the voting worked… it’s a statistical nonsense. This article is exactly right. I don’t care what your political views are – I’ll read your books if they’re any good. I don’t appreciate people trying to tell me things are not good because they were written by someone with… Read more »
Doug Northcote
Guest

Welcome to the party pal!

Seriously. Welcome.

Samuel Marston
Guest

You get a standing ovation from me! Bravo!

tuco
Guest
I’ll say that as a fan of sci-fi/fantasy, whether it be books, comic books, movies, TV, action figures, RPGs, video games, and whatever else I may have forgotten, I like that I can run into someone like Fence Sitter above and we can most likely have a great conversation about our mania. I don’t have to give any more of a shit about your politics than you do about mine while we’re discussing whether or not 5e is the best iteration of D&D since 2nd (it is), that it’s a fucking crime that Firefly was cancelled before we got to… Read more »
Brian
Guest

Welcome to the land of Enjoyment and WrongThink. We are glad to have another person whom we can share books that we find enjoyable.

Greg
Guest

Holy heck, of course Shepard Book ordered the attack. Tuco, you brilliant bastard. Yup. That is absolutely the way Whedon would have (and probably did) set it up.

You a writer yourself? Because that one insight is enough to make me buysomething you wrote.

@votermom
Guest

It’s true – I was following GRRM’ lj back in 2003 and when Bush won reelection he was all like ” winter has come to America.” Although I suspect his block is more about chickening out about his planned ending, whatever it is.

Lea
Guest

Yeah, I don’t for one second think his writers block (any of them) have anything to so with politics. He just doesn’t want to finish his story. I think that’s why the last couple books were mostly treading water.

The show is gonna finish it for him though.

Synova
Guest
That he’s clearly left politically doesn’t mean that he’s not a “fence sitter” on the idea of inclusion in science fiction and at Cons. And while I’ve never actually talked to the guy I’ve done “fire marshal door guard duty” on his panels and “general hall monitor” for his book signing lines and from what I’ve seen he treats his fans with a great amount of respect… wait, I have spoken to him because he’s signed stuff for me… forgotten that. In any case! The thing is really… if your experience at conventions is warm and fuzzy and welcoming (even… Read more »
Feather Blade
Guest

Various people have been explaining that to *them* going to a con might have been fun and they might have loved it, but it also would invariably involve at least one moment of silently enduring outright abuse toward you or yours… and probably more than that.

You mean that GRRM and his warm and fuzzy fellow travelers might have to…check their privilege? ^_^

Zsuzsa
Guest
Eric Flint is quite literally a card-carrying socialist. He’s not a moderate or a fence sitter either when it comes to politics. But I believe he’s on “our side” when it comes to inclusion in sci-fi fandom. (He had a great essay some years back on why boycotting authors for their politics was a bad idea). Similarly, while Martin’s comments about Bush clearly indicate there’s no chance we’re making a Republican of him anytime soon, it may still be possible to convince him of the importance of being inclusive in fandom. His works at least (well, some of them) show… Read more »
Jeff Gauch
Guest

This is battlespace preparation for changing the Hugo rules at Sasquan. The only question I have is if that gambit is predicated on “no award” sweeping the fields, precipitating a crisis, or if the SJW’s are able to lock us out without broader trufan support.

C. S. P. Schofield
Guest

And if they manage to change the rules, then we can point out that their little award no longer has any meaning outside of their little clique. And won’t THAT be setting the cat among the pigeons!

AndrewV
Guest
Here’s the thing… Martin is a lot like an older Patrick Rothfuss. He’s a bleeding heart liberal who genuinely wants the world to be a better place. He’s not an SJW. He’s a man you could have a beer with while debating a point of disagreement and not have him smash you over the head with the bottle and say you deserved it. Martin is an idealist and I believe he sometimes mistakes today’s cries of unoppressed people for equality with the very real equality issues of the 60s. I would like to see him call out the SJW side… Read more »
Joshua
Guest
He’s not an idealist if he’s making excuses for why his favorite people should remain in power, and have their way and continue bullying anyone else who disagrees with them, and oh, hey, as I say something so ridiculously outrageous as this, I’ll try to paper it over with a transparently insincere mask of reasonableness. You can’t be an idealist while spouting about you’re a soi-disant one-of-the-good-guys who’s actually simply an elitist and clinging to power for your clique. There’s a famous phrase you may have heard; “By your fruits shall ye know them,” and those ain’t the fruits of… Read more »
Pugmak
Guest

Yep. This is the ol’ step up with a smile and talk and talk, saying nothing much, while his fellow travelers sneak up behind and plant the knife in.

Concern trolling as a distraction. That’s all it is.

Michael Z. Williamson
Guest

May I borrow your quote?

Joshua
Guest

It’s hard to read who this question is in response to, but on the off-chance that it’s me, absolutely. I don’t pretend to have said anything particularly brilliant or original anyway.

Elcrapocrew
Guest

I love this post.

A convenient litmus test to see if someone is being a hypocrite is to simply take something he/she thinks is good and apply the same logic or circumstance that he/she is trying to push on to you.

Quickly you will see that they are not looking for equality or acceptance, they are really after affirmation and overt repression of dissent of whatever their pet project or view happens to be.

Cara Halvorson
Guest

Oh bravo, sir, bravo!!

Jason
Guest

you forgot to add one more “if” example:

**if black people want to have their own drinking fountains or stores that cater to their blackness, i wouldn’t have any objections to that.**

when you leave that paragraph out, people might mistake you for reasonable.

Hep C
Guest
It’s funny, because it looks to me like a flipside of what is going on with GamerGate. Strange how when it appears to be their side that is on the outside of an entrenched fandom and trying to be heard it is an injustice beyond all human comprehension, but when someone is trying to make something they control more open and accepting to differing points of view? Oh, then it is still an injustice beyond all human comprehension. So it appears that the sole determination on whether an entrenched fan culture needs to make room for alternative points of view… Read more »
wysinwyw
Guest
A very obviously flawed analogy. GRRM isn’t suggesting Sad Puppies shouldn’t be allowed to participate in Hugo nominations — whereas you ARE suggesting gays should be excluded from pizza places, immigrants should be excluded from the US by immigration law, “cultural Marxists” should be excluded from public schools, etc. GRRM is suggesting that Sad Puppies should participate in the Hugo nominations as equal participants rather than a political bloc. I’m sure GRRM would likewise believe that all the “undesirables” to whom you draw your analogy should also be able to take part in various aspects of public life as equals*… Read more »
Michael Z. Williamson
Guest
Michael Z. Williamson

Sorry, who is proposing to exclude anyone from anywhere? Cite, please. Implied bigotry is obvious straw man.

And equal participants…who pay their $40 and vote. So, you’re saying that a poll tax and a literacy test aren’t “equal” enough for you.

“Bloc” = “the voters I disagree with.” Textbook liberalspeak. Because by definition, the ballot that wins was voted by a bloc who all voted similarly.

Stanislava
Guest
Thank you for sharing with us, Larry. Even though it’s quite long, it’s very well worth reading it. And I agree with you. I am a new writer and a Mormon and a woman. I don’t understand why gender, religion, sexual orientation, color of skin or political ideology should be anyone’s business – especially when it comes to writing or writing awards. I don’t shout my ideas from the rooftops and then yell at people, if they don’t agree with me. I want people to read my work, comment on that said work and not about if they like the… Read more »
Rob Thompson
Guest
Excellent letter, Larry. Unfortunately, I suspect it will fall on deaf ears. After all, Mr. Martin was one of the people leading the charge to keep the wrong people out. Robert Jordan is one of his particular bete noirs – you think it a coincidence it took until A Memory of Light before there was even the thought of an award. Terry Goodkind – same reasoning. Weber, Stasheff, Correia, Flint, Ringo etc. You all have these things in common – you write good stories, sometimes, exceptional stories; you believe in the freedom of the individual and you have a sense… Read more »
bjlinden
Guest

This is the first I’ve ever heard of GRRM doing anything to prevent Robert Jordan, specifically, from getting a Hugo. You wouldn’t happen to have any links to back that up, do you?

Zsuzsa
Guest
I’m not going to believe that one until I see some serious evidence. Martin’s fans tend to be somewhat hostile to Jordan, but as I recall, Martin himself has never said anything negative about the man; he’s given Jordan a lot of credit for ASoIaF’s success, saying that many of his fans first picked up Game of Thrones because of Jordan’s endorsement on the cover. He’s also put several little tributes to Jordan in the series: Trebor Jordayne, Lord of the Tor, and Archmaester Rigney (Jordan’s real name), who claims that time is a wheel. I suppose it’s possible that… Read more »
Lea
Guest

Martin’s fans tend to be somewhat hostile to Jordan

Really? How strange.

Zsuzsa
Guest
Anecdotal evidence only, but I definitely found that when I was a serious ASoIaF fan. On the various message boards I found a lot of Jordan-hate. It tended to fall into two categories: 1) The enthusiastic converts who believed that ASoIaF was OMG!!BEST THING EVA!!! and were determined to raise their idol at the expense of possible rivals (of which WoT was clearly the biggest). Thou shalt have no other gods before Martin. 2) Ex-WoT fans who felt burned by the direction the series took after Book 6 and felt the need to rant about whenever someone would listen. Between… Read more »
bjlinden
Guest

2) Ex-WoT fans who felt burned by the direction the series took after Book 6 and felt the need to rant about whenever someone would listen.

Man, those folks must have been pretty upset when ASoIaF started going in the same direction as early as book 4.

bjlinden
Guest
Yeah, that’s kind of what I thought too. I’ve never seen any sign of animosity between Martin and Jordan, and hoped that anyone who would make an accusation like that would have something comcrete to back it up with. Hell, I *WAS* one of those fans who started reading ASoIaF primarily because of Jordan’s endorsement! Now, I SUPPOSE it could be argued that Jordan was snubbed in the Hugos because he wasn’t part of the clique, (which hopefully is all Rob Thompson meant) but even if that WERE true, it’s no more fair to blame Martin for that, simply because… Read more »
TallDave
Guest

It will be interesting to see if they change the rules next year. There will no doubt be enormous pressure brought to ensure This Never Happens Again.

I guess they’ll always have the Nebulas.

elwood p. dowd
Guest

IIRC, to make a change for next year would require not only a change to the rules, but change about when a change in rules goes into effect. Typically it is supposed to take two years.

Jeff Gauch
Guest

That might be the motivation behind “no award.” Precipitate a crisis – no Hugos awarded – to drive the attending membership into drastic rule changes to respond to the emergency.

bkw
Guest

Never let a crisis go to waste.

Jeff Gauch
Guest

Even if that means you have to manufacture the crisis first.

Alex
Guest

The Nielsen Haydens are already down as guests of honor for the 2016 con. They, GRRM, a lot of the rest, have long-standing ties to cons (and Worldcons) in the KC area.

I’ll put down $50 that says supporting memberships effectively won’t exist by 2017. They may up the price to basically the same as the con, they may just do away with them entirely – but there is no outcome where the unwashed, uninvited masses will continue to be allowed to decide the Hugos.

James May
Guest

I am beginning a Kickstarter to buy 1,000 memberships for the Muslim Brotherhood.

TallDave
Guest

“And the winner for Best Graphic Story… uh oh…”

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Anyone who’s purchased a membership gets to show up for, and vote in, the business meeting. No rule changes can be made without being approved by business meetings in two consecutive years.

If they cut out supporting memberships, they’ll go broke.

The Phantom
Guest

Gee, wouldn’t self-inflicted bankruptcy be a real shame?

Alex
Guest

“We had to burn the village in order to save the village.”

They have 2 years to figure out some alternate form of financing. Big publisher sponsorships? Increase the price of an attending membership? Bump up dealer costs? GoFundMes?

Lots of ways to get a little extra cash here and there. But, yeah, it ultimately ends in Worldcon shrinking even further and the Hugos being even less influential.

Richard Aronson
Guest
I don’t consider myself a trufan, but I have attended five WorldCons. They ranged from good to fantastic. When I go, I try to read every Hugo nominee, and only vote in categories where I have read/seen at least a majority of the nominees. I probably am an outsider, although I am friends with several trufans and authors. I have spoken on several panels, mostly about gaming. My happiest moments are WorldCon were drinking with Terry Pratchett, which alas will happen no more; I also enjoyed lots of panels, especially when Worldcon was more about ideas and concepts in gaming… Read more »
thomas Monaghan
Guest

I notice you totally ignore the last 8 years of the Making Light/Tor group stuffing the ballets for their friends. Like 5 winning long form editor Hugo’s going to Tor editors from a total of 18 nominations. With Hayden himself winning 3 Hugo’s.

thomas Monaghan
Guest

If thousands of fans are disappointed it would be a surprise for me since there were only 1083 ballots submitted for the Novella category. Sheesh.

Vee Monroe
Guest
> You have made thousands of Hugo awards fans unhappy and disillusioned. Richard, I don’t think you see it the other way. You have given some Hugo Award fans hope for the first time in years. I am a passionate reader and writer of SF pulp and ideas-based fiction – what Vox Day calls ‘blue’ SF. I’m a former scientist (female) and was attracted into doing a PhD by SF adventures written by real scientists like Rendezvous with Rama. I’ve been disillusioned by the Hugos and by short fiction, which seems to be slanting towards fantasy that prioritises emotional masturbation… Read more »
Bill Roper
Guest

That would (under the current WSFS constitution) require raising the voting fee to the same price as an attending membership. Since it takes two cycles to amend the constitution *and* the vote for 2017 takes place this year, 2017 looks extremely likely to continue to have supporting memberships.

Expendable Henchman
Guest

The obvious answer is to fire all the honest vote counters.

Keep the money from the Sad & Rabid Puppies, but shuffle the votes so they get two or three nominees only, then the blessed SJW finalists win.

Alex
Guest

Actual conspiracies are rare because once you expand them beyond one person, they tend to get exposed.

Whatever they do, it will be something systematic, repeatable, and public. GRRM already laid the foundation by repeating the laughable claim that only now are the Hugos too broken. They must be “fixed.”

Mary
Guest

However, on their blog, they’ve admitted it would be a real trick to change the rules to keep the wrongfans out.

Indeed, some commenters grumbled that what was needed was a moderator.

There is no way to fight abusive rules-lawyers by writing stricter policies. The only method that has ever worked against abusive rules-lawyers is moderators empowered to say, “You’re being an asshole, and now you are banned,” and powerful gatekeepers behind the moderators supporting them when the rules-lawyers attempt to shriek for redress.

Lea
Guest

These people love moderators! It is just awful to hear words from people you don’t agree with. Ban them all.

J. Carl Henderson
Guest

I find it utterly hilarious that the opponents of Sad Puppies have—not satisfied with poking the small sleeping bear—have decided to shove their pointy sticks at Gamegate. When I pointed out that doing this had a good chance of provoking thousands of Gamergaters into buying Worldcon Supporting Memberships next year, I was confidently told that Gamergate would not be around in a year, and that we were racists and misogynists, and “fuck off” and was blocked.

zealcub
Guest
I don’t think it’ll be thousands but from ehat I heard about the numbers already a small crowd can skew the whole thing. I am a GamerGater who recently bought a membership. Before this whole kherfuffle I wasn’t really aware of the Hugos nor of the perks of being a member despite reading quite a lot of SFF: I have read stuff from all sides of this issue. Scalzi or Butcher? An author’s nsme really didn’t make a lot of difference because all works can offer interesting perspectives. I will read, nominate and vote for whatever I end up enjoying… Read more »
Lhasadog
Guest
Funny thing about poking the Gamergaters. They spend money. That’s kind of the point. They are the end consumer of the $100 billion Videogames industry. A Worldcon membership is less than 1 game, and most of them really are SciFi fans. SciFi fans who spend. At what point do those operating Worldcon see the sudden surge in unexpected funding and start to rethink the whole equation? That’s kind of the thing with the SJW’s. At the end of the day these are all businesses. Money talks. And the SJW’s are typically infamous for not really having any and not spending… Read more »
maniakmedic
Guest

Gamers spend AND they will show up – rain, snow, sub-zero temperatures be damned – to wait in line for hours to pick up a game that they will then concentrate on for anywhere from 10 to 300+ hours to finish. Gamers as a whole is the posterchild of the wrong group to lob attacks at and expect them to disappear in short order.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

Exactly, Mr. Henderson. Sad Puppies 4 is going to be a tsunami. They’ll be drowned.

The will for self-destruction is amazing, isn’t it?

Ronnie Schreiber
Guest

The SJWs made a huge strategic error declaring war on people who play networked war games for a hobby.

Faceh
Guest
“First and foremost, you guys need to decide, once and for all, what the Hugo Awards really are. There are two choices. It is the most prestigious award which represents the best works in all of fandom. It is a little award, for one little group of people, at one convention. You can’t have both. Pick one, stake your flag on it, and we will proceed from there. ” That is really all it would take, isn’t it? Well, that and some actual accountability for the position. Throughout this whole thing, there’s one side that is clearly unwilling to come… Read more »
Kate Julicher
Guest

If you can make me tear up reading a blog post – you may not ever accept another Hugo nomination but you’re on my list of “buy release day” writers. And that’s a short list.

Cedar Sanderson
Guest

Always a pleasure to read you, Larry, from your fiction, to this. I’m just a little Fan, no shrines, and when I started out, I had no idea my flag of heartfelt affection for Baen would have me standing in the corner, rejected and confused, in most cons. Fortunately, there are others who feel like me, and want to see more diversity – true diversity – return to the Hugo Awards.

Ted N
Guest

Find the BarFlies ConSuite, and you’ll never be alone.

Steven Francis Murphy
Guest
Steven Francis Murphy

Larry, I just have one thing to say.

Thank you.

Brian
Guest

Thank you for that response Larry.

J
Guest
My take is that George is simply sad to see something he loves/loved change and he’s trying to let people know how it changed. I didn’t get the impression he was trying to attack anyone directly. Even when he talked about forming another award. There are plenty of talks about how to change the Hugo voting system. It won’t happen next year because of WorldCon rules. Some I feel are really fair ideas that leave room for everyone to have a place at the Hugo Awards table. Other suggestions are rather self interested. A lot of authors are vowing they… Read more »
Doctor Locketopus
Guest

I’m giving serious thought to adopting “No Award, No Buy” as a personal policy.

If you try to “game the Hugos” by urging people to vote No Award based on politics, I won’t buy your books.

windsong
Guest

You’re not alone.

I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with SP, politics, etc. I do have a problem with hypocrisy and loud online tantrums. I’d rather spend my time in worlds created by honorable authors who truly understand and appreciate real diversity.

JustAGuyOnTheWeb
Guest
Honestly, I don’t even care if you’re a rabid racist sexist homophobe. I know I’m not supposed to say that, so my view doesn’t get appropriated as some SP3 viewpoint (which it isn’t, I speak for myself), but if you write good books, I don’t care what your personal politics are. That’s the point. OSC is certainly one example of this, and given the number of people who have read his books or watched the movie version, it just goes to show someone’s writing is what should be judged, not what they believe. That he won a Hugo almost 20… Read more »
windsong
Guest
“but if you write good books, I don’t care what your personal politics are. That’s the point.” I agree with you. Where I draw the line for myself, as a reader, is when I come across authors attacking–not disagreeing, but outright attacking–others (authors, readers, people at large). There are a number of stories I’ve loved over the years, many written by authors who have completely different ideas, opinions, and beliefs than I do. I’m fine with that, and I enjoy it because I want to understand how different people tick. In a perfect world, an author spewing hate on the… Read more »
JustAGuyOnTheWeb
Guest

I have no idea why I can’t reply to your other comment, but I just want to say that I read what you wrote wrong, and thanks for the clarification.

windsong
Guest

No worries. Thank you, and you’re welcome. 🙂

flyergrad
Guest
I agree with you, windsong. To me SFF has always been the vehicle for exposure to new ideas. I do not say I agree with all the ideas, but at least those ideas got me to think. Also, SFF ideas have brought us many of the things we have today. Ideas from DiVinci (artist, not writer, I know.) got us flying. Ideas from J Verne got us submarines. Ideas from I Asimov got us robotics. What else dreamed of by SFF writers will we see tomorrow? Unfortunately, today’s SFF lecturing gives me only heartburn.
Feather Blade
Guest

Heck, Star Trek, soft SF as is it, got us automatic sliding doors and (arguably) cell phones.

David L. Burkhead
Guest

My very first cell phone was a Motorolla Star Tak. The name is no coincidence. It was an explicit callout to Star Trek. My current phone is not a flip phone, but it has voice recognition. I could set it so that when I said “Kirk to Enterprise” it would make the call. (So long as I knew the Enterprise’s number.)

Khazlek
Guest

The Trek device is a walkie-talkie, its contribution is pretty much just the physical appearance of the device. There were walkie-talkies prior to Trek.

John Van Stry
Guest

Thank you for that Larry, as a long time Science Fiction and Fantasy reader (since the 60’s) I appreciate you saying all of this. And I appreciate SP as well.

GRRM needs to understand, that when you keep beating the peasants, eventually they will rise up and take over. The people who are all screaming now made this bed, and now they have to lie in it. There is no defense that can be made for their actions, it is too late for that.

Again, thank you Mr Correia.

Zap Rowsdower
Guest

The tolerant ones are sure wasting a lot of air telling us why certain people aren’t allowed.

JSchuler
Guest

GRRM is an example of why moderates are useless. They don’t care about the kid getting beaten up on the playground until the kid gets a good swing and topples the bully into them, spilling their juice box. At that point, suddenly fighting is a terrible thing and the kid who fought back should be ashamed of himself or something.

Yes, he says a lot of good things, but he said them all too late, and only when those things could also work in service of the bullies.

Patrick J.
Guest
Bingo. I have no skin in this. I’m not a sci-fi reader. But it really grinds me when people start to fight back and are called nasty things because they rejected being treated like crap. As if its their fault they just didn’t die and go away. For true neutrals I sympathize because usually they don’t see the drama that leads to these things. The “cool set” usually don’t have to do dramatic things. They did it all in advance by whispers and back-channeling. And those oblivious don’t see the change before them or just decide it doesn’t affect them.… Read more »
Will
Guest

Your post is TRIGGERING my memories. How dare you not include a warning.

les ismor
Guest
It’s amazing to me that a lot of the very vocal “fans” railing against the Sad Puppies will now be patting Mr. Martin on the back; they’ve only spent several years loudly complaining about the “problematic” nature of the popular show based on his novels. I don’t care about politics, I care about being entertained. I don’t want a mediocre political lecture dressed up with fiction held up as “the best in the genre”. Just the other day, I saw someone (SJW) online attempting to explain that the “just make your own” argument is steeped in privilege, and is inherently… Read more »
LauraPH
Guest

“I hate to admit it, but I firmly believe these people are willing to destroy the Hugos if they can’t control them.”

They already *have* destroyed the Hugos for everyone else. But I agree with you that they are petty and childish enough to take up their ball and go home rather than play fair in the future.

Synova
Guest
Yes, but how numerous are they really? I mean… how numerous are those people who mostly write “important” things on the internet about how much horrible bad-think is in Game of Thrones? Or who go on and on about any other particular aspect of Wrong Fun involved in a good Colonial Diaspora or First Contact novel or Alternate History? I mean… will they even try to bring in more and more fans who are politically left or liberal on the theory that *of course* all of those people obviously prefer a certain kind of story? Their voices would be every… Read more »
The Phantom
Guest

I’m sure there are whole university courses based on parsing the bad-think in Game of Thrones.

Differently
Guest

Anything that brings more voters in isn’t a bad thing. And especially from Worldcon’s perspective, it shouldn’t be.
Worldcon has gotten lots of extra money from the Sad Puppies campaign, probably over 10,000 dollars this year.
It is in the interests of Worldcon (as a convention), to have more Hugo voters paying them money.

T.L. Knighton
Guest
Yeah, we could totally make up our own award. Hell, some groups have. But none of those awards have ever pretended to be for everyone. I find it hysterical that this “The Hugo’s aren’t for fandom, they’re for WorldCon” meme fires up this year, despite how well Sad Puppies 2 did. None of their arguments last year swayed anyone (at least not in the ways they wanted), so now they had to try something new, so they’re using the “it’s not for you” line. Whatever. This is the same award that nominated a soft core porn film for best dramatic… Read more »
Doctor Locketopus
Guest

After that we can make our own drinking fountains and lunch counters.

Mary
Guest

Last year, they didn’t have to destroy the award in order to save it — if they can do even that.

maniakmedic
Guest

Maybe the “No Award” could be the new award. For people who have been paying attention, the publisher could put that on the cover and they’d know it was a good book because it was rejected by a bunch of simpering message fic simpletons who think ignorance is a badge of honor. Take the “No Award” and turn it into something to be proud of.

Thomas Monaghan
Guest

This was a very good analysis!

elwood p. dowd
Guest

I want one because Robert A. Heinlein won four, because Roger Zelazny and Alfred Bester and Ursula K. Le Guin and Fritz Leiber

Good grief. Does Martin have any idea how not only Heinlein, but also Zelazny, Bester and Leiber get viewed by SJ– *ahem*, a certain class of folks? Does he seriously think ANY of those authors would have a shot at winning a Hugo in the here and now?

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Him bringing up Heinlein, Zelazny, etc. seems rather disingenuous, given that the actual argument is that the SJW capture is a recent thing.

Pugmak
Guest

“Him bringing up Heinlein, Zelazny, etc. seems rather disingenuous, given that the actual argument is that the SJW capture is a recent thing.”

Actually, no.

People have gotten fed up enough to start fighting back. That’s recent. The SJW have been working on doing what they’re now publicly called out on since PCism became popular.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

Hi, Pug!

Something I find amusing: the other day I read a recent fb post by K. Tempest Bradford, saying that people like her have been working to make sf more “inclusive” for the past thirty years. Well, this year a whole bunch of people have included themselves.

Pugmak
Guest

Hi, back atcha, Stephen!

Keep in mind that with SJWs, whatever they claim they stand for, their actual intended effect is 180 degrees off.

So, yeah, by “inclusive” she meant “only us”.

Beolach
Guest

Depends on where the line between “recent” and “not recent” is. Yes, the backlash against SJW capture is more recent than SJW capture. But SJW capture is more recent than Heinlein, Zelazny, etc. winning their Hugos.

The Sad Puppies position, as I understand it, is that Heinlein, Zelazny, etc. deserved their Hugos, but that the SJW cliques recently in control of the Hugos would not have awarded them. But historically, they *did* win them, ergo SJW capture must have happened more recently than when Heinlein, Zelazny, etc. won their Hugos.

James May
Guest

“Kameron Hurley ‏@KameronHurley 6h As long as we present SFF as stuff by/for folks like Asimov, Heinlein, Bester and Ellison, this isn’t going to happen.Will be fewer readers”

“Runy ‏@runycat 6h @KameronHurley I would be fucking thrilled if folks could get over their weird Heinlein boners and move forward.”

“Ro Smith ‏@Rhube 5h @KateElliottSFF @KameronHurley @gderekadams @runycat I’m now happy with chucking out ‘classics’ rife with misogyny, racism etc.”

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

The Mirror Empire by Kameron Hurley, 2014: Amazon Sales Rank: 39,000, 4 stars

Starship Trooers by Robert A. Heinlein, 19-friggin-59: Amazon Sales Rank: 4,622, 4.4 stars

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you, Kameron, Runy, and Ro.

Note that this isn’t just a bunch of “old white guys”. Old white guys bought their copies of Starship Troopers decades ago.

James May
Guest

As far as I can tell, Hurley doesn’t really have anything to say as an artist. Her main talent seems to be promoting people like herself and railing against everyone else. Her Atlantic piece shows she can’t even think. I doubt Heinlein or Bester would’ve been dumb enough to write such an article when they were 8 yrs. old. Does she think quote marks are only for dialogue?

Rob Hobart
Guest

I run a comics/games store on a military base. I sell multiple copies of Starship Troopers every WEEK, to guys who are 18-19 years old.

I don’t even bother trying to stock the SJW message-fic.

Pugmak
Guest

They let comics/games stores on base now?

Dang, back when I was in, both Heavy Metal and Epic magazines were banned from the PX.

Thomas Monaghan
Guest

Peterson had a gamestore. Then the moved over to FT. Carson and farther away from me.

Pugmak
Guest

I was in the Corps. We were under PX Kelly as CMC.

It was the era where it came down from on high that all officers would wear their shiny insignia on both collars and their cover, regardless of garrison, field or deployment.

And, all enlisted had to wear white t-shirts because we were the good guys.

Oh, and no official unarmed combat training because we might hurt a civilian when on libo.

But, the powers that be stood staunch against allowing comics to rot our brains and sap our fighting spirit!

Bastards.

The Phantom
Guest

Old white guys have been busy trying to MAKE Starship Troopers powered armor ever since Heinlein made it up.

Almost 50 years later, starting to get some of the basics working. Still no decent power source, I suspect we have to wait for room temperature superconductors.

Somebody show me an SJW author who invented something that other guys immediately set out to try and make.

keranih
Guest
Star Trek doors. The Great Bird of the Galaxy was hardly a right-winger, and a guy sat up and said, dude, that would be so useful! and worked for years on proximenty sensors to make the doors work. One of the ST:TNG guys (JF? maybe?) was talking with some of the TOS crew, and he was “man, the thing I hated most was having a take screwed up because the doors weren’t working right. Bet you guys hated that, too, huh?” And the TOS actors were like, “dude. We had two crew guys pulling the doors apart on the other… Read more »
SusanM.
Guest
Personally, if the Hugo’s Powers That Be decide they want their award to toddle off into the setting of whatever triple sunset they envision on their own tiny private island, I would have a hard time caring. They had so damaged their brand years ago with me due to the dreck that they promoted that I had been actively avoiding buying books that had had the so-called “honor”. In fact, I had pretty much given up sci-fi and fantasy altogether letting my Asimov and Sci-Fi and Fantasy and Science Fiction Book Club subscriptions lapse and rarely bought anything from any… Read more »
Dorothy Grant
Guest

Oh, but that award already exists: It’s now 2 years old. It’s called the Sad Puppies Nominating Slate.

Seriously, if we were nominated as books that help cure puppy-related sadness, I’d count that as an honor on par with classic hugos… and better than winning a hugo today.

When I’m hunting for a good read beyond the pool of fan recommendations, I’ll buy stories off the list, even without having heard of them before, because they’re good.

Lhasadog
Guest

Which brings up a truly inspired idea for next year. For SP4 put GRRM on the Sad Puppies Slate. He’s obviously got the quality work product that the fans crave. He rights interesting characters that fans fall in love with. ( Then slaughters them in horrifying ways before their eyes. One suspects ol’ George may have a few “issues”) so put him on the Sad Puppies nominating slate next year and watch what happens. Watch how various people including George react. Much like Larry’s other tests buried into the SP concept. It would show the truth of where things lie.

Mary
Guest

We’ll have to see how good it is. Me, I gave up on Game of Thrones when I saw Feast of Crows available at the library and realized I didn’t care.

Likewise, though Pratchett’s not getting one is a disappointment, I suspect I would not support Shepherd’s Crown, because I fear I have seen the decline of his writing powers in painful evidence in earlier works.

Lea
Guest

For SP4 put GRRM on the Sad Puppies Slate.

Dude, no way WoW will be out in time at this point. I guess you could put some random short story on there…

Cara Halvorson
Guest

“Oh, but that award already exists: It’s now 2 years old. It’s called the Sad Puppies Nominating Slate.”

Okay, this one make me do that snort laugh. And you’re 100% correct 😉

SusanM.
Guest

The one time someone can truly mean it when they say, “It’s an honor just to be nominated.”

Kevin P.
Guest

For grins and giggles, I would suggest we call it the “Hell No! Award”.

Jccarlton
Guest

One thing that stands out if you look at Hugo nominees and winners is that ONE publisher and it’s authors dominates far more than you would expect. Maybe more than just political, it’s the opinions of that publisher and more importantly, it’s editorial staff that’s been driving the Hugos for far too long now. Do we really want to turn the Hugos into the “best of Tor?”

Expendable Henchman
Guest

If the Hugos were the best of Tor, SP wouldn’t exist.

Alas, the Hugos are actually ‘the works that make Tor’s SJW’s feel superior, yet still sell enough not to get them openly laughed at’.

Murgy
Guest

You keep rejecting those nominations, Mr. C. You’ll get lot’s of practice at it, in the coming years. (Well, as along as you keep putting out good stuff. You pull a C.Stross (politics over story) or LK Hamilton (pr0n before story) and , out you’ll go. Don’t do that, please.

Until then you’ll remain on my list of “Do it this way” type authors. Never Quit! Never Surrender!

(Note to self: find out what Mrs. C likes, bribe her. He’ll come around.) 😛

Jeff Gauch
Guest

I have decided that until he backs down from this ridiculous no Hugo pledge I shall refer to him as His Terrible Holiness Larry Correia, International Lord of Hate, defender of puppies, Scourge of the SJW’s, Hugo Pope.

JackWylder
Guest

You left off ‘Fiskmaster General’ and ‘the Mountain Who Writes’

Jeff Gauch
Guest

At this rate the Hugo Pope is going to need a herald to keep all of his titles straight.

DaveP.
Guest

Shouldn’t that be “Hugo Bhoddisvha”? Denying his ascension until all may ascend?

Expendable Henchman
Guest

You guys are playing into WorldCon’s hands.

They can fire the honest counters and replace them with people following a ‘higher truth’ now that Larry has vetted them.

Then, they can take all the S/R Puppies slate votes, award them to Larry overwhelmingly, he declines as promised, and the 4 SJW’s are joined by #6 SJW, for a sweep of the category.

Jared Anjewierden
Guest

Well. The reaction to this should be interesting.

(Sadly, more likely the silence will be deafening)

Greg B
Guest

Not just a gun store.
A Machine Gun store.
It really doesn’t get any better.

Robert A.
Guest

“You guys had competing cliques, but to us it was like an Eskimo having a thousand different words for snow, and you can tell us about your many diverse and wonderful types of snow, but all we saw was snow.”

This is a wonderful way to describe this. I’m going to use this a lot to describe liberal diversity(tm), versus actual diversity.
I’ll give you credit, though. Maybe.

Stephen J.
Guest

And all too much of that snow was yellow.

SusanM.
Guest

Do you have a problem with Snow of Color?

Not very diverse of you.

🙂

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

OH, BRILLIANT, SUSAN!

Frank Ney
Guest

I personally would have thought that “but all we saw was a snow job” would have sent a more direct message, but to each his own.

Mary
Guest
Alan S.
Guest

A very interesting set of lists.

Really too bad we adopted a “Standardized Dictionary” and (mostly) dropped the Germanic approach of -making- new compound words.

Because we’d be crushing the “Words for snow” count at that point.

ravenshrike
Guest

Yeah, bad list. Many of the ‘English words for snow’ refer to ice formations themselves. Or don’t apply merely to snow itself at all in the case of accretion, cornice, ablation et al. The Inuit still have many more words for snow.

windsong
Guest
Thank you, Larry, for saying what needed to be said. I’m not really part of the adult SFF fandom. I *love* SFF, but in the kidlit sector, so the Hugos have never really been on my radar beyond some abstract award on certain books. Kind of like the Newbery. The reason I’m getting involved now is because I’m tired of watching people lie, spew hate-filled rhetoric, do their best to bury dissenting voices (while they claim to abhor censorship), and assassinate people’s characters while patting each other self-righteously on the back. Discrimination is bad, they say. Unless, of course, it… Read more »
Differently
Guest

Hey, fellow YA fan! Glad to see you here.
Yeah, the Hugos ignored YA except in 2009. It stinks. But the more YA fans who get involved in the Hugos, the more that will change.

windsong
Guest

Hail, and well met, fellow traveler. 🙂 (Although, I must confess, I’m more of an upper MGer or young YAer.)

I agree. One of the things I’ve appreciated about the SP campaigns is learning that we *can* vote. (Though I’m still not sure if Middle Grade qualifies or not. >.<) I'm hoping that as more and more people learn they can vote that they will. 🙂

Differently
Guest

As long as it is SFF, it qualifies. In one of the two years YA was nominated, the Graveyard Book won. It also won a Newberry, which is a children’s award. There is nothing forbidding Middle Grade, as long as it’s SFF.
Go for it.

Cara Halvorson
Guest

I love YA and adult both. I wonder why the Hugo has no YA category? Perhaps it just never occurred to them. Some of the best stuff I’ve seen in years is coming from the YA section.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

STARSHIP TROOPERS was written to be a YA novel. No one distinguished between “adult” and “young adult”, just “great” and “not great.”

Differently
Guest

It is part of the regular fiction categories. It is just far from proportionally nominated, considering it sells nearly 4 times as much in print as adult SFF.
That being said, Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, and the Graveyard Book, both won Hugos despite being YA (or children’s).

T.L. Knighton
Guest

Oh, and Mr. Martin needs to be careful, or else Kevin Standlee will arrive to tell us how there has been no cliquishness or any kind of collusion involved in the Hugo process, despite what George R.R. Martin says.

John R. Ellis
Guest

“It would have been noticed!!!!”

“We noticed it.”

“But we would have seen a pattern!!!!!”

“We saw a pattern.”

“This has never happened before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

“Um, it’s been happening for years.”

“….oh yeah, well….you just want to make people cry and stuff! This blog said so!”

John Van Stry
Guest

yes, this exactly. I remember Kevin first made a comment about seeing possible indications of it (Vox has the quote copied somewhere) but he quickly backed off of that one!

I just keep thinking of Casablanca “Rick! I am shocked to discover that gambling has been going on in this establishment”.

Everyone knows that the awards have been gamed for years, the winner’s list made that very clear. Now they’re going to have the change the rules made by all those ‘old dead white men’ if they want to keep control of something which they hijacked in the first place.

Alex
Guest

At the risk of giving the CHORFs any ideas: They’ll remove the supporting memberships. Or make voting done only at Worldcon in person. May happen at this year’s, may happen at next year’s, but it will happen. Makes too much sense.

This will, of course, financially hit the Worldcons going forward to the tune of, what, $20k or so? Maybe more? And it will make the Hugo even more irrelevant going forward, the sole property of a dwindling number of greying old timers. But, dammit, sometimes you have to burn the village to save the village, right?

Jeff Gauch
Guest

So then we set up an award that is nothing but supporting memberships. $25, the cost of a hardcover, buys you a vote. Let WorldCon keep the Hugo, we’ll buy the rights at the fire sale when the last Trufan dies.

Then we can run retro Hugo awards. Start at 1990 and we nominate five pieces published that year that go on the final ballot alongside the five original nominees.

Alex
Guest

Slap it onto LibertyCon.

Frank Ney
Guest

That’s pretty much what the Prometheus is now.

DDA
Guest

FWIW, WorldCon (sometimes) does run Retro Hugos. SasQuan won’t be but others have.

Nohbody
Guest

I asked a similar question on Mad Mike’s FB page, and he said last year’s supporting memberships brought in 60 kilobucks.

Dunno if that’s gross or net income, didn’t think to ask. Doesn’t sound like that much, though, even for a con that struggles to hit 10K attendees (never mind Hugo voters).

Expendable Henchman
Guest

Net and Gross both. WorldCon knows how to print cheaply. The biggest hit is bulk postage. A generous estimate is $3/supporting membership. Hell, call it $5 to allow for skimming.

After that, what the heck does a supporting member cost? Nothing.

And they’re pushing email printing, which is totally free.

Jon
Guest

Considering K Tempest Bradford said $50 is too much for some people I can’t imagine she’d allow such a rule change. I mean, if $50 is too much, then the expense of attending WorldCon would only serve to disenfranchise more voters, right?

Rick67
Guest
And this is another example where the CHORFs (which is more polite than SJWs) are contradicting themselves (more precisely each other). Because on the one hand Bradford says $50 is too much for some people (and she is not necessarily wrong) and on the other some anti-Sad Puppies writers (not Bradford to my knowledge) have specifically complained how it is too easy for the unwashed masses to fork over $40 for a supporting membership and have a say in the Hugos. So it’s too much and excludes… people. Or it’s too little and lets too many… people in. We should… Read more »
Alex
Guest

Well, there will have to be scholarships, won’t there?

Free (voting) memberships given out to only a deserving few who can’t afford it. And, of course, selected by only those wisest and most able to choose who is deserving.

Nah. They’ll just kill off supporting.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

Can’t be done without bankrupting them. Supporting memberships are basically free money.

They’ve got their sensitive non-gender-specific bits caught in a cleft stick, with no way out.

Mary
Guest

Also many of them realize what cutting them off looks like.

Cara Halvorson
Guest

I think in all this I remember seeing that over twice as many nominations have come in the last two years. That would make about 1,000, give or take, new memberships. If all those are just supporting memberships that’d net them $40K a year. That ain’t chump change. You’d think they would be thrilled. Even old GRRM says they struggle financially. We should be welcomed with open arms but noooo.

Differently
Guest

The organizers (for Loncon, at least), were very gracious last year, according to this blog (unless I am remembering incorrectly). They do like getting $60000 dollars that doesn’t come with expenses.
In other words, the people who actually have to pay for the con are thrilled about supporting membership money. Other fans who are involved with the con are less thrilled about the Puppies giving huge amounts of free money to Worldcon.

pavetack
Guest

They’ll remove the supporting memberships.

Which makes Michael Z. Williamson either prescient or an Evil genius – he called for making Supporting Memberships $5 to increase diversity by attracting more Third World voters. SJWs hoist upon their own petard!

Johne Cook
Guest
Larry, I appreciate your tireless work trying to explain your mind and your history with these awards. I’m beginning to really understand your perspective and the goals of SP3. Your character is coming through and making an impact with me. If I may as a sideline observer – please try to continue to keep this as a fight on the issues. A friend of mine said “This is actually a really good lesson in “why a speaker needs to use persuasive language instead of divisive language”. Had the SPs made their point (the awards are the province of cliques and… Read more »
Geodkyt
Guest

You know, it was only after the libellous attacks got turned on, a few years ago, that the snark really came out.

When people falsely call me and mine liars, racist, misogynist, fascist, homophobic, and determined to force All That Is Good And Light out of the world, I react.

The bully who starts the fight with a sucker punch doesn’t get to claim wounded innocence nor set the rules for the conflict when he realizes his selected victim chooses not to accept the role of victim.

No, I’ve been *personally* putting up with this sort of crap for over twenty years.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest
Yeah. Go read about Emmett Till, a 14-year-old murdered for making a pass at a white woman in Mississippi in August of 1955. That’s evil and disgusting, but for me, it isn’t enraging. It’s what I expect from racist scum. I’d gladly climb into a time machine, go back to 1955, and murder the pair of lowlifes who killed Emmett Till, but I’d be fairly dispassionate about it. No, what I get enraged at in that history are the various defenses of Till’s murderers, the ones who said he had it coming, the ones who claimed it didn’t happen (till… Read more »
Ratseal
Guest

“I’d like you better if if you would just accept your second class status with grace and a positive tone.”

Check.

Suburbanbanshee
Guest

Singing, dancing, loving the plantation owner….

Coop
Guest

“His words will be in italics, mine will be in bold.”

Why do I get the same twinge running down my spine when reading those words as I do during the scene in Serenity where Mal Reynolds says “I aim to misbehave” ?

The Writer in Black
Guest

“You know what your sin is?”
“I’m a fan of all seven, but right now I’d have to go with wrath.”
😉
They have sown the wind….

Pugmak
Guest

@Coop:

10X ring. Center Hit.

Synova
Guest

Yeah. 🙂

It wasn’t a fisking, though. It was a thoughtful, measured, and respectful response.

Yli
Guest
I think one of the most interesting things that could come out of this is actually running the numbers. In GRRM’s thread he has this to day: http://grrm.livejournal.com/417812.html?thread=20684052#t20684052 “That business about one clique (those dreaded SJWs, I am sure) dominating the nominations for the last ten years strikes me as pure Puppy poop. Where’s the evidence of that?” In your above titanic post you talk about numbers (specifically about LOCUS) and that folks investigating the various numbers–whether they were looking for confirming OR disconfirming evidence–found enough that is statistically significant. Has anyone compiled the various investigations into running the numbers?… Read more »
Differently
Guest

Someone needs to look at Chaos Horizon…
One could argue the ‘cliques’ that run things like Locus and the Nebula are distinguishable, but they’re probably less varied in taste than SP compared to RP.

Jared Anjewierden
Guest

Oh, and I know Larry has his reasons, great and personal, for saying he’ll never accept a Hugo nom.

My response still can be summed up with the following.

(For a visual bonus, imagine the scene in Dragon Age Inquisition when they find out a giant demon is nearby, when they are in the Fade.)

Well… Shit.

trackback

[…] by ChickenOverlord [link] [comment] …read […]

Dyrewulf
Guest
You know why I’m happy (yes, happy) about SP3? I’m finding authors I ENJOY, and filling my wish-list up on Amazon at a rate even I can’t keep up with – I read 3-5 books PER WEEK, usually 1-2 new ones, and re-reads make up the rest – finding new fiction that I enjoy has been somewhat problematic, but now I have Cedar Sanderson to look at, and Brad Torgersen, etc. etc. – And I’m not going down the SP3 slate, rather, I’m looking at it from a ‘had a reasonable reaction to SP3’ vs. ‘Wow. What an ass’ (Looking… Read more »
Mars
Guest

I have a very simple way of dealing with writers whose works I enjoy but who are too odious to support.

http://www.utorrent.com/

Khazlek
Guest

Isn’t that sort of like saying “I only steal from stores owned by assholes”?

Differently
Guest

Don’t they have libraries for that? You don’t even have to check out the book. Hide away in the corner of the library while you’re reading it and people have less of a chance of discovering the author with one fewer of their books on the shelf while you read it.
Best of all, you aren’t breaking any laws.

Mike Hatley
Guest

Well, as a fellow Anti-woman misogynist, internet arguer, and general shitlord, all I can really say is: you have my sword. I can honestly say that I disagree fully, or at least in part, with your politics (listening to Wright on a certain podcast yesterday made me want to vomit) but on this we agree. You do not stand alone.

William Underhill
Guest

Thank you for a most informative response to Mr. Martin’s… screed. This year will be my very first WorldCon. I wasn’t aware that I could nominate or vote until I read this, and I suspect it’s now too late. Ah, well. There’s always next year.

Murgy
Guest

It’s not too late to vote.

Sasquan.org. $40. Supporting membership.

Get’s you a vote this year, and a nomination for next year, plus whatever ends up in the E-packet.

$3.33/month for some of the finest works presented in the last 5 years. (IMHO)

William Underhill
Guest

Oh, I have my membership – thank God for 50% off for military – and my wife has hers. We’ll be there. But I’m still hazy on how voting and nominating works and I dislike acting from ignorance. Unfortunately, since the Queen pays my wages, I don’t have enough time in the day to get caught up on this stuff.

Bill Bacon
Guest

You aren’t the only one William. I put down my $40 this year for the first time, after reading SF for the last 45-ish years (think my first was Space Cadet back in oh, ’68?). Looking very much forward to the e-packet.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

Mr. Underhill, how it works is that you and your wife will get Hugo packets of nominated works, and PINs, and you read the works, then vote online.

Wolfcat
Guest

You can still vote William. The information should be coming soon. 🙂

The Hugo voting ballot will be available to members of Sasquan online and by mail later in April.

This will be my 4th or 5th official Worldcon, I’m usually busy costuming, on panels or volunteering somewhere – I don’t attend the award ceremony, but do read a LOT of books (own somewhere around 6K, over half of which are SF&F)

Kristophr
Guest

Paid for mine. A lot of reading material for $40. A bargain.

William Underhill
Guest

I’ve already had a couple of emails from people plugging particular works, or suggesting I avoid others. I dislike this in the extreme, and it really puts me off the whole process.

Mary
Guest

Yeah. I hope you can brace yourself for it.

Karen Miller
Guest

Thank you, Larry. This was perfect.

Meanwhile, the lies they get peddled, and peddled, and peddled …

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/04/the-culture-wars-come-to-sci-fi/390012/

Frank Ney
Guest

Boy, the list of defendants in the upcoming lawsuit grows daily.

Karen Miller
Guest
I have to say, I’m (probably naively) shellshocked. I’ve been pro writing for @ 10 years, I’ve had my share of shit dished at me because I don’t bow down to the SJW cause of the day (even though I do agree with some elements of their arguments and say so) but this? This has staggered me. That EW piece, and all the flow on from it, leaves me stunned. The rank dishonesty floors me. And it’s the EW piece that has in fact stirred me to becoming far more visible, into making myself a real target, more than I… Read more »
Lhasadog
Guest
You think this is bad? Wait until they make a Law and Order SFU episode about you? I truly feel for the SFF fans and writers in this. At least the Gamers had spent the past 3-4 decades being the whipping boy of everyone and the media menace of the week going back to the 80’s. They long ago exhausted what they could call us and it stopped having any meaning. We had travelled through the storm. Their words no longer had any effect on us or about us. And that’s when we rose up to challenge them. I fear… Read more »
Alex
Guest

Law and Order STFU. Hmm,

Patrick Chester
Guest

…and, judging from the comments, will dismiss and/or ignore people pointing out the Sad Puppies side of the story.

Typical.

Alan S.
Guest

Dear Larry.

Put -THAT- up on Amazon for $.99.

It’s a contender for best related work NEXT year.

Matt
Guest

I have been to many WorldCons over the years, but I have quit. Originally because I wasn’t having enough fun, but now because as an unapologetic straight white male, I don’t feel welcome. So let the SJWs have at it.

William Underhill
Guest

You know, you’re not encouraging me 🙂 This year is going to be my first Worldcon, but I’m beginning to wonder if there’s any point in going.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

I always enjoyed Worldcon when I attended. If you go, you’ll find plenty of nice people there, and plenty of fun stuff to do. Look for the BAEN BOOKS suite for a starter!

Tim Russell
Guest

Nicely done Larry.

Tzeentch
Guest
Until last years Puppies thing i had NO IDEA, none at all, that the Hugo awards were part of some sort of Con. I thought it was just a general sci-fi/fantasy award from well… the ‘book’ community as a whole. I had always assumed that there was a small group of voters but also that the small group of voters were normal book reviewers, people like reps from news papers and sci-fi/fantasy magazines. When i think Hugo Award i think Golden Globe or Oscar and all those other awards. Finding out that it’s nothing like that is/was a shock. Sad… Read more »
Expendable Henchman
Guest

I was relieved to discover it was just a small group.

I had been thinking all of SF fandom had gone stupid.

Lhasadog
Guest
And once you start to realize just how small the numbers of these petty ideological tyrants are, it suddenly starts to make sense. The world hasn’t gone stupid. It’s just these handful of ideologues seeking to slowly conscript the means of communication in a few industries. SciFi fans haven’t gone SJW nuts. Gamers haven’t suddenly signed onto this narrow spiteful ideology. Comic book fans sure as hell don’t like what is actually being published these days instead of the quality stories that they remember. It’s this small cult of a few thousand have declared themselves gatekeepers in order to control… Read more »
Achillea
Guest

Shorter GRRM:

“It’s WorldCon’s pizza, and they can refuse to sell it to anyone whose lifestyle they disapprove of.”

James May
Guest

Well, then they won’t mind 10,000 more.

Plus, what time’s the parade?

Hahahahah.

Cara Halvorson
Guest

Ooooh!! Can we have a SP parade? That could be some very inventive CosPlay if nothing else 😉

As a side note, has anyone noticed the difference in GRRM and Larry in this little back and forth? Yeah, Larry doesn’t “massage” his comments. And GRRM had the nerve to call Larry dishonest. He’s always straight up with us.

Reziac
Guest

Brought to you by the same people who insist that you serve pizza to everyone!

Oh, the irony, it burns…

James May
Guest
This is all so much more complicated than it needs to be or is. You can see that in Martin writing in his comment section “I don’t doubt that the Sad Puppies feel slighted. (Well, some of them. Others just enjoy the idea of fucking with the ‘SJWs’). “Problem is, a lot of other groups feel slighted too. Minorities, women, and so on. “Conservatives love to dismiss the complaints of such groups and accuse them of playing the victim card… yet here we have the Puppies, loudly declaring, ‘no, no, we’re the REAL victims.'” It’s further symbolized here where LC… Read more »
Lhasadog
Guest
Welcome to the Right Wing. Please leave your Birkenstocks in the pile in the corner. There’s a buffet table with fresh babies to eat over their. No seriously, I am an actual Conservative. There are a number of us out here. We like SF and games as much as anybody else. But while you are watching the Sad Puppies folks go through this barrage of being accused of racism, sexism, misogyny, etc think on this. Chances are everything you know about conservatives, comes from those same people currently lying about SP. Every single thing. Chances are every single idea you… Read more »
greyratt
Guest
yes this…. I work in a print shop (union), we d a lot of vote for me posters. so conversations can turn to politics. and when the tea party is brought up, it is always THEY ARE RACISTS I have told many people that they are not, look them up. some people will not be convinced, group think. others however (usually younger) I say to them: you have a smart phone, it connects to the internet, LOOK THEM UP, find out what they stand for, not what other people, including me, say about them. you maybe surprised how many people… Read more »
Vancomycin
Guest

^^^^THIS * 10^23

bjlinden
Guest
I’ve always hated the “conservatives/white men/gamergaters/whoever-else-is-questioning-the-social-justice-hivemind-this-week are saying ‘no, no, no, we’re the REAL victims'” argument. It’s the “REAL” that frames it in an entirely dishonest manner. It implies that only one group can be victims, in every area, anywhere in society. No one is saying that other people aren’t victims. They’re not even saying that other people don’t have it worse than them in many situations. They’re saying that they, personally, ARE being discriminated against. for all the social justice community’s talk about “[whatever]splaining” and denying other peoples’ personal experiences, they sure are quick about doing that to others.
Synova
Guest

Good point.

I’ve been pointing out lately how often quotes and paraphrases by Sad Puppies are taken and an “only” is added… as if the meaning stays the same when you add an “only” to it.

It’s a way of lying.

Captain Comic
Guest
Announcement: Special Panel In consideration of the recent events involving the Science Fiction Achievement Awards, commonly referred to as the Hugos, it has been decided to hold a meeting at Sasquan, the 73rd World Science Fiction Convention. It is tentatively scheduled to begin at 10 AM on Friday, August 21, the third day of the convention, with location to be determined. Panel: Hugos Unacceptable Activities Committee (HUAC) The formal seated panel will consist of real fans, those who love SF, who attend and work on WorldCon and other conventions. The fan community, the ones the Hugos truly belong to. Those… Read more »
Murgy
Guest

Congratulations are in order for Nightwatch, who will be providing security and taking note of who attends, and who doesn’t.

Volunteers for Nightwatch may visit MakingSpite, for badges and truncheons.

Jeff Gauch
Guest

Badges? We don need no steenkin badges.

SusanM.
Guest

By their truncheons shall ye know them.

Beolach
Guest

Poe’s law: I read most of the way through this comment before I was sure it was parody & not a copy-paste of an actual SFWA/WorldCon announcement. And it was only the “S. J. Woreeahr” signature at the end that really made me heave a sigh of relief.

Jen G.
Guest

This blog is hard to navigate if you are looking for historical archives and I was wondering if there are any posts from around 2011/2012 that speak to the roots of Sad Puppies ‘in situ’ as it were. The only one I could find was a general ‘had a great time’ kind of thing.

I saw for myself the changing SJW narrative between SP2 and SP3 and how the goalposts have moved. I was curious if I could find similar pre-SP1 where the “hugo’s are for everyone’ narrative might have been more on display

Douglas B. Killings
Guest

Strangely enough, I think this is the sort of thing that GRRM would read and may even respond to. If that happens, please let us know, Mr. Correia.

Andrew
Guest

You could take the Hugo Awards themselves as gospel,”The Hugo Awards, presented annually since 1955, are science fiction’s most prestigious award.”

http://www.thehugoawards.org/about/

They sure think they’re SF’s most prestigious award, and not just an award given by part to part.

Ashterah
Guest

They definitely have to change that if they don’t want what has gone on here. If it is the most prestigious award, then it needs to be given out by the most prestigious Con. But how to determine that. If by numbers, Dragoncon I believe. Wouldn’t that put quite the little twist in their panties? lolz

Zsuzsa
Guest

If you’re curious, I found a few posts about the start of Sad Puppies 1. It calls my message spam if I post the links, but if you search for the phrase “how to get correia nominated for a hugo” in the search bar, it should give you the four posts that initially started this thing.

Stephen St. Onge
Guest

Jen G., and anyone else interested:
I have a list of posts Larry made on the Hugos over the years, but WordPress won’t let me post it. They think it’s spam. But if you write me at saintonge AT hotmail.com, and put Puppy Posts in the subject, I’ll send you the list in reply. They go back to 2011.

John
Guest

Awesome post, Larry.

I don’t care if he’s late, Martin has brought the right tone to the opposition. And I hope his clout moves the conversation to a more productive ground.

Jay Cagey
Guest

Hmm – you’re being persecuted for your ideals and pressured to abandon your heresy. Maybe you should call yourselves the Hugonots (or Hugoenots?)…

Josh
Guest
This was actually a sad view into Martin’s mindset. I am afraid that he is of the elitist ilk. His “space opera, old fashioned science fiction” comments were enlightening. I actually think his mindset is what is going to sink his most popular series. If you even just casually pass by his blog on occasion you will notice he is spending a large deal of his time on other less popular of his works. I think he revealed the reason for this in his post. ASOIAF actually got wildly popular. Which means undoubtedly that it appeals to Wrongfans. I think… Read more »
Cara Halvorson
Guest

The hubs and I said something similar when A Dance With Dragons came out. We both got the feeling that he’s just flat out bored with the series and is just phoning it in. Not a good book at all, imho. The other? Fabulous. I think he’s a great wordsmith. A delusional one, if these posts are any indication, but a fine author nonetheless.

trackback

[…] Larry Correia offers a response to comments by George R. R. Martin […]

Jg Bradley
Guest

Great letter!

So how’s that editing coming?

Alex
Guest
I can’t be the only one envisioning Martin essentially standing on his front porch, shaking his fist in the air, and telling those darn kids to get off his lawn. Look, Martin was big into the SMOF scene before many of us were born. He runs with the CHORFs. He has for decades. Heck, Patrick Nielsen Hayden is the editor of Wild Cards. If life has shown me nothing else, it’s that very few people actually have ideologies. What they have are interests and personal ties. It’s a rare person who can buck long-standing ties and their own interests to… Read more »
Adam Lawson
Guest

I’ve never forgiven GRRM for being a whiny git and threatening not to finish his books over Kerry losing in 2004. I am NOT surprised by anything he’s saying now.

Holly Stockley
Guest

I was sort of looking forward to his not finishing them. 🙂 But then again, I came to view them as reader torture after the first two – when you start to learn that any character that you’re emotionally committed to will suffer ever more horrific fates with no sign that there will at any point, any where, be an emotional pay-off.

keranih
Guest

I actually took more offense at having villains I utterly despised getting humanized into my sympathy.

Tikitiki
Guest

There is a villain and saint in a person. That’s what Martin is saying in this books. It’s all a matter of perspective.

Careful there Sad Puppies in your effort to save the world, not to destroy it and become Rabid Dogs. Don’t forget that blacklash is violence too.

Peace.

Tikitiki
Guest

*his *backlash. Sorry for the typos 😛

keranih
Guest

Tikitiki –

My jest evidently did not come through well – it is a frequently failing on the internets.

I actually respect the heck out of GRRM’s ability to do that – to bring a hero down to earth and force the reader to acknowledge the humanity of the enemy.

What is *really* impressive about how GRRM goes about it is that he forces the reader to re-write their assessment of the character but does NOT re-write what the character has done – their virtues and sins remain, just add complexity.

Thomas Monaghan
Guest

Which is why I quit reading the series. When you kill every character I like I kill the book/series. 🙂

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

Ah, no wonder he took forever.

Maybe he needs to stop paying attention to politics. Clearly it’s interfering with his work.

Keith Glass
Guest

At this point, I’d be happy if, on the Final Page of the Final Book of “A Song of Fire and Ice”, that Ned Stark wakes up in a modern bed, aside of Catelyn, and says. . . “I was dreaming I was a Feudal Lord in a magical land. . .”

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

Heartbroken, Martin never completed A Song of Ice and Fire before he passed away. His last fans pooled their money to buy the rights. They hired a lesser writer, who was only able to bill them for 150k words before finishing.

Guro fans were disappointed, but still had the Doujinshi market.

Steve Shaffer
Guest
Well spoken Larry, pity you are collecting on word count 😉 . I do notice that you and others *still* believe the Hugo to be prestigous. Why else are you playing Worldcon’s game and trying to resuscitate it, when a perfectly viable alternative considering it’s condition is a mercy shot? Don’t misunderstand, I’ve been a SF fan for about 50 years and grew up when it was a different Hugo. But we won our independence from minority rule long ago (not so sure we’ve kept it, mind) and I for one don’t care to have it again in any venue.… Read more »
Steve Shaffer
Guest

errata: aren’t collecting