Monster Hunter Nation

Fisking the NYT: It isn’t just me. My whole religion can’t be *real* writers!

Several people sent me this article on Facebook yesterday. I supposed I kept getting tagged because everybody knows I’m Mormon and my writing has such a “sunny outlook”.  Then I saw a few other Mormon authors making fun of this on Twitter.

At first I just laughed at the article because it is the usual pretentious New York Times piece written by somebody remarkably clueless about the subject (and as a gun rights activist I’m fairly used to that), but the more I thought about this article, the more it pissed me off. It just hit too many of my pet peeve buttons: “you’re not a *real* writer”, academic self-righteous posturing, and cultural/religious ignorance based on stereotypes masquerading as unbiased reporting.

The original article is here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/us/mormons-offer-cautionary-lesson-on-sunny-outlook-vs-literary-greatness.html?_r=1&

As usual the original article is in italics and my additional comments are in bold.

Note. I don’t normally post about my religious beliefs on the internet. I am in no way a spokesman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because I really struggle with all those important love and forgiveness parts of the gospel, so anything religious I say after this is strictly from my point of view, hence the casual swearing and complete lack of patience for idiots.

MORMONS OFFER CAUTIONARY LESSON ON SUNNY OUTLOOK VS. LITERARY GREATNESS

BY MARK OPPENHEIMER

The title offers a great look into Mark’s predetermined world view. Normally “cautionary lessons” are learned when somebody fails so badly that their only purpose in life is to serve as an example to others. So our “sunny outlook” has caused us to fail at achieving “literary greatness”. Like most NYT*** articles, we’re going to learn a lot more about the author than their subject.

In 1888, speaking about the possibility of Mormon literature, the church leader Orson F. Whitney made an audacious promise to his fellow Mormons: “We will yet have Miltons and Shakespeares of our own.” Yet 125 years later, there is no Mormon Milton. There is no Mormon Milosz, no Mormon Munro.

That’s fantastic. 125 years later and we don’t have 3 copies of three dead guys, two of whom are so famous and widely read still that I had to look them up on Wikipedia. But what makes someone a literary great? That’s the big question. Well, Milosz won a Nobel Prize in 1980. And as everybody knows, if it doesn’t win the Nobel Prize it is crap.

Mormons are, on average, better educated than most Americans,

Yep. And we tend to be disproportionately successful in a bunch of different careers as well, but I’ll get back to that. 

and they have written popular fiction.

Understatement of the year, but I’ll get to that too.

But Mormon authors tend to cluster in genre fiction, like fantasy, science fiction, and children’s and young adult literature.

You mean we tend to cluster in the areas of fiction that are the most popular and widely read, rather writing *real literature* where we will only be read by a handful of college English classes and have to supplement our income by being a guest lecturer or barista at Starbucks. Go figure.

Orson Scott Card, who wrote “Ender’s Game,” the sci-fi novel on which the country’s current top-grossing movie is based, is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So is Stephenie Meyer, author of the “Twilight” series.

Sure, Card is one of the best selling authors of all time, who wrote one of the most pivotal works in sci-fi ever, and who has entertained millions and millions of people over the last three decades, but where’s his Nobel Prize? Huh?  Okay, he was probably collecting about fifty grand in royalties a month before the movie, but who cares about success, money, and popularity if some douchenozzle with a PhD doesn’t like you?

Yep. Stephanie Meyer is Mormon too, and though I personally hate her writing style, she’s entertained millions of people. You can’t deny that she is very successful. She sleeps on a giant pile of money inside her house made of gold bars.

In the United States, Jews, blacks and South Asians, while they have produced no Milton or Shakespeare — who has, lately? — have all had literary renaissances.

Well, if it isn’t the soft racism of the left rearing its ugly head. Because you know, Jews, blacks, and South Asians are all the same. They are a perfectly homogenous group with no individuality, just like Mormons!  

And the fact that he keeps bringing up Shakespeare (the original popular *genre* author) to mock authors who write popular stuff in order to get paid, is very ironic. If Shakespeare was alive today, is anyone stupid enough to think that the guy who specialized in writing entertaining plays for the masses would be writing stuffy, pretentious dreck for what works out to be $3 an hour in the hopes of winning a prestigious literary award? Hell no! We’d all be watching William Shakespeare presents Star Wars vs. The Avengers III: The Jedi Hulkening this summer, and it would be awesome, and the NYT would hate it.

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“Ye olde mission statement readest thus, deadlines loom, find they gonads within thy trousers, place thy ass upon the seat, set quil to parchement, and get paid, bitches.”

And Milton? He’s mostly famous for an epic poem involving a civil war with angels and devils and monsters, interdimensional portals, with the devil as the big bad, and on the side he was a snarky political blogger. Oh, and like all writers you’ve actually heard of, he liked getting paid. Maybe in 300 years I’ll be considered a *real* author too.  

Mormons are more likely to produce work that gets shelved in niche sections of the bookstore.

Niche… In most of the country that means the big part of the store where people actually purchase things. Romance and thrillers are *genre*. They’re not *real* writers either. Guess what sells the most? It sure as hell isn’t lit fic unless it ends up on
Oprah’s Book Club or something like that.

Let’s put it this way. I live in a new 4,500 square foot house on a mountainside across from a ski resort paid for by my *genre* writing. My wife doesn’t have to work to support me like most *real* writers. I don’t have to beg for patrons. I don’t have to kiss ass at my local university for a guest lecturer position to make enough that my car won’t get repossessed. 

If you want to actually make a living as a writer, you will focus on writing things that people will actually give you money for. If you want to focus on highbrow writing have fun, and yes, I would like fries with that. 

Think of it this way, thinking that *real* writing is the correct way to be a writer, is exactly the same as people thinking it is better to go to college for 6 years and getting $200k in debt so you can have a masters in gender studies and then be unemployed and living in your parent’s basement, but still looking down your nose at the debt free guy who makes $30 an hour welding or fixing diesel engines.

And as it turns out, Mormon authors themselves wonder if their culture militates against more highbrow writing.

Not really.

They have a range of possible explanations.

And now we will hear from somebody a lot nicer than I am.

“It is a fair thing to point out,” said Shannon Hale, a Mormon who writes young adult fiction, “that there have been very prominent Jewish writers that have received a lot of accolades, and worldwide the number of Mormons are comparable to the number of Jews, so why hasn’t that happened?”

I’ve met Shannon. She’s cool. And she does ask a good question why hasn’t that happened? Why haven’t Mormons gotten a lot of accolades?

Serious answer? There are more liberal Jews than there are liberal Mormons, and awards go to whoever checks the correct boxes.  If you are an active Mormon you are going to have some fundamental beliefs that go against the establish group think of the literati elites. Now someday they’ll find a disgruntled ex-Mormon that says all the things that makes them happy, who can also coherently string together words into sentences, and he will be showered with awards.

But more importantly, most real writers understand that accolades are fundamentally crap. Accolades don’t pay the bills. Prestigious literary awards mean absolutely nothing except that your book appealed to a one small awards jury, and since most awards juries are circle jerks of like-minded individuals patting themselves on the back about how brilliant they are, who cares?

I get my accolades every six months when I cash my gigantic royalty checks.

Yet, I’m still going to do another Sad Puppies Campaign to get a Hugo because I’m just filled with spite. 🙂

Ms. Hale’s theory is that literary fiction tends to exalt the tragic, or the gloomy,

Or in other words, lit-fic tends to be dreary navel gazing about dying polar bears where nothing interesting actually happens for hundreds of pages, and boring, unlikable people sit around talking about their problems.  

while Mormon culture prefers the sunny and optimistic.

Meaning that Mormons aren’t a bunch of whining pansies.

“When I was an English major, then getting a master’s, most of the literary fiction I read was tragedy,” said Ms. Hale, whose “Princess Academy” was a Newbery Honor book. The books she was assigned treated “decline and the ultimate destruction of the human spirit” as necessary ingredients for an honest portrayal of life.

Gee whiz. That sounds like some fun reading! No wonder lit fic is so wildly successful!

But what if Mormons do not think that way?

You mean we tend to actually go and accomplish stuff, rather than whine about it? (or wait for the government to come fix it for us, but that’s a topic for another day).

“I think Mormons tend to have hope and believe in goodness and triumph, and those portrayals can ring false in a literary world,” Ms. Hale said.

Shannon is being very diplomatic in her response. My response would be a little more direct. “Why the hell would anyone want to read dreary, pretentious, wordy bullshit, and why the hell would I want to sit in front of a computer for hundreds of hours to write that?”

If the NYT reporter actually knew jack about his topic, he’d know that Mormon history has been filled with suffering. For not being around very long, we got run out of one state, then run out of another state, and another, freezing and starving the whole time, then our homes were burned by mobs, and it was actually perfectly legal to shoot us on sight, so then we all suffered and died in the worst exodus of the last few hundred years, in order to settle in the most godforsaken bit of country available. Then we worked our asses off and turned a wretched desert into something decent through the power of our industry and the strength of our backs, and then the army invaded us.

Ask any Mormon about the Haun’s Mill Massacre. Ask us about Johnston’s Army. Or Liberty Jail. Our church was founded in hardship, grew in hardship, but we are the definition of will not quit.  We stick to our guns, stick to our principles, and now we’re 15 million badasses worth of can do attitude who won’t quit until we feel like it.

My wife is descended from those pioneers. Mormons are still super proud of our pioneer history and learn about it constantly Me? I’m a convert, but I grew up descended from surly, angry, Portuguese dairy farmers, so strangely enough I fit in great.

The reporter seems to like comparing Mormons to Jews. They’ve had a much longer history of suffering. The thing is he’s probably writing this with liberal New Yorker Jews in mind, while Mormon culture is much more in line with Israeli Jews and their “Come at me, bro” attitude. Mark sees it as sunshiny. We see it as roll up your sleeves and get stuff done.

One of our popular hymns says Put your shoulder to the wheel and push along. Do your duty with a heart full of song. We all have work. Let no one shirk. Put your shoulder to the wheel.

Writing as a career means you have to work your butt off and hustle. Mormon culture still takes pride in having a work ethic. Anybody who takes this to heart will succeed in life. It isn’t a Mormon exclusive, and not even all Mormons get it. Mike Rowe gets it. So there’s another reason Mormons succeed in writing…   

When Mark uses the word sunshiny it is code for naïve. “Oh, those quaint and foolish Mormons, out there in red state in flyover country, clinging to their guns and religion, with their absurd outdated moral values. If only they could be enlightened, like the people who think exactly like I do.”  

Rachel Ann Nunes writes in the romance, paranormal, fantasy and young people’s genres, and she founded LDS Storymakers, an organization for Mormon writers. She said that Mormon theology makes otherworldly and escapist genres natural fits for church members. “We believe that God created a lot of different worlds,” said Ms. Nunes, who also writes under the name Teyla Branton. Jesus Christ came to Earth, and to America, but “atonement stretched for all the worlds,” she said. “It’s natural for us to think that a lot more might be out there.”

There are a ton of Mormon authors. Of course we can have some philosophical explanation for it, or it could just go back to that first bit about how we’re more educated and we like to read more than average. Readers make writers. And the generation of us that is writing genre now also happens to be the generation that grew up with that stuff as our primary reading material.

Of course, many non-Mormon Christians work in genre fiction, too.

No! Really? The NYT is super good at the maths!

 J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and C. S. Lewis a devout Anglican; Christian readers are among their biggest fans. Christianity and genre fiction both depend on Manichaean, good-versus-evil plots, and the savior motif, in which an anointed one saves the kingdom or the world, is important to sci-fi and fantasy and central to the Christian Gospel.

Well huh… All this time writing all these successful novels I thought I was depending on telling a fun and entertaining story! I never realized I needed… Manichaean… whatever. I’m sure Mark didn’t just use that word so he’d sound all sorts of smart.

Yet Mormons gravitate even more powerfully than other Christians toward genre fiction, and for reasons that have nothing to do with theology. For example, if you are a bookish young Mormon, your church role models work in genre fiction: major figures like Mr. Card and Ms. Meyer; young adult writers like Ms. Hale; and many others, like J. Lloyd Morgan and James Dashner, who work in genres within genres, like fantasy fiction for children.

Or me, or Brandon Sanderson, or Dan Wells, or Howard Tayler, or Jessica Day George, or Brandon Mull, or Richard Paul Evans, or Jason Wright, or Dave Wolverton, or John Brown, or Eric James Stone, or Steve Diamond, or Amber Argyle, or Zach Hill, or Brad Torgersen, or Rob Wells, or George Hill, or Julie Wright, or Tracy Hickman… All of those are writers who are Mormon who write for the national market, not “Mormon authors” writing for the LDS market.

Hmmm… Looking back over that list (and I know I’m missing a ton of folks since I’m just doing this off the top of my head) I see a bunch of bestsellers and really successful people. I also see a bunch of award winners. (but those awards like totally don’t count, because the NYT said so and stuff).

Success breeds success, established writers help new writers, and there are only two and a half million people in Utah. So the writing community tends to know each other, and we also tend to be a helpful bunch. It isn’t even a Mormon thing as much as it is a Utah thing (heck, look at my own Writer Nerd Game Night, Paul Genesse and Patrick Tracy are both Utah writers but not Mormons) only Utah is like 70% Mormon, so statistically it is going to work out that way.

Sure, the NYT can look for some weird philosophical underpinning that all Mormons—or blacks, Jews, or Asians—share (because you know all groups are just homogenous little voter blocks to big city liberals) but looking at that partial list above, I think it is more about strong networking in a relatively small community than anything.

But then we couldn’t have this pretentious article! 

Unsurprisingly, the heavily Mormon state of Utah has become an incubator.

Duh.

Brigham Young University, in Provo, hosts an annual Symposium on Books for Young Readers. Many members of LDS Storymakers live in Utah, where they can connect in person as well as online. The Utah-based children’s author Rick Walton runs an email list that further connects people.

“A lot of writers who might have gone another way have gone to children’s or young adult because of the strong communities,” Ms. Hale said.

So that part there hits on the nuts and bolts reality of the matter, but don’t worry…

But there is a specifically Mormon logic to the trend, too.

Because Mark quickly dismisses it in favor of his own pseudointellectual interpretation.

Realist literature for adults often includes aspects of adult life like sex and drinking, and the convention is to describe them without judgment, without moralizing.

Note that he proclaims this convention, but he doesn’t establish who it belongs to. That is a fun trick, like writing “some experts say (insert made up bullshit here)” or “FACT (insert more bullshit)”. 

I think Mark is flat out wrong on this one. I’m going to proclaim the opposite. Strong writing is going to have judgment and moralizing based upon the perspective of the Point of View character. But what do I know? I’m not a *real* writer.

Mormons don’t write about drinking? Huh? Just because I don’t drink doesn’t mean my characters won’t, and each one will have their own take on the subject. Jake Sullivan drinks, but usually only when somebody else is buying because he’s cheap. Owen Pitt doesn’t drink, but that’s because he worked as a bouncer and has zero patience for drunks. Lorenzo drinks sparingly, but only because he’s a health nut. Earl Harbinger drinks lots and lots of beer. But my record holder PoV is Francis Stuyvesant who is only outdrank by the master Raymond Chandler himself!  And come to think of it all of those guys had premarital sex, because their actions are consistent with the make-up of their character.

I’m pretty sure Dan Wells isn’t a serial killer. I don’t think John Brown serves a dark god. Brandon Sanderson, to the best of my knowledge, has never killed anybody by shooting nails with allomancy. And holy crap, some of Orson Scott Card’s short fiction is DARK. I’m talking child molester dark. So why this hackneyed nonsense about not being able to separate authors beliefs from their characters?

Because it simply isn’t true, but something being true will never hold back the New York Times!

By writing for children and young adults — or in genres popular with young people — one can avoid such topics. Mormon authors can thus have their morals and their book sales, too.

I’m a perfect example of why this isn’t true. I very specifically don’t write for kids. I write extreme levels of violence. Depending on the series, I write very realistic violence. Dead Six and Swords of Exodus were co-written with a veteran and proofed by a bunch of combat vets, and in the second book they take on the sunshiny topic of modern slavery. Or I write crazy over the top violence (I am the leading cause of Google searches for the term Snow-Go).

Personally, I don’t write sex scenes. Though I write things where you know damned good and well that sex has happened. I just tend to do the 1950’s movie style of cutting away. Why? Because of the audience I write for. Do you really think the average Correia reader, somebody searching for technically competent, two fisted action, explosion-o-rama adventure yarns wants to read a scene featuring my attempt at writing a steamy, yet totally pointless, sex scene? Hey, Tom Clancy readers, how many of you remember and cherish his few ham fisted forays in writing sex? Remember Bear and the Dragon? Yeah… Exactly.  I don’t need more descriptions of the Chinese secret agent’s magnificent wang again, thanks, Tom.

Now, if I was writing for Laurel K. Hamilton’s audience, then I’m going to sex it up. Different audiences, you give them a different product. (Gasp! He called it product! He’s not a *real* writer!) Brad Torgersen, Mormon author, who has been nominated for the Hugo/Campbell/Nebula (totally doesn’t count) is a great writer, and I know for a fact that man will go all sorts of sexy in his writing. I’ve had to make him clean up game fiction before I could put in on my blog. My kids read this page!

But of course, if I was a *real* writer, then my dreary navel gazing about the dying polar bears should be sporadically interrupted by sex scenes where afterwards everybody cries and talks about the cismale gendernormative fascism of the patriarchy and the symbolism of who was on top.    

“I’ll tell you why they write young adult,” said Ms. Nunes. “Because they don’t have to write the pages and pages of sex. They don’t want to spend a lot of time in the bedroom.”

The NYT is confusing all genre with YA, which is just one genre, and they’re also assuming that something YA can’t be sexy… Which shows that Mark hasn’t read much, because there is some R rated YA out there. YA doesn’t have straight up porn in it, but I can think of more Mormons who write adult than YA.   

In an email, Mr. Morgan added that the absence of sex in a novel can lead booksellers to pick a genre for it: “I believe that most writers who are LDS are by default labeled as ‘young adult’ writers because graphic sex scenes, graphic violence and swearing are omitted from their writing — even if the material is for a more mature audience.”

And here is another problem, one which I’ve talked about before. The entire concept of genre is fake. Genre categories exist for one reason, and one reason only, book stores need to know where to put stuff on the shelf. Period.

Look at my Grimnoir Chronicles trilogy. They are written for an adult audience, they’re well researched alternative history, but they’re fantasy with magic, only the magic is like super heroes, except the whole thing is written hard boiled noir pulp style… Yeah… I didn’t know what genre they were until Amazon assigned them to a category, but apparently they are Paranormal, because I’ve won two Audie Awards so far in that category, and in France they’re fantasy because I was a finalist for Best Fantasy there. So go figure.

But to the literati elite, what category you put a book in is everything. They don’t care about if the book is actually good, or fun, or entertaining, or uplifting, or thought provoking, or even sellable. They just care about checking boxes on a checklist. So why the hell should a bunch of college professors who’ve sold dick be the final arbiters of what is good or not?

Another factor is possible church disapproval.

This next portion is utter crap. I’ve written scenes of murder, torture, mutilation, genocide, and have brought in religious plot elements from Catholicism, Asatru, Wicca, myth, everybody’s folklore, and all of it has been heavily laced with profanity, and I’ve had one… count them one comment from a church leader in all this time, and it was “Wow. You sure do have a potty mouth” from a Bishop who then went on to read the rest of my novels.   

The novelist Brian Evenson said he was forced out of Brigham Young University for writing fiction that displeased church leaders, and in 2002 he was excommunicated.

Okay, since the vast majority of my blog readers aren’t Mormon, you probably didn’t catch that this part raises some red flags on the BS meter. Let me give you a doctrinal, nuts and bolts look behind the curtain of how my religion works.

First off, BYU is a school earned by the church, but it isn’t the church. It is our Notre Dame. When you go there you sign an agreement that you’ll follow their honor code. And personally, I think their honor code is ridiculous (and filled with a bunch of extraneous stuff that isn’t against any actual commandment in our religion, like drinking caffeine, which still drives me nuts because that is perfectly fine for the rest of us, but every time I go to a con people think I’m a bad Mormon because I’m drinking coke, thanks BYU)  I figure college students are adults with their own free agency, so they shouldn’t need the threat of getting kicked out of school to help them keep the commandments they’ve already committed to uphold. But I went to Utah State. Go Aggies.

So this dude got kicked out of BYU for writing fiction, yet I look at that list of authors above and I know that several of them went to BYU, and they’ve written all sorts of weird crap with no problems… I start to get suspicious. I’ve never heard of Brian Evenson, but 9 times out of 10 when the NYT trots out some disgruntled ex-Mormon (I swear they must keep a list) they usually have a grudge and can be counted on to reliably portray the rest of us as knuckle dragging morons.

Next, he was excommunicated in 2002. You’ve got to understand that Mormons save excommunication for serious stuff. Excommunication means we kick you out of our church entirely because your fundamental beliefs or behavior are no longer compatible. If you commit adultery or are convicted of a felony you usually only get disfellowshipped, which means you can still come to church, but you’re not allowed to hold any callings or do anything special or participate in any ordinances until you repent and get your life back in order.

Getting excommunicated means that you really pissed us off. Normally that means you murdered somebody (I’m assuming even the NYT isn’t that desperate) or you are continually preaching false doctrine which goes against the established teachings of the church. So a cursory Amazon search shows that Brian’s books are about the typical anti-Mormon BS of early church leaders murdering people in blood atonement and some weird crap about temple marriage, and having been married in the temple and knowing our doctrine rather well, from just reading just the back cover description of his book Open Curtain, uh… WTF is this crap? 

So for my non-Mormons readers, this would be like some member of your local church loudly proclaiming that he doesn’t believe any of your church’s doctrine, actively subverting what your church believes in, leading your fellow parishioners astray, and testifying that your preacher/pastor/priest has gay sex with farm animals. You don’t believe our doctrine? Fine. We’re not going to change it to suit your weird ass beliefs. Bye bye. Of course, now this person is exactly the unbiased source people should go to in order to learn about your religious beliefs.

When he was a child, he kept a journal, and his parents told him to “only record the happy things, and not the negative things.”

What a strangely useful remark from our disgruntled ex-Mormon that handily validates our reporter’s predetermined narrative!

It is the kind of instruction one cannot imagine coming from Jewish parents, or even from sin-worried evangelical Protestants.

Because remember, you all fit into neat little boxes. My kid’s journals have notes for windage and elevation adjustment clicks based on what load they are using… but I suspect they may be an anomaly.

In the Latter-day Saint culture of uplift and consensus, it somehow makes more sense. But it did not strike Mr. Evenson as being helpful for the budding artist.

Gee whiz… Yet hundreds of us have managed to sell millions of books while not being douchebags tearing down our religion! Poor Mr. Evenson. He’s quite the special snowflake.

“That kind of attitude, which is symptomatic in Mormonism as a whole, makes it very hard for some serious things to come out for Mormons,” Mr. Evenson said.

Yes. It is hard for *serious* things to come out of Mormons… Sure, we excel in science, engineering, math, finance, business, and even the arts, but we have totally failed to meet the NYT’s arbitrary and capricious standards of *real* writing… But don’t worry, the minute an active Mormon (or any other member of a group they don’t like) wins a Nobel Prize for Literature, it won’t count anymore either.

“There’s a weird pride in the limitations of the culture, and that to me is something that kills the possibility of artistic creation.”

Kiss my ass. Yeah, the way my religion says I shouldn’t beat my children while snorting cocaine off of a dead hooker is so limiting to my muse.

This is for all the aspiring authors out there who are hung up about creating art, put your big girl panties on, read this, and get to work:  http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/ask-correia-14-how-to-be-a-professional-author/

Patrick Madden, who teaches English at Brigham, says that there are Mormons who write excellent poetry — he mentioned his colleague Lance Larsen — and intellectually ambitious fiction. But he agreed that Mormon writers were comfortable with genre conventions.

This is kind of funny, because they are citing BYU as some sort of help. WRONG. They used to be good but over recent years the BYU English department has become as deluded with pretentions of literary greatness as the rest of the country. They’ve done their best to squash genre and focus on *real* writing.

One reason Utah has such a vibrant writing community is because of Dave Wolverton who writes under the penname Dave Farland. He taught BYU’s creative writing program for years, and he focused on the actual business end of writing instead of muses and dead authors nobody ever read to begin with. He had over 200 students go on to become professionals and 40 become bestsellers. That’s amazing. That’s a better success rate than any other creative writing program in the world. Brandon Sanderson, one of Dave’s former students, took over teaching Dave’s class. If an article about Mormon/Utah writers fails to note what Dave accomplished, then you know that zero research was done. And Dave did it despite BYU, not because of them.

Then there is the LTUE writing symposium. It is one of the best creative writing symposiums in the world. It was held at BYU for most of its existence. However, since BYU’s English department was hung up on *real* writing, we moved it first to UVU, and now it is being held off a college campus entirely. Thank goodness. If you want your writing to actually grow up GET OUT OF COLLEGE!

One problem with lit-fic, since it is almost impossible to make a living at it, is that it is mostly written on the side by college professors, published in prestigious literary journals (where you will be read by literally dozens—if you count the editorial staff) and then forced on students who’d rather be reading something actually entertaining. Newspapers then review it as brilliant, and socialites skim enough of it talk about it at parties. Meanwhile lit-fic ignores the rest of the world, and now we’re supposed to feel bad because those of us winning at life don’t satisfy them? Whoop-de-fricking do.   

“I think there is a pretty thriving LDS book culture,” Professor Madden said. “But a lot of it is faith-affirming and uncomplicated-type writing. Maybe that’s why there’s a pretty strong thrust of LDS genre writers. Because when you write sci-fi and so forth, things aren’t as messy as with realistic fiction.”

He sees uncomplicated. I see entertaining.

Realistic fiction… Why? If I have the ability to create whole new worlds from nothing, and populate them with fantastic characters, and then take them and do amazing things, why would I want to write “realistic” fiction? Most people read books to escape their reality. Why do I want to shove an even shittier reality in their face?

And you don’t need to be Mormon get that. You just need to exist outside the echo chamber of the literati elite and academia.

 

***One quick note while I’m bashing the NYT’s sloppy writing. I’ve had people ask how come I mock the NYT, but I’m proud to say that I’m a NYT bestseller. Fair enough. The NYT bestseller list, despite being terribly inaccurate, is still the most prestigious bestseller list in publishing mostly because everybody has heard of it. I tell somebody who isn’t even much of a reader that I’m a NYT bestselling author and that conveys a level of success. So I use it. As far as accuracy? It is crap. The list is based on a sampling of the sales of around two hundred secret bookstores, most of which are clustered in the north east, specifically New York. Nielsen Bookscan on the other hand, tracks about 75% of the book sales in the country, so it is way more accurate. And I’ve made the Nielsen list more often, ranked higher, and have stayed on it longer than I have on the NYT. Only when I say Nielsen Bookscan, the average person has never heard of it. So that’s why I use the NYTBSA bit. 

Space Eldritch 2. Now available in print
The Drowning Empire, Episode 36: Isao faces the Water Dragon

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238 Comments on "Fisking the NYT: It isn’t just me. My whole religion can’t be *real* writers!"

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dyingearth
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dyingearth
2 years 8 months ago

Larry, don’t hold back, tell us how you really feel…

David Kantrowitz
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2 years 8 months ago

In the latest episode of The Simpsons, Kent Brockman goes to NYC to look for a new job. He asks a Newsie where to find the NYT, and he replies, “This IS the New York Times!”

🙂

NR Pax
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NR Pax
2 years 8 months ago

Thanks, Larry. This is the kind of sunshiny writing I needed today.

Alan
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
While reading the article, I was astonished that he could begin by citing Ender’s Game, then go on to say that books by LDS authors avoid complicated moral issues which have no clear answer. He obviously hadn’t read Ender’s Game, or seen the movie, either. But that raises the question: why write this article at all? If he doesn’t respect fiction by LDS authors, then why even mention us? The answer is obvious: he’s worried. LDS authors keep churning out moneymaking novels, movies, and franchises, and this phenomenon can no longer be ignored. To those people who disagree with LDS… Read more »
Alan
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Also, Shakespeare was a fantasy author. A Midsummer Night’s Dream and The Tempest are some of his best plays. Julius Caesar features a soothsayer as a character, Macbeth has witches, and Richard III has ghosts, yet those plays are considered “histories” instead of fantasies. The only Shakespearean plays that lack fantastic elements are some of his comedies. And comedy writers are even less respected than fantasy authors these days.

You can’t criticize genre fiction without criticizing Shakespeare.

Rob Crawford
Guest
Rob Crawford
2 years 8 months ago

Actually, the soothsayer bit in Julius Caesar was cribbed from history.

Peter O
Guest
Peter O
2 years 8 months ago

What I was going to point out.

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool
2 years 8 months ago

Soothsayer may well have been mundane, as in history. I haven’t read the play.

Romans were real big on divination, it was, IIRC, involved in some of their political offices. Caesar, having pulled political strings, also held some religious offices.

He had, IIRC, apparently been manipulating some of the official prophecies for years.

My guess is that he figured the soothsayer was just an enemy pulling the same sort of stuff.

It is possible that the soothsayer knew of the conspiracy, and was trying to warn Caesar about it.

Ray
Guest
Ray
2 years 8 months ago

The weapon of mass instruction has been released.

Bob
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Loved it Larry. Not LDS, but I’m a librarian, so I guess I’m a traitor to some cause for loving entertainment reading and not liking lit-fic. You want to know a secret? (bet you already know the answer though) I check out a lot more entertainment reading than literature. I don’t keep track, but I can guarantee the J.D. Robb novels go out a lot more than Hemingway or Steinbeck. And what’s with the liberal attitude that money is bad if you make it through work, but good if you get it from the sweat of someone else? What these… Read more »
stephenfleming
Guest
stephenfleming
2 years 8 months ago

At least the author talked about “Mormons” and “other Christians”… some wouldn’t have gotten that right.

Julie Frost
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
“…things aren’t as messy as with realistic fiction.” I call bullshit, right there. Those are the words of someone who’s never read genre fiction in his life. The last serious thing I wrote involved a guy who had to deal with the fallout of a shadowy government agency forcing him to murder his best friend. The fact that he’s a werewolf (yes, because I am me) is completely secondary to the maelstrom of emotions he feels over that, and how he deals with it by NOT letting his inner wolf loose on the person responsible, but by doing it as… Read more »
Joel
Guest
Joel
2 years 8 months ago

Not messy? Wasn’t Ender’s killing another kid with his bare hands viewed as a good thing in select him for the program?! And he obvioulsy hasn’t read early Drake, Weber and Stirling.

Rich
Guest
Rich
2 years 8 months ago
This atheist is 100% on your side on this topic. Your faith is your business, and not something to be casually mocked. The NYT is despicable and dishonest, and has been for the better part of a century. I used to be part of that world. I’ve got a degree in English Literature from a prestigious East Coast university. I’ve actually taken a class on Feminist Literary Criticism (I smiled, told them what they wanted to hear, and got an A). I’ve spent a couple of hundred dollars buying such “deep” books over the years, but when I want to… Read more »
Kristopher
Guest
Kristopher
2 years 8 months ago

Heh. Too bad you hadn’t taken a vo-tech or STEM degree. A lot of money was sunk into that English Lit “certification”.

NKR
Guest
NKR
2 years 8 months ago
This last quote really gets me: “I think there is a pretty thriving LDS book culture,” Professor Madden said. “But a lot of it is faith-affirming and uncomplicated-type writing. Maybe that’s why there’s a pretty strong thrust of LDS genre writers. Because when you write sci-fi and so forth, things aren’t as messy as with realistic fiction.” Since he didn’t mention Brandon Sanderson in his article, he clearly doesn’t know about him and that in and of itself is proof this is a slap-dash opinion piece with zero research behind it. But Sanderson’s “Mistborn” is incredibly complex and certainly not… Read more »
Sheena Boekweg
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Holy crap, man. We need to be friends. I had so many people send this to me too, and I wanted to punch this guy in the throat. Yes, I’m a Mormon. Yes, I write genre fiction. But my Mormonism doesn’t make me write genre fiction, the awesomeness of genre fiction makes me write genre fiction. This guy obviously doesn’t read much. This article is just painful. Although I have to say I’ve had several people complain to me about the three instances of swearing in my novel, Alchemy. But maybe it’s because I’m a Mormon woman. The rules might… Read more »
Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago
It’s more likely because Larry’s first novel starred Owen, a giant pit fighter who bore a striking resemblance to Larry himself. I can personally attest to the resemblance. Owen put himself through college as a bouncer and illegal pit fighter. Until he beat one psychopath so badly he knocked an eye out and nearly killed him. With just fists. Anyone who read enough of MHI to see the swearing also read that part. And he’s also a competitive shooter who wouldn’t be caught dead without a gun or three strapped in various places about his person. Such people are seldom… Read more »
Michael Z. Williamson
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

The NYT still exists? Huh. Weird.

Curlywolf
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

The NYT is a self contained outhouse of self perpetuating stupidity. Full of fetid, rotting corpses who masquerade as people with functioning brains; which are in actuality nothing more than mountains of pigeon shit.

Pete
Guest
Pete
2 years 8 months ago

How DARE you slur the reputations of zombies and pigeon guano!?!

Kelli
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I am LDS and have never read your books (although I have read several of the authors you referenced) I have to tell you this made me laugh out loud several times and now I’m going to go to Amazon and find something by you to pick up for my winter “hot cocoa and a good book days”! Thanks for making my day!

Susan
Guest
Susan
2 years 8 months ago

Kelli, I am a HUGE fan of Larry’s…and I’ve given his books to my sons and friends…have even checked them out of the library for a friend to read since i won’t lend mine to non family members and I couldn’t get my hands on a copy to buy….and yes, they are great hot cocoa and good book days…esp if it is snowing.

oddmix
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

You are going to need more than one. One won’t last more than a single snowy day because you won’t be able to stop reading.

tooeleblogger
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Same here. 🙂

Bryan
Guest
Bryan
2 years 8 months ago

Speaking of not knowing which genre you belong to, neither does my library. They shelve your Grimnoir series in a different section of the library than your MHI series. One goes into Sci-Fi/Fantasy section, the other is shelved in the regular fiction section. I don’t remember off the top of my head which one is shelved where.

jabrwok
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

When it comes to fiction, my library doesn’t even bother trying to sort by genre. We put all fiction in it’s own section and sort by the last name of the Author:-). The only exception is Graphic Novels, which go in their own area and are sorted by Publisher.

Dr T
Guest
Dr T
2 years 8 months ago
Thanks for the rant Larry. As for Evenson, I was at BYU when everything went down and had professors that sided with him. The short version is that he wrote a book, Altman’s tongue, that is very violent and dark. The school leadership thought that it was inappropriate for a BYU professor. He left and got bitter. I’m not sure about why he got EXed. While I also think BYU is overly restrictive, it is the church flagship and they want the squeaky clear rep. Evenson wasn’t ignorant about the standards, so he had no reason to whine when he… Read more »
thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Because when you write sci-fi and so forth, things aren’t as messy as with realistic fiction.

Talking about LDS writers and claims “not as messy”? Did the person even read Ender’s Game (even the short form)? The story just drips moral ambiguity. (Not so much of the “Gray goo” variety but of the “between a rock and a hard place” variety.) While the real world might be “more messy” that’s pretty much as “messy” as fiction gets.

Chris Upchurch
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

“Genre categories exist for one reason, and one reason only, book stores need to know where to put stuff on the shelf. Period.”

Genres also exist to tell the literati what they’re supposed to look down their noses at.

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

I think genre categories exist so bookstores can fill my vision with stuff I might buy while searching for good reading.

Jim Allmon
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I’m not as eloquent as most people here, so I’ll just say… you nailed it. I love your books and stories for exactly the reasons you stated. Thank you, Larry!

masgramondou
Guest
masgramondou
2 years 8 months ago

… my religion says I shouldn’t beat my children while snorting cocaine off of a dead hooker …

Has me wondering whether there is a religion where that is one of the commandments. And if so what the others might be:

E.g
thou shalt smoke crack while fellating a bull

honor thy regular ho and her pimp and give them an extra tip during the holidays

thou shallt not commit adultery, but pedophilia is just fine

thou shalt not even mention the word gun, neither shalt thou draw it or make any graven image of one.

deadcenter
Guest
deadcenter
2 years 8 months ago

That’s not a religion, it’s the platform of the Democratic Party. 🙂

Jeff Gauch
Guest
Jeff Gauch
2 years 8 months ago

You say that as if there’s a distinction between religion and being a Democrat.

joecrouse
Guest
joecrouse
2 years 8 months ago

SOOO many smart ass comments… SO many reason that Larry would hunt me down and shoot me actually he would probably have a minion do it.

gerryatlwu
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Larry have you been researching me? I was in college for 6 years and I do have 200K in debt (but that is between school loans and my house XD). My degree was in CompSci though so it’s not all bad right? IMHO: The only time a writer’s political and/or religious views should factor in is for 1) statistical analysis, 2) if it affects the story in such a way as to render it as a poor story, 3) the author wants it noted I just wish more people were of the ‘live and let live’ variety instead of the… Read more »
masgramondou
Guest
masgramondou
2 years 8 months ago

Oh and the original article now has this hilarious correction:

Correction: November 9, 2013

An earlier version of this article misstated the genre of the author Terry Tempest Williams. She is an essayist in creative nonfiction, with a focus on environmental and social justice issues — not a fantasy author.

Is it wrong for me to think that “creative nonfiction, with a focus on environmental and social justice issues” sounds like the classic example of dreary pretentious politically correct crap?

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

Sounds to me like she’s now just a more sharply defined fantasy author.

Susan
Guest
Susan
2 years 8 months ago

You beat me to it…and said it more eloquently.

Pete
Guest
Pete
2 years 8 months ago

IDK… It sounds like a form of Fantasy that will never be popular…

masgramondou
Guest
masgramondou
2 years 8 months ago

There is that

Tam
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

She is an essayist in creative nonfiction, with a focus on environmental and social justice issues

I’ll bet THOSE are some can’t-put-down page-turners. 😀

LittleRed1
Guest
LittleRed1
2 years 8 months ago

Eh, the first one was OK – some beautiful writing about the family and specific events in the environment (high water in the Great Salt Lake) but “environment” and “women’s issues” took over and I quit her second book a few pages in.

Jeff Gauch
Guest
Jeff Gauch
2 years 8 months ago

Creative nonfiction, with a focus on environmental and social justice issues? You mean she writes the IPCC reports?

masgramondou
Guest
masgramondou
2 years 8 months ago

Ah yes. Glowball Worming.

Now that is a surprisingly popular sub-genre of fantasy. More popular for authors than readers, for the most part. But fantasy none the less. Although given that they frequently claim that it is “scientific” and is observably at odds with reality maybe she’s actually a “Science Fiction” writer not a fantasy one

Jeff Gauch
Guest
Jeff Gauch
2 years 8 months ago

It can’t be fiction. Fiction makes sense. Hence the “creative nonfiction” appellation.

masgramondou
Guest
masgramondou
2 years 8 months ago

But, but it’s such a compelling story, as long as you don’t corrupt it with pesky facts that is.

The polar bears are dying*, the seas are boiling**, there are more super hurricanes*** and we’re all doomed unless we bow down before the mighty goddess Gaia. See? makes perfect sense.

Of course the actual facts are oterhwise
*Polar bear populations are *increasing*
**Global oceanic temperatures are up some small portion of a degree – even surface ones. Down in the depths there is no noticeable change whatsoever
***In recent years we’ve seen fewer tropical storms with lower aggregate energy than ever in recent recorded history.

Brad R. Torgersen
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

A-YUP!

Tarl
Guest
Tarl
2 years 8 months ago

Ha. Environmental and social justice issues are definitely “creative” (in the sense of being made-up BS) but not non-fiction.

“Fantasy” is a very good description of such books!

accordingtohoyt
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

<3 That's all.

Tom
Guest
Tom
2 years 8 months ago
Holy crap on a cracker. I had this discussion with someone recently. They asked if I had considered writing about life in the Deep South, something like Faulkner. I responded that if I tried to do that, I would probably end up gouging my own eyes out with a melon baller. There is a reason that there is a stereotype of the drunken writer. If I felt like I had to write that crap day in, day out, I’d probably stay drunk as well. So-called “genre” fiction has a bad name, but why? Millions of people read the kind of… Read more »
Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

I don’t see the following quote in the article:

“Ye olde mission statement readest thus, deadlines loom, find they gonads within thy trousers, place thy ass upon the seat, set quil to parchement, and get paid, bitches.”

It seems a bit more Correia-ish than NYT-ish to me, but it’s in italics, not bold.

Peter O
Guest
Peter O
2 years 8 months ago

I think it is in regular text, not in italics. It was Larry captioning some word’s of wisdom from ol’ Bill.

stephenfleming
Guest
stephenfleming
2 years 8 months ago

I think it’s the Shakespearean version of “Evil looms. Cowboy up. Kill it. Get paid.” 🙂

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

Peter O, you are dead on correct.

I nearly posted ‘Larry needs to learn HTML’, but stopped the moment I envisioned the consequences of Mr. Correia posting: ‘I’m putting off Nemesis for a couple of months to learn HTML, thanks for the tip, Henchman!’

Joel
Guest
Joel
2 years 8 months ago

Dude, it’s the caption for the picture of Shakespeare!

junior
Guest
junior
2 years 8 months ago

I once took a Sci-Fi and Fantasy class at my local Community College. The instructor was a fan, and as we read Ursula LeGuin’s “The Left Hand of Darkness”, she made an interesting observation. She noted that critics used to complain that LeGuin “wasted” her talents on sci-fi and fantasy novels instead of “real” literature.

That’s the same sort of nonsense I’m seeing in the NYT piece.

Also, I figure Tracy Hickman probably ought to get at least an honorary mention, seeing as how popular the Dragonlance books he co-authored used to be back in the day!

Tarl
Guest
Tarl
2 years 8 months ago

A lot of LeGuin’s stuff is boring and preachy enough to qualify as “real literature”.

junior
Guest
junior
2 years 8 months ago

LeGuin’s an interesting author, and has had some pretty good ideas. The Earthsea books are probably her best known. But other books of hers that I’ve read include The Dispossessed (which talks about the problems in an anarchic society) and The Left Hand of Darkness (in which the humans living on a far distant planet naturally switch genders multiple times over the course of their lives). She’s got a knack for finding an interesting and unusual idea and running with it.

Curlywolf
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
I worked in the book industry for years. Worked for one of the major retailers in the nation. Every week we had to change out our main A frame where we kept the NYT “Bestseller” book list at the front of the store. And every, single, fucking. week. it was the same shit. Cook books, self help books, oprah reading list, plus a couple of back then…popular well known authors. Clancy, Coonts, Brown, Grafton etc. by and large though it was the aforementioned cook/pshrinkurself/oppie books. In Other Words. Books that outside of a few of the cookbooks, I wouldn’t even… Read more »
Pete
Guest
Pete
2 years 8 months ago

This isn’t the first time the NYT pushed the idea that Mormons can only create light, fluffy entertainment, and thus aren’t really capable of handling ‘deep’ issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/when-hollywood-wants-good-clean-fun-it-goes-to-mormon-country.html

I remember reading more articles than this that were variations on the same theme, but my google-fu is weak.

Matthew Bowman
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I actually was one of those people who DID think that Mormons weren’t allowed to have caffeine, possibly because of BYU-compliant adult Mormons. So thanks — I like getting things accurate, which is why I’ll never be NYT material. 😉

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

Interestingly, there are divergent views of that particular doctrine.

One camp (big) says “Hot Drinks” means caffeinated, including tea and coffee, and caffeinated soda came later, so got added to the prohibited list. Lots of older, respected LDS leaders see it this way.

Another camp, (tiny) says “Hot Drinks” includes hot chocolate and broth, and anything else hot to drink.

Another camp (huge) says caffeinated coffee and tea only.

The last camp just ignores it, and drinks their coffee quietly in the mornings: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.

junior
Guest
junior
2 years 8 months ago

My mission president used to tell us to avoid colas – “Avoid the appearence of evil” and all that. i.e. because lots of people thought that we weren’t allowed to drink colas, the missionaries (the face of the church for much of the public) should avoid drinking them.

Didn’t stop one of my companions from buying a case of Dr. Pepper every week when we went to the supermarket, though. Or our local ward mission leader in that area from raiding our fridge for Dr. Pepper whenever he stopped by our apartment.

😛

Dan Poore
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

“Didn’t stop one of my companions from buying a case of Dr. Pepper every week when we went to the supermarket, though.”

I didn’t know Dr. P counted as a caffeinated drink. 😛

(Or, as a former acquaintance put it: “Drinking Dr. Pepper for the caffeine is like dating your sister for the sex.”)

LaDawn Elm Davis
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Well that NYT article got you at least one more book sale. I’m from Utah, no longer consider myself Mormon, but obviously I know lots of intellectual and amazing people who are. Added your Hard Magic to OSC, JRR Tolkien & George Martin on my Audible List. Thanks!! <3 🙂

Minimum Wage Historian
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Dang, I guess I better stop writing sci-fi and fantasy and start writing “literature.” Who needs to get paid? Money’s for chumps.

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago
Zach, since your zombie book has forever disqualified you from the wine & cheese crowd anyway, please keep writing. I’m really looking forward to reading about Gaspar Correia in the zombie apocalypse. The biggest question is “What is Gaspar like when the chips are down?” There are certainly SF/Seals who are outrageous liars, but are still good to have around when the fan gets hit. There are also “Flashman” types who are soldiers, but craven cowardly weasels with the luck of the gods. Or he could be an utterly worthless armchair commenter who gets gakked day one. Inquiring minds (with… Read more »
Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

Clarification: I’ve never heard of U.S. SF types in either of the last 2 categories. They’d probably never make it through training.

I just thought I’d better make that absolutely clear. Foreign soldiers whom US SF trainers are unable to fail for diplomatic reasons are a different matter, obviously.

Minimum Wage Historian
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Oh! A Minimum Wage Historian zombie novel. Mr. Henchman, you sir, are a genius. I bet Napoleon would kick but. I wonder how Anna would handle herself though. She’d probably get Matilda and Mulan to be her body guards.

Tam
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I love you, man! 😀

STW
Guest
STW
2 years 8 months ago

Great! My oldest daughter has an application in with the BYU English Department. Her concern isn’t great literature but that kids read. Anything as long as they read.

Emily
Guest
Emily
2 years 8 months ago
I got my MA from BYU in English Literature. But after being told that writing my thesis on Harry Potter would be tantamount to career suicide if I ever wanted to be taken seriously in academia (I wrote it on the Lord of the Rings instead, which passed muster because Tolkien was an Oxford Don, but just barely) I decided that getting my Ph. D. and teaching at BYU just wasn’t going to happen. I was sick and tired of being told what to read and how to read it, and I wasn’t about to sentence myself to a life… Read more »
tariencole
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Reblogged this on The Worlds of Tarien Cole and commented: Don’t worry, it’s not just Mormons. It’s anyone who doesn’t check the right boxes, as Larry noted. Don’t qualify as a ‘victimized’ member of the underclass who can write White Guilt schlep of fake a biography (Roots I’m looking at you! http://www.amren.com/news/2012/03/alex-haleys-fraudulent-roots/) or even better, an autobiography (Yes, Mister President, I just got YOU in this discussion too), then you aren’t a ‘real’ writer. Pardon me for saying do, but I’d take a pile of money and fans waiting for my next book over a lifetime of living off a… Read more »
Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago
What do you have against Roots? Isn’t it obvious that a half dozen white guys can run down entire African villages with nets and drag them back screaming to ships while the meanest and fastest members of the tribe, who hunt and kill big game for a living (with pointy sticks) all cower in the bushes? Didn’t all slave owners back then beat, maim and cripple their livestock, just like they all do today? Ask Larry! He’ll tell you about his father forcing him to go beat the cows every morning until they give milk. They used a cat of… Read more »
tariencole
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

My Dad had a better idea than that. He sent me out in -30F Minnesota winter, to cut wood for the fire from the 20′ high pile. Of course, it was almost always petrified and the ax-handle would reverberate through my arms until they felt like worn guitar strings.

THEN I’d have to throw it down to the basement and stack it.

I’d take the cat of nine tails over that any day. 😛

joecrouse
Guest
joecrouse
2 years 8 months ago

STUPID QUESTION FROM THE GODLESS HEATHEN… for the idiot author at the NY Times…

If Mormons are so blasted happy and Positive about the future WHY do they have a basic policy of having a metric CRAPLOAD of supplies to last through what ever nonsense the rest of the world throws at them? People that are happy and positive do NOT stock a Metric CRAPLOAD of goods for when the fecal matter hits the air impeller. They roll the dice and hope the Deli stays open when the flood waters get waist deep. (stupid New Yorkers)

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago
Oh you godless heathen. Mormons are happy and positive about the future BECAUSE they’re the ones that will be prepared. You don’t get beaten, raped and murdered out of a couple of states, then eventually walk 1000+ miles to get away from the bastard neighbors without learning to be prepared. Once you’re prepared, you’re happy. Especially when you contemplate what will happen to those jerk neighbors when it hits the fan. Preparation also means guns, so you can laugh at the jerk neighbors while you piously spout the parable of the ten virgins. Or the ant and grasshopper. — Or… Read more »
Wraith
Guest
Wraith
2 years 8 months ago
“We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever. For from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them till the last drop of their… Read more »
thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Have you considered that maybe they can afford to be happy and carefree precisely because they have that metric crapload of supplies against trouble?

joecrouse
Guest
joecrouse
2 years 8 months ago

Good point Writerinblack hadn’t thought of that. Or more likely because they work hard enough to be able to afford all that stuff AND the necessities of life. Being well off (or as Larry puts it sleeping on a bit pile of money which i Hope he does just because it would be awesome) Tends to make one happy. and please note.. I wasn’t bashing Mormons at all That is why i directed the question from the writer from the NY Times.

jabrwok
Guest
jabrwok
2 years 8 months ago
Old joke: An old woman cruises through a stop sign and gets pulled over by a local policeman. She hands the cop her driver’s license, insurance verification, plus her concealed carry permit. “Okay, Mrs. Smith,” the cop says, “I see your CCW permit. Are you carrying today?” “Yes, I am.” “Well then, better tell me what you got.” Mrs. Smith says, “Well, I’ve got a .357 revolver in my purse. There’s a 9mm semi-auto in the glove box. And, I’ve got a .22 magnum derringer in my right boot.” “Okay,” the cop says, “Anything else?” “Yeah, back in the trunk,… Read more »
DaveP.
Guest
DaveP.
2 years 8 months ago
Actually had that conversation in real life… (wife of a fellow who had been invited to game with us, who had just noticed that the bulge on my right hip wasn’t just some oddly shaped goiter): “Omigawd, you’re carrying a GUN! What are you afraid of, that yo have to have a GUN?!” (Yours truly, in a voice of deep calm): “I’m not afraid of anything, lady… I’ve got a gun. What are YOU afraid of?” Things didn’t really break down,though, until Ms. Hysteric turned to the wife of the guy whose house we were gaming at, thinking that Shared… Read more »
Julaire
Guest
Julaire
2 years 8 months ago

On a complete tangent: While I quite like the TV show Revolution, I have to laugh every time I see a map of the post-apocalyptic US. Right where Utah is, is a non-country area labelled ‘Wasteland’. Obviously no one working on that show has ever been to Utah nor have they any grasp of Mormon culture. If the world went to pieces, Utah would make it through better than a lot of places and wouldn’t be a wasteland.

alligosh
Guest
alligosh
2 years 8 months ago

I dunno. A nuke to Hill Airforce Base could make a sizable hole in the north part of the state. Or possibly those left in Utah after the apocalyptic event are not communicating with the outside world (aka, announcing themselves as a new target), so show on the map as Wasteland?

pkudude99
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

The Folk of the Fringe has some interesting short-fiction takes on how Utah might develop after a nuclear war.

Brad R. Torgersen
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Larry, this fisking would have been so much more awesome if you’d made it into a pleading tear-jerker about a poor, misunderstood, introverted gay teenager who kills himself because his parents and friends don’t understand him. Because everybody knows Real Literature is about being sad and having no purpose in life beyond feeling bad about how sad you are, because you feel bad, because gay, because oppression, because mean people. Anyone who says differently is a racist.

Tarl
Guest
Tarl
2 years 8 months ago

Might be a good story if it had werewolves and vampires in it…

RabidAlien
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

And an internet troll doing the bullying.

fontofworlds
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
About Orson Scott Card– Not only were the Ender’s series laced with darkness– he had short stories that talked about freaking genocide and recarpeting desolated worlds, and a few post apocalyptic stories that would curl our NYT writer’s hair. He also wrote “Lost Boys” which was a semi-autobiographical horror story about the terrible things that can happen–to parents. Everything a liberal likes, except how being a part of a community and having faith in God pulls you through hell on earth. Oh yes, and there were children involved. They were treated like people, which was probably his first “mistake”. It… Read more »
Kent Larsen
Guest
Kent Larsen
2 years 8 months ago
Very disappointing, Larry. I couldn’t get to any good points you may have because of your irrelevant and biased anti-intellectual and anti-liberal rants. They are out of control and don’t help your point. Did you ever consider that maybe the reason Oppenheimer focuesed the way he did is because he was looking at why Mormon writers seem to be successful in genres and not in literary fiction? Whether or not he is biased to thinking that literary fiction is better is really beside the point, and your overreaction just makes you seem like a looney toon!! The argument over whether… Read more »
thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Kent Larsen
Guest
Kent Larsen
2 years 8 months ago

Ah, here we go. Someone disagrees, so we label them a troll.

Must be great when you can enforce living in an echo chamber.

thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Sorry but “someone who disagrees” would actually discuss content, with specifics. Generic insults like “anti-intellectual” are not “disagreement”.

“Argument Clinic” was a comedy routine, not a how-to:

Kent Larsen
Guest
Kent Larsen
2 years 8 months ago

Big difference. He is still being dismissive just because I’ve bothered to express my disagreement. Its still an “echo-chamber” protecting move.

Kent Larsen
Guest
Kent Larsen
2 years 8 months ago

“Sorry but “someone who disagrees” would actually discuss content, with specifics. Generic insults like “anti-intellectual” are not “disagreement”.”

Sorry, I though the anti-intellectuallism was rather obvious. If you want a list, I certainly can provide it.

But your attitude makes me think you don’t really want it.

thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

With every post you demonstrate that I nailed it.

thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

You see, what you’re calling “anti-intellectualism” is actually anti-pretentiousness.

Tom
Guest
Tom
2 years 8 months ago

Since when is thinking someone is a pretentious snob “anti-intellectualism”?

The truth is, while I know a lot of Ph.Ds who are wonderful people, I know a lot more that actually are pretentious snobs who think that anything that doesn’t fall into “X” category is fluff for the masses versus literature.

Of course, the fact that this “literature” many of them love actually sucks is irrelevant.

chestercrowley
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I wonder if Kent could define dismissive to me. Isn’t a reply to a comment the opposite of dismissive? Oh, and Kent, you think you got “piled on”? Yes the name-calling is childish and stupid, but you were nowhere near being “piled on”.

Julie Frost
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

“Whether or not he is biased to thinking that literary fiction is better is really beside the point…”

No, actually, that is EXACTLY the point. Oppenheimer completely dismissed genre fiction (and especially genre fiction by Mormons) as being OMGunworthy without actually Doing the Research or knowing what the hell he was talking about–and was justifiably ripped to shreds. I thought “intellectuals” were SUPPOSED to be smart enough to actually look at facts and THEN draw conclusions, rather than cherry-pick what they think are facts to support their biases–

Oh, wait, no they’re not. Nevermind.

thewriterinblack
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
And now, I’m going to put on my own “intellectual hat” here for a moment. Returning to something close to the original thesis, one has to consider what the purpose of “literature” is and what actually accomplishes that purpose. I submit that, when it comes to written fiction, the purpose (if one goes beyond “make money for the author”–something which I do not disparage for its own sake, but we’ll come back to that shortly) is to create an emotional resonance within the reader. The reader reads, and is touched in ways that generate that emotional response. Now, some folk… Read more »
jabrwok
Guest
jabrwok
2 years 8 months ago

Speaking of Shakespeare as popular fiction, can you, or anyone else, recommend some good novelizations of Shakespeare’s plays? Not modernized versions, but historical fiction using the actual characters and staying as true to both the stories and the vocabulary (if not the iambic pentameter) of the original plays as possible?

Wesley Nichols
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Are you AWARE that you’re a douche nozzle? Or do you just blunder on in blissful ignorance?

trackback

[…] Larry’s Article […]

AJ VanOrden
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
As far as “And holy crap, some of Orson Scott Card’s short fiction is DARK. I’m talking child molester dark. So why this hackneyed nonsense about not being able to separate authors beliefs from their characters? ” goes- You should see some of the garbage I see spouted by more leftward sci-fi fans about Card, contrasting his writing to his political views and coming to the conclusion he must be a self-loathing closeted-homosexual, have been molested himself, or worse, come just shy of accusing him of child molestation and letting it leak out into his work. They honestly can’t comprehend… Read more »
junior
Guest
junior
2 years 8 months ago
The irony is that the “Bad Things”(tm) that the paths of Card’s characters are a part of his religion. Really, really, really bad things invariably happen to Card’s protagonists. And as a result, they become better people. It’s an acknowledged truth both of the LDS religion and of the world at large that overcoming adversity makes you a stronger person. Which, of course, means that some of Card’s protagonists must be just about the strongest people around… I also suspect that some of the hostility toward Card is because he’s openly a Democrat. His haters see someone who’s at least… Read more »
pkudude99
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Card’s own thoughts on the subject of evil in fiction written all the way back in 1980. Money quote: Over the years, some people whose judgment I respect have asked me a question that you might think is naive, but it is not. “Why do you have to write such depressing stuff? Why can’t you show the good things in life? Why do all your characters have to suffer?” Well, why indeed? After all, fiction isn’t fact. Fiction is lies. Those people are made up. They’d better be-if they’re not, you can get sued. As long as you’re making things… Read more »
Adam G.
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

This reminds me of that P.J. O’Rourke essay that begins, ‘well, I feel a spate of better writing coming on.’

Thanks for going Porter Rockwell on a group of folks who deserve it.

Birthday girl
Guest
Birthday girl
2 years 8 months ago

” We see it as roll up your sleeves and get stuff done. ”

Damn right. Where’s Kaylie?

Nick
Guest
Nick
2 years 8 months ago
I get the feeling this guy’s knowledge of Mormon literature comes from casually browsing the Deseret Book website, plus knowing what Twilight and Ender’s Game are. I’m a semi-agnostic liberal, who drinks, smokes, swears, has premarital sex (though less than I’d like), and I’ve never once felt like MHI or any other books by Mormon authors (I don’t know which ones I’ve read were Mormon, but I’m guessing you’re not the only one) weren’t “adult” enough for me. I enjoy “real literature” sometimes, but most days I’d rather read something by Carl Hiaasen or Elmore Leonard or Christopher Buckley, because… Read more »
joecrouse
Guest
joecrouse
2 years 8 months ago

raises a toast to a fellow philistine agnostic economic conservative.

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

Howdy fellow athiest!

Yet another godless heathen fan of Correia here. I’ve known plenty of Mormons, and we’ve discussed lots of LDS doctrine. They make great neighbors.

“We can’t be sure of anything,
(our limits we perceive)
but if you know that you can’t know
(you certainly don’t believe)”
— from “You’re an Athiest” by Penn Jillette.

Annette Lyon (@AnnetteLyon)
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
*Applause* I agree with 90% of what you’ve written here (which, if you know my strong opinions, is saying a lot). I had the misfortune to have Evanson as my teacher while I was at BYU. I’m pretty sure his book was already at that point, and he was still teaching. His writing aside, he was, hands down, the WORST professor I had in the English department as an English major. It was like he didn’t even try but assumed his ego and arrogance would do the job. I left thinking the class he was pretty much a jerk. I… Read more »
Amber Argyle, author
Guest
Amber Argyle, author
2 years 8 months ago

I considered going off in this article, but I was lazy (how unMormonlike of me!) and decided to let you take it.

I’ll just say one thing: Winter Queen is the OPPOSITE of sunny. It’s dark and heart wrenching.

And I haven’t been excommunicated yet.

So suck it, NYT!

Brad R. Torgersen
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

HAH! Amber in the center square for the win.

J-
Guest
J-
2 years 8 months ago
I have a great deal of respect for the academic accomplishments of the modern LDS church (BYU and Mormon funded medical research) a long with the fact the LDS church is one of the few sects of Christianity that has not persecuted the Jews. I have not read any of your books, although I do enjoy your blog. That said, Orson Scott Card’s Ender’s series is a massively shitty sci-fi franchise. Sorry. My absolute favorite sci-fi book is Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein. Ender’s series is the anti-Starship Troopers. Cards’ writing takes no pride in victory against a species… Read more »
joecrouse
Guest
joecrouse
2 years 8 months ago
I disagree with your assesment that The Forever war is Anti War Anti Technology or even Anti American. Its about the POINTLESSNESS of war and its about a man caught out of his time. a stretched out version of what happened to Mr Haldeman in his exploits in Vietnam. See you go overseas for a long time where you really don’t have a lot of contact with the greater society you might get little bits and pieces but not the gestalt and that society just kinda chugs on without you so you get less and less adapted to the times.… Read more »
alligosh
Guest
alligosh
2 years 8 months ago

Honest question: If Forever War is about the pointlessness of war, how can it not be described as anti-war? Isn’t describing the pointlessness of something in detail inherently arguing against that same thing? Is it possible to argue the merits of something by discussing the pointlessness of that same thing?

Keith Glass
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

The title offers a great look into Mark’s predetermined world view. Normally “cautionary lessons”

And THIS, in the eyes of the NYT, is why you fail: any properly snooty “literary” author would use “weltanschauung”, not “world view”.

And you speak of the horrors Mormons have encountered in history, but not the biggest horror that the LDS have inflicted on the world. I refer, of course, to the Osmonds. . .

In short, I’d say just continue laughing all the way to the bank, Because only Chris Christie actually WANTS the approval of the New York Times. . .

Tom Mays
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Reblogged this on The Improbable Author and commented:
Grat rant on the disregard religious writers and genre writers are given at the New York Times. Read it!

rasquirelaskar
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
The Bear and the Dragon. Gott im Himmel, did you have to remind us of The Bear and the Dragon? And why it was so frakkin’ long? I could cut the pages devoted to the “Secret Agent’s special equipment” out of the book, bind them, put a cover on it, and it would qualify as a doorstopper all on its own. And what makes things even funnier is, I’ve got a copy of “The Cardinal of the Kremlin” that I bought at a used book store, and someone had crossed out all the swear words. OK, maybe it’s only funny… Read more »
Jettboy
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Great article! My own post questions the very idea there can be any conscious Miltons and Shakespears. We should stop worrying about the Great Mormon Novel, and just write; although improvement is always good.

http://www.millennialstar.org/unrealistic-expectations-of-mormon-miltons-and-shakespeares/

Here is another Mormon author thad didn’t write a “sunny” story, although it is genre in the mold of X-Files:

http://www.parkingorbitpublishing.com/

One last thought, I have been really surprised by the great comments here standing up against the NYT. Its refreshing to know not all conservative voices have been silenced. We need to start writing our own pretentious books, even in jest.

Cap'n Jan
Guest
Cap'n Jan
2 years 8 months ago
Sheesh, Larry. The NYT, (et al.), are the ones that tout that writer of bad soap operas, Garcia Marquez. “Nobel Prize Winner!!!” they chortle! The naked emperor in the room is: his novels read like sleezy soap operas – but they aren’t even as interesting as General Hospital. Not one character to identify with, not one character worthy of respect. I struggled through two of his ‘novels’, took a long hot shower and feel much better now. Sure, humans CAN be rotten, but they can also be heroic. The zeitgeist in writing is that now, we must ‘celebrate’ all that… Read more »
Irish Luck
Guest
Irish Luck
2 years 8 months ago

The sadly hilarious part (well, one of many), is that Manichaeism was a belief Christians rejected centuries ago because it’s completely out of line with their faith–something Tolkien and Lewis would have known quite well, being a historian and a major apologist respectively. If their works really are reflections of their beliefs, then by definition they would NOT be Manichaean.

The author tries to sound smart by dropping in big words, but ends up looking like even more of a moron to those who know Church history.

Doppelbock
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

NYT must have been desperate for filler to run that piece of crap. I’m not a conservative by a long shot but that’s just shoddy, biased reporting on an irrelevant topic.

Am I a lesser person because I love to read sci-fi, fantasy and other genre books? I think that all the bashing of the authors is also a sideways swipe at the audience for those genres. And why bring up specific races when your article is supposed to be about a specific religion? None of it makes sense.

Chantele Sedgwick
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

That. Was. Awesome.

RabidAlien
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

“William Shakespeare presents Star Wars vs. The Avengers III: The Jedi Hulkening”

Please post an address to which I can send money for this!!! Heck with that, I’ll just forward my paycheck automatically!!!! Take my money!!! Give me movies like this!!!!!!!

Awesome fisk, as well. Always great to “watch” a bully/liberal (but I repeat myself) not only be stood up to, but handed their “intellectual” arse.

Steve Alligood
Guest
Steve Alligood
2 years 8 months ago

This should TOTALLY be the next kickstarter! 🙂

Pete
Guest
Pete
2 years 8 months ago

This should TOTALLY be he next ‘Christmas Noun’ Story!

Steve Alligood
Guest
Steve Alligood
2 years 8 months ago

oh, yeah! Christmas Noun is coming up! oorah!

Old Hoplite
Guest
Old Hoplite
2 years 8 months ago
I couldn’t agree with you more, Mr. Correia. I do not care one whit who a writer is or what pretensions they might have, I just want to read wacking good stories that entertain. So I read you and Tom Kratman and the “Jack Reacher” novels and so on. I suffered through enough reading of “great” books when I was in college and now I do not suffer it. I would like to relate a story, when in high school I had to take the mandatory lit. class. I full expected to be subjected to much boredom. Instead our teacher… Read more »
perlhaqr
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Dude. If you know of any $30 an hour welding jobs (that aren’t out in the Bering Sea), let me in on it!

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 8 months ago

What do you have against the Bearing Sea?

Raaaaaacist!

Phil
Guest
Phil
2 years 8 months ago

So, the NYT now thinks Mormons can’t be authors. A year ago, it was “A Mormon Can’t Be President”.

I’m wondering how many years before they release the list of all six jobs they think you folks should be allowed to do?

Jettboy
Guest
Jettboy
2 years 8 months ago

You have to admit that they were right he couldn’t be president. Then, I am sure they would say that about any Republican.

Dave Wolverton/aka David Farland
Guest

Whoa, Larry, at first I was going to recommend that you drop a couple of quaaludes and calm down, but then I realized that watching you go off was just too fun!

Then I realized that my inner desires were at odds with my sunny disposition. So now I would suggest that you hold a daisy, pet it, say a prayer, and smile until you feel as if your teeth will break.

chestercrowley
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
Is this the same Dave/David mentioned above who taught many in the ways of the word? Are you still teaching? My mind is empty; I could use a few lessons. Oh, and Larry, you had me rolling when you said your children’s journals record wind and elevation information. That’s precious, and priceless. As for the rest of the article: very bold, but your style is also filled with sarcasm. You write well enough that it’s fairly easy to see most of the sarcasm, but maybe newcomers to your blog don’t yet understand that. Kent for instance will probably be smacking… Read more »
M. Ann Rohrer
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Ditto to everything you said, (minus the salty language, haha). What’s the chances that NYT would publish your rebuttal? (Bigger haha)

Susan
Guest
Susan
2 years 8 months ago

This was brilliant. I… just… THANK YOU. I want to write a ten pages worth of compliments, but that would be boring, so instead I’ll just say: rock on, man.

Janiel Miller
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

I am totally putting this quote in vinyl letters on a painted 2×4 in my family room: “Ye olde mission statement readest thus, deadlines loom, find thy gonads within thy trousers, place thy ass upon the seat, set quil to parchement, and get paid, bitches.”

Don Milne
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Larry channeling some Porter Rockwell here. His six-shooters are smoking.

Jayden Bryce
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

If writing in the RPG business and video game design counts, one Mormon to add to the I-Don’t-Write-Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy-Stuff Club is Sandy Petersen. He wrote the rule book and some of the scenarios for the RPG “Call of Cthulhu” and worked on a little game called “Doom” that featured a demon or two in it and a few veiled hints of satanic imagery. 🙂

Joel
Guest
Joel
2 years 8 months ago
My first thought was, “Dude, you’re a Mormon?! I had no idea!” I am afraid I know little about LDS. Mainly from references in books. Louis L’Amour referred to their persecution and migration in one of my favorite books, Bendigo Shafter. In the only other two references they were the bad guys(Conan Doyle and Zane Grey. Lol). I forgot the second thing I wanted to say. But the third was this; dude, you suck. Do you have any idea how long it took me to forget Clancy’s jade sausage?! Years! Fracking YEARS! I love you and your books but you… Read more »
Janette Rallison
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

This was an awesome article and said so many of the things I’ve been saying–but without the swearing. Loved it, Brother Correia!

Mike
Guest
Mike
2 years 8 months ago

Mormon’s are naive and intellectually lazy, explains a naive and intellectually lazy NYT writer.

Emily G (@EmmmieG)
Guest
2 years 8 months ago
As a homeschooling mother, I put together a little course for my boys in genre literature. I picked out what I considered to be important genres, and then decided on an early pioneer. (I was aiming for the first commercially successful writer that I could think of in that genre.) Verne, Kipling, Austen, Poe, Arthur Conan Doyle, Robert Louis Stevenson, Tolkien, Mary Shelley, Dickens, Humor, and yes, Zane Grey–just not Riders of the Purple Sage. I made the boys read a short bit from one of the author’s pieces, and then we discussed what the characteristics of each genre were.… Read more »
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[…] And left a whole lot of very long comments on my friend’s post, but everything I said, this guy said better, with more swearing (and I must say, I was certainly having four-letter feelings, even […]

Braden
Guest
2 years 8 months ago

Thank you, sir. As a Mormon who sort of is into the whole forgiveness and charity thing, I have to say it was really, really enjoyable to see someone in my team throw a punch. And I’m a Mormon middle grade author. Which means I deal exclusively in sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns. So that’s really saying something.

trackback

[…] good New York Times article (too many books sold aint good lit!) and the reverse elitism of Larry Correia’s mostly good rebuttal (not enough books sold is pointless lit!)—or Scott Hales’s look at the brouhaha for […]

Monte
Guest
Monte
2 years 8 months ago
While living in Utah I found there is local support for writers groups, “Utah League of Writers”. I joined the Provo chapter, we had a mix of members LDS and Non-LDS. Several members went on to become successful writers. There seems to be an underlying support for arts in the state. As for me I read for entertainment or learning not to wallow in the muck of what people tell me is “true literature”. The same goes for movies. I have times when I just want to go see something that can funny and off the wall. I wonder what… Read more »