Political Fun with Facebook

I know that many of my blog readers also follow me on Facebook or Twitter, so you probably know that I have a bit of a reputation for getting into political debates. Often these aren’t my own fights, but usually I jump in if I see a friend of mine getting bulldozed. Combine that with a topic that I happen to know a lot about, and I just can’t help myself.

I got into this kerfuffle yesterday.  You guys have heard me go off on the topic of how the publishing industry has a liberal bias, and how the Secret Masters of Fandom go out of their way to squash writers who have dissenting views, either through threats, boycotts, intimidation, or slander. (do a search here for anything labeled hate mail)  I’ve pointed out this pattern before.

This is really two seperate issues. First, if you are an out of the closet, politically active, outspoken anything-other-than-left-wing author, your odds of getting published go down, and it is a running joke in sci-fi/fantasy that if you fall into that category your only hope of getting picked up is Baen.  Second, once writers come out with any opinion that deviates from the group think, they are pounced on and intimidated into silence.

Before on this blog, we’ve gone through the liberal response pattern to any dissenting thoughts (had a lot of fun picking out these in the 2,500 comments of the big gun control essay). Skim through the article far enough to find something to get offended by and then dismiss the whole thing.  Or, if you feel like putting in the work, find some way to say they’re not a *real* author, ridicule them, say that they’re  too “angry”, strawmen their argument, pick something that is unanswerable or unsatisfiable and then demand proof, if given proof ignore it, (and remember anecdote isn’t evidence until that anecdote is printed in a reputable publication like Salon or Mother Jones) and when all else fails insinuate racism.

Between these two issues it makes it so that there are fewer outspoken conservative or libertarian authors, and those that there are, have to keep their mouths shut because they are afraid of offending their editor/publisher, or being the victims of a SMOF lynching.

I’m cool on both type of problems, becaue I’m with a publisher that cares a lot more about the quality of my writing and how many books I can sell than my personal beliefs, and I’ve got enough fans that I can freely mock the Righteous Indignation Brigade. Luckily I’ve found that for every one person I offend by honestly sharing my opinions, I pick up two or three new ones who are happy to have a writer who doesn’t mock their belief system.

But this is still a pet peeve issue of mine.

So my buddy, Super Author Brad Torgersen, (who happens to be conservative, and is an Chief Warrant Officer in the US Army) wrote this article about the nerfing of sci-fi.

http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2013/03/11/science-fictions-political-failure-3-han-solo-shoots-first/

So of course, this popped up on Facebook about it. I didn’t get involved for a bit, but when I did, it got pretty funny. The originator eventually deleted it, but of course, one of my fans had saved it. (because you guys are awesome like that). Thanks, Ken.

For the record, I’ve got no issue with the thread originator. Marguerite conducted herself well, and wasn’t a freak out ninny-hammer like many of the posters. Good for her. She struck me as somebody who I’d disagree with, but she was cool.

I really wanted to share this, and also add some more comments, because this little FB thread illustrates how arguments between liberals and conservatives usually unfold. There are so many delightful little patterns in here!  My additional comments will be in bold. I tried to cut out all the extraneous FB crap. (note, whenever I post “I had waffles for breakfast” 72 people will Like that comment).

Marguerite Reed via Brad Torgersen

OH SWEET FLEECY HAND-POTTED INDIGO CHRIST YOU GUYS JUST. DO. NOT. GET. IT.

                        

Science Fiction’s political failure 3: Han Solo shoots first

My friend and editor at Orson Scott Card’s Intergalactic Medicine Show, Scott M. Roberts, posted this rather stunning piece of commentary to Facebook this morning. I’ve quoted him in blocks below, …

Virginia Phillips The article is too long, and your comment too concise, for me to follow you clearly. What upsets you most about it?

Marguerite Reed It’s bitching about “cultural sensitivity” in specfic. The essay is agreeing with someone else’s essay arguing that the policing of “culturally sensitive” issues in specfic has rendered science fiction toothless.

Michelle M. Heitman I don’t know…I rather liked it. It’s so rare that you see such a perfect and shining example of reducio ad absurdum published, these days.

Robert Feldacker I think I agree with Marguerete here. The author seem to take the incident of people objecting to Orson Card’s odious views and inflate them to a rejection of all characters with bad traits, if I’m understanding the article. I actually think readers like flawed characters and always have, but readers are also aware of the character and actions of the authors- and often were in the past as well, which contributed to the colorful lives of some authors by allowing them to build character through suffering :)

Marguerite Reed Now, certainly I can agree that TV and film SF are pretty toothless, but that’s pretty much the nature of the medium these days. NOT in the written form.

Brad Torgersen If SF still has teeth, they only bite one-way. Again, the genre that ties itself into knots over who it may be offending on any given day is not a genre that can call itself dangerous anymore. JMHO.

Marguerite Reed If I may go out on a limb here–this is the same sort of whining we women hear from Nice Guys™.

Marguerite Reed Mr. Torgerson, let’s establish whether we’re discussing written SF or viewed SF, before we join combat, deal? :)

Brad Torgersen Deal.

Brad Torgersen Also: precisely how do “Nice Guys” whine, and what does it sound like specifically? I am curious.

Dexter Guptill I read plenty of sci-fi with teeth. And don’t own a TV.

Marguerite Reed I am personally talking about written SF. As I said above, pretty much anything on film or on tv is toothless–why? Because MONEY.

Marguerite Reed So sure, Lucas is gonna be all poopy about Han shooting second.

Marguerite Reed After all, Ewoks.

Marguerite Reed So Brad, can you give me an instance in the world of written SF where the genre tied itself into knots over who it offended?

Brad Torgersen If you belong to SFWA you might be aware of one going on right this second.

Marguerite Reed I am torn between responding to this facetiously and respodning to this maturely.

Marguerite Reed Mr. Torgerson, as I am not yet a member of SFWA (and rather unsure that I’d ever want to become a member) would you tell me what the latest controvery is?

Brad Torgersen Presently, members of SFWA are quite upset that a certain cover appeared on the SFWA Bulletin, and that a certain Hugo-winning author and editor noted that beautiful editor Bea Mahaffey was beautiful. Many knickers have been twisted.

Marguerite Reed But that’s not a genre, that’s an organization.

Brad Torgersen The organization pretends to own the genre. One of the organization’s problems, I think. I am critiquing the genre according to the rules as established by the “bastion” in our midst. (not the scare quotes.) But this is just one in a long, long line of floggings, scolding, public upheavals, etc, in recent years. Many authors and editors have been dragged through the mud. Often by people with far less talent and far more time on their hands than the target(s) themselves.

Marguerite Reed As long as you’re here, what’s the differnece between cultural sensitivity and cultural awareness?

Brad Torgersen I think Scott M. Roberts said it best: the former is reactive and exclusive, while the latter is proactive and contex-conscious. I would add: the former is concerned with avoiding controversy, while the latter may invite controversy, but intelligently and for the right reasons.

Marguerite Reed How can one make that objective rather than subjective terminology? Could it be simply that the word “sensitive” has developed into a term that elicits a knee-jerk reaction, while “awareness” is still somewhat neutral?

Marguerite Reed How is being sensitive any different from being aware?

Marguerite Reed And now that SF belongs to everyone, rather than simply a specific demographic, the opportunities for bravery, courage, truth-telling, BOLDNESS have only increased.

Brad Torgersen Yes, it is subjective based on the experiences of all of us, of course. My experience is that any time someone begins talking about sensitivity, that’s code for shutting people down and shutting people up. One can be aware and still tell a story that reflects truth. Especially truths that are not exactly flattering. Sensitivity is often a tool used by people who demand flattery, or silence. One or the other.

Marguerite Reed But Brad, did you ever think thatit is maybe time for your demographic to be silent for a little while?

BOOM!  This is the comment that got my attention. It was like somebody just turned on the Correia Signal. Liam Neeson spoke with the voice of Zeus and shouted “RELEASE THE CORREIA!”  Sadly, there was a bunch of other stuff afterwards before I had a chance to jump in.

Brad Torgersen Look at what you said. Now, look at it again. Now, look at it a third time. Tell me if you think you can spot the problem.

Marguerite Reed “now that SF belongs to everyone, rather than simply a specific demographic, the opportunities for bravery, courage, truth-telling, BOLDNESS have only increased”

Marguerite Reed (Mind you, I don’t disagree with your statement that SFWA pretends to own the genre.)

Barth Anderson Wait. Before this goes too far afield. What are you really talking about, Brad? Commit to defending something culturally/politically “dangerous” in written sf. Your comment defending the n-word as written in Huck Finn is duly noted, but that’s Mark Twain, Certifiably Dangerous for over a hundred years. You seem to be talking about something in sf specifically. Are you? Can you give an example of the Mark Twain equivalent in our literature and not in some internet kerfuffle going on behind closed doors? Honestly interested, not baiting, I promise.

Francis Murphy To Kill A Mockingbird is more recent and features controversial words. Someone will want to redact that soon.

Scott M. Roberts >>But Brad, did you ever think thatit is maybe time for your demographic to be silent for a little while?<<

My demographic is “people who believe that freedom of expression is paramount to to the exercise of all other human freedoms.”

Given that, I will be silent when I’m dead.

Wait- I’m a writer. Given luck, I’ll never shut up! Even if its just an echo.

Barth Anderson Francis Murphy — How about sf. Written in the last 10 years. Let’s set up some parameters and see who’s been POLITICALLY INCORRECT (TM). :)

Susan Groppi wait wait wait, the bit where some SFWA members have objected to their professional organization’s trade publication having half-naked ladies in cheesecake poses on the cover, that’s the best example of “sensitivity run wild” that Brad can come up with? I think that when your great example is such crap, you should just concede the argument.

Marguerite Reed No, Mr. Roberts, I don’t think that’s your demographic.

Scott M. Roberts Okay. :-)

Marguerite Reed When I say it’s time for your demographic to sit down and be quiet fr a while, I mean the people who have had full rein at play in the fileds of SF. Perhaps instead of acting defensive and hurt because you or people whom you perceive as people being like you got called out, you should close your mouth and open your ears and listen to what they have to say, instead of simply waiting your turn to talk. I got told to sit down and shut up at my first WisCon, and while that stung like hell, I did it–and I learned.

For the many people here who don’t go to sci-fi conventions, Wiscon is all about feminism and all of the usual buzzwords for when liberals go to pray at the sacred altar of victimhood.

Marguerite Reed On the other hand, perhaps we should go back and define jsut what the hell “toothless” means.

Francis Murphy Barth, Mark Twain wasn’t SF for the most part.

Marguerite Reed No, but Mark Twain is referrd to in the piece as an example of tooth-pulling.

Marguerite Reed I think it’s a serious mistake to equate the valid concerns of people in SF with the ignorant distress of people who wish to sanitize Mark Twain by taking out the word nigger.

Francis Murphy It was referenced in the original blog as a prime example of parents wrapping their kids in intellectual Nerf and wanting to yank them from the shelves.

I see things haven’t changed much over the years in certain aspects of the science fiction community. I could burn an afternoon on this or I could go spend my time doing something more productive.

Byron Bailey “How is being sensitive any different from being aware?”

I think you can be very aware of something but not sensitive to it. Vampires, for example, are purported to be senitive to sunlight. I tend to be merely aware of it, though, unless I’m out in it way too long. Likewise, you can be very aware of other cultures, but not very sensiitive about them. In fact, you can even use your awareness of cultural differences to demonize the other which is anything but sensitive or figure out how to use their differences to destroy them or manipulate them to your advantage as some who have advocated anthropology in the military have suggested. With that said, so far as culture sensitivity can be developed, it’s usually built upon cultural awareness coupled with a certain amount of empathy.

Barth Anderson The argument FOR “sanitizing” Mark Twain is that generations of African American kids might be able to read Huck Finn without having the mind-spinning and very hurtful jolt of hearing the word nigger over and fucking over again. I don’t pretend to know whether that’s a good idea or not. But it’s a unique and compelling question of censorship that has real world implications for the context in which kids are being taught in American society.

My question: Is there a remotely comparable question of censorship in sf, as the essay writer seems to imply?

Marguerite Reed There is a classic example of privilege right there–of my white privilege. I never got that before. You know why? I never had to. Thank you, Barth.

Barth Anderson The counter argument works for me too. A writer’s work should never be censored. Ever.

Barth Anderson ~crickets~

This Barth guy is a jackass. Because you know, when you demand something of FB and people wander off to take care of their real lives rather than answer your demand, that proves that you won… or something… hell if I know.

Fortune Buchholtz Crickets? Here’s what I’ll say. In my high school I had 2 African-American students in my English class when we read Huck Finn. The girl, LaNita, was offended by it and made an eloquent argument about the racism inherent in the “black sidekick” motif seen so often in American literature and film. The guy, Taylor, said that Twain was just echoing his times, and that we had to have that slap in the face to understand how far equality had come. But the clock on this has been turned so far back now via the Teafolk; certainly things have been said in the past 2 or 3 years that were unimaginable just a decade ago.

Banquo Gordon Just to nit pick… Han did not shoot first. To have shot first implies there was a second shot. Gredo never had a chance. There was only one shot fired.

Marguerite Reed Frankly, I’d look forward to a discussoin about just what “danger” in fiction means….

Barth Anderson They’ve buggered off. They’ve scampered.

Oh, he has no idea what he has wrought… Before this was over I’d called in Mike Williamson and Tom Kratman.

Marguerite Reed I know. But that doesn’ tmean that others can’t weigh in on that particular questoin, which I posted over at my other FB account (she said helpfully).

Banquo Gordon You have a second FB page (he said expectantly)?

Brad Torgersen Administrative note: uh oh, Wiscon has been invoked. Marguerite, you can happily self-censor yourself until the cows come home, shutting up any time someone “not in your demographic” tells you to, and you can pat yourself on the back all you want. Just please understand that Wiscon is a warped bubble at the fringes of . . . well, *everything*, and that just because Wiscon (or someone at Wiscon) says a thing, this thing need not be universally true in all ways nor in all contexts. Like I’ve said over on my wall, I think it’s time for *all* demographics to be as noisy, loud, and outspoken as they want. And if someone tells me to shut up and listen, I can usually bank on the fact that this person would go into a state of apoplexy if I were to tell them the same thing. Ergo, sauce for the goose . . .

And I finally show up. I’d been busy dealing with my EVIL MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX job.

Larry Correia Wow. Reading this thread I see a lot of bloviating academia-speak mixed in with some “look I took Logic 101″.

The line about how it is time for Brad’s demographic to shut up is rather hilarious. :)

Larry Correia You guys want examples of bias in sci-fi and the nerf wrapping of the genre? I’m a NYT bestselling, award winning novelist. Yet, anytime I have any political opinion at all that dissents from the accepted group think narrative I immediately get threats of boycott. Every. Single. Time.

Or I’m told that I’m not a “real” writer, and whatever the criteria are to be a “real” writer, apparently being conservative is mutually exclusive to it.

Marguerite Reed Well, tellign you you’re nt a real writer is wrong.

Marguerite Reed I can get crabby on your behalf with that.

Larry Correia Any political post I make (and I know Brad has seen this as well) is immediately followed by comments about how I should keep my opinion to myself, with threats about how I’m turning off potential readers… Interestingly enough, you don’t see that on the flip side.

Larry Correia Also, there are a whole lot of conservative leaning writers, however the vast majority of the ones I know keep their opinions to themselves because the publishing industry is overwhelmingly liberal, and they don’t wish to sabotage their careers.

Larry Correia Everybody in publishing knows this. It is a not very well kept dirty secret. That’s why Baen is such an oddity in that our publisher simply doesn’t care, and will publish anybody as long as we can sell books, from militant libertarians to a card carrying communist.

We’re an oddity. An anomoly. Everybody knows this.

In fact, if you are an out of the closet conservative, and you try to get published somewhere else, you very well may be rejected,not for the quality of your work, but because of your personal beliefs.

Marguerite Reed I’ve heard that.

Wait… So everybody has heard that Baen is the only sci-fi publishing house that actively does not care what its author’s personal views are… but this is all in conservative’s imagination?

Larry Correia I know of one case in particular where an author friend of mine listened to a conversation between three Manhattan large house editors talking about a particular manuscript which had been submitted to them. All three agreed that it was brilliant, and would probably sell like hot cakes. But all three rejected it because the author was an out of the closet, out spoken, politically active conservative. One of the editors even went so far to suggest that the writer should try *gasp* Baen.

Larry Correia There are many authors who have spent their careers collecting awards because they are brilliant authors, but the minute they come out of the closet and let their true feelings be known, then they no longer are “real” authors, and no more awards for them.
Love Card or hate him, (I personally don’t know the guy, and am only a fan of one of his books) he’s one of the most important sci-fi writers of our time, and just because he came out against gay marriage doesn’t automatically invalidate his writing ability… But what awards has he won since?
Oh, and Dan Simmons. Who I think is probably the most talented single author alive won every single award you can win, up until the point several years ago where he wrote an essay about how maybe, just maybe, militant Islam wants to kill you. No more awards for you.
You invoke Wiscon, so you only have to look as far as Moon. And I love when liberals eat their own. The minute you break from the accepted collective groupthink in fandom then you get the Fredo in the boat treatment. Dissent will not be tolerated.

Larry Correia So spare me the “well you white men just need to shut up now” crap, since:
1. This isn’t about race. (see all those vowels in my last name?)
2. It isn’t about sex. (ask female libertarian or conservative authors how they are treated)
It isn’t about class or patrimony or any of the other buzzwords you want to throw out there. It is about one particular strain of political thought absolutely owning the publishing industry and the circle jerk that is the literary awards system, and them systematically crushing any opposing viewpoint.

Barth Anderson Nice job writing Brad’s article for him, Larry! What you’re saying is FAR more interesting and real than whether Han Solo shot first or second or whether writers should be “sensitive” or “aware.” I said in an aside to Marguerite that Brad’s piece was ultimately about conservative writers and Card, but no one would really say it out loud. So good for you. Seriously.

See here, Brad isn’t a *real* author.

I’d love an Actual Example of what you’re talking about because I’m on the other side of the fence. I didn’t know this was a thing concervative writers were all hepped up about and I want to learn and know what you’re talking about. Name a title that got “nerf wrapped” and who did the wrapping. I don’t mean a call for boycott, I mean, sort of like the example of Star Wars of Huck Finn, an example of a writer getting pressured by an editor or reviewer to culturally sensitize their writing. Because if all you’re talking about is mean liberals readers having hissy-spats on your blogs and Facebook pages,all I can say is good for you. You have engaged the debate and that’s what it’s all about, whether you’re a righty writer or a lefty like me.

But I do care about censorship and strongarming of writers in the publishing industry. And I want to know names and what you are REALLY talking about. Message me on the side if you don’t want to go naked in public.

I’ll mention the why in thread later, but note, demand the undeliverable proof.  Also tweak the argument to your specific demands. You’ll note above I talked about two seperate issues in keeping conservative writers quiet, but he dismisses one, and picks the other which he knows I won’t reveal. Clever liberal.

Martin Grover I can personally and truthfully attest that Larry Correia holds no political opinions that even remotely clash with the larger literary groupthink. He is mild mannered and entirely sensitive, Profoundly so.

Martin is one of my left leaning fans. I’ve got no problem with him, or people like him, because he is smart, and has no problem debating his positions and respecting opinions. I only take issue with the bullies and the squashers.

Larry Correia Barth… I don’t know you and you want me to give you the names of publishers, editors, and authors who are unprofessionally biased, in the industry I work in, which I make my living at… and you want me to give you their names? In print… and just trust somebody who is bashing one of my friends on the internet not to pass that on, scouts honor… HA! :D That’s priceless.

Or even better, you want me to sell out my friends, say who has complained about their editors/agents and political nerfing, and then totally trust that you won’t rat them out? (and I know of one case where this sort of thing did get back, won’t name editor or author, but this dude got burned and I will name the house, Tor)

Since I am a professional in a field and don’t feel like screwing myself over, how about you go over to a forum like Baen’s Bar and ask the posters there for examples? Or better yet, talk to some people at Cons.

Larry Correia And Brad doesn’t need me to write anything for him. If you haven’t noticed Brad’s one of the best short fiction writers in sci-fi today. When you get nominated for the Hugo, Nebula, and Campbell award in the same year then you can talk shit. Until then, “maybe your demographic should just be quiet”.

Lori Selke Oh, but Larry, the Secret Masters of Liberal Fandom have vowed to fuck you over just for denouncing us even if you won’t name names. You should know that, since you seem to be up on all of our conspiratorial antics.

And now is where we take our jaunt into Crazy Town.

Barth Anderson Larry, as we say on the internet, pics or it didn’t happen.

See, I already explained why I can’t sell out friends and get them in trouble for complaining about the people who sign their checks. As a student of the liberal arguing method, he will now live and die on this point.

Larry Correia Lori, oh, don’t you worry about that. You must not be reading your SMoF memos because you guys already despise me. :)

When I got nominated for the Campbell award the literati had a complete come apart, up to and including “if Larry Correia wins the Campbell it will ruin writing forever” and then, interestingly enough, I started getting smeared everywhere. About what? Not my writing, but rather, my politics. (see, I owned a machinegun store before I ever became a writer so I’ve always been out of the closet). Then I had people voting against me who’d never even read a single one of my eligable works, simply because I was a right winger.

Larry Correia Go onto Audible. Go onto Amazon. I’ve got thousands and thousands of reviews. Every one of my books is in the 4.5 range out of 5. Then go look at the 1 stars. Every single one feels the need to mention my politics… Funny how that works.

Lori Selke Well then what are you worried about, Larry? You contradict yourself. It’s cute.

Lori Selke P.S. That’s SMo*L*F, if you please.

Larry Correia Sorry Barth, I know how spiteful, antagonistic, petty, and vengeful publishing is. I’m not giving you shit.

Where do I contradict myself, Lori? Please do fill me in.

Lori Selke “I can’t name names because I’ll be punished in the industry! You all already hate me so it doesn’t matter!” Very consistent, Larry. Like pudding.

Lori Selke I’m’a echo Barth. Pics or it didn’t happen.

Now they are on the same page. That’s okay.  Even with two of them I’m still in the higher weight class.  :)

Larry Correia Oh, I’m fine. I’m publsihed with Baen (which even the thread originator has admitted has the rep of not caring about its author’s politics).

However, you want me to name conservative authors, who have suffered because of their life choices, who have chosen to stay in the closet about their beliefs, and you want me to publically out them, so it will damage their careers? And if I don’t out them and screw over their careers, then it isn’t really a problem. Wow… Doesn’t that sound familiar.

Lori Selke So tell all your cronies to sign with Baen too and all will be well. Otherwise, you’re right. It does sound familiar. A lot like a certain laundry list.

Marguerite Reed Wow.

Larry Correia That’s one publishing house out of many. One. And the only reason it is well known in this respect is because it is literally the only one that DOES NOT CARE. There is literally no other place that John Ringo or Tom Kratman (regardless of how many millions of books they sell) would get picked up by. Why? Because they’ve got strong opinions that go against the accepted groupthink.

Meanwhile if you are Paolo Bagaculupi (or however you spell it) or China Mievelle, then you can say whatever political thing you want. If John Scalzi approves then there is no problem. The the minute Brad Torgerson says anything that goes against the narrative, SMOF rips him apart. I watched Brad get ripped apart as being a racist (on a topic that had nothing to do with race) simply because that’s what you call a conservative when you start losing an argument to them. (and that’s especially ironic since Brad’s been married to a black woman his entire adult life)

Marguerite Reed ~shrug~

Yes. Because nothing says that you are a profound liberal master of apologetics and debate like shrug.

Lori Selke I weep for the wounds of your brethren, Larry.

Oh, it is on now bitch.

Larry Correia This isn’t just publishing, this is the entire entertainment industry. Yesterday one of the editors of Mother Jones libeled openly conservative and outspoken Adam Baldwin (Chuck, Firefly) as being a tax evader. Only she screwed up, and it was STEPHEN Baldwin, no relation. But the really interesting part of this was how she phrased it. She didn’t call him a celebrity, she called him a pseudo-celebrity. Just like being a conservative author, if you disagree with the narrative then you aren’t a *real* anything.

On that note the line to see him at DragonCon was like a thousand people wrong, so I’m going to go out on a limb and say he still qualifies as a celebrity.

Larry Correia Lori, weep for free speech and critical thinking in America.

Larry Correia So, you champions of free speech are all about it, as long as it is the correct kind of speech.

And now I sound the Horn of Gondor!

Larry Correia I don’t know if Sarah A. Hoyt can post here, but I’ll bring in some other novelists who’ve seen the screwings over and the public lynchings.

Larry Correia Michael Z. Williamson John Ringo Tom Kratman

Lori Selke Oh honey, I weep for critical thinking every single day. Believe me.

Lori Selke And as soon as I see some from you, I will weep for it too.

Lori Selke But at least I got you to name names so that people can judge for themselves how horribly persecuted these authors are. Thank you.

Now at this point, you must understand a certain phenomena of internet arguing. I’ve got a ton of fans. They are incredibly hard core. They see this unfolding and they can read it, but they can’t comment. So there is another thread running parrallel to this one over on my page. Of course, my fans (being awesome) start googling this crazy Lori chick. She’s a “freelance” editor who charges people $1 to give them 20 word stories, and her only credits on Amazon are, and I’m not making this up Lesbian Erotica and Dirty Dyke Erotica anthologies.

Keeping in mind of course that me and Brad aren’t *real* authors.

Larry Correia Uh huh. Hit and run. Yeah, you’ve sure got a lot of expertise on the subject of the publishing industry to share.

Meanwhile, one side of the political spectrum gets squashed, the other side cheers because they are championing the *correct* type of speech. And you can predict how most literary award ballots will go entirely on the names of the contenders and their internet reps, rather than the quality of the works, and there’s no issue at all.

Larry Correia Oh, you think that’s all of them? America is split into thirds, conservative, middle, and liberal, yet the vast majority of writers, actors, and musicians who share their opinions publically just all happen to come from the same end of the spectrum… Why, that’s not suspicious at all!

And don’t worry Lori, I don’t need your tears. Because the most widely read thing you will ever have written will be when I quote you on my blog. :)

No. Seriously. I don’t think she realizes how many people read this thing. Congrats, Lori. What you wrote in this FB post has just been read by more people today than all of your Dirty Dyke Erotica anthologies combined.

That’s really got to suck.

Lori Selke Larry, I love your delusional paradise. It’s pretty. But trying to hurt my fee-fees by appealing to your published authority is pretty fucking laughable considering what I actually really do do for a living. Ta ta.

Larry Correia Oh, like this? :Dhttp://www.amazon.com/Demon-Lovers-Succubi-ebook/dp/B0087QH2MS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363121468&sr=8-1&keywords=lori+selke

Lori Selke Nope, that’s for fun, babe. Try again.

That’s just for fun… Which is why it was the first thing that showed up on Amazon. :)

Larry Correia Wow. You sure showed me! Yeah, what you do sure is impressive. You are obviously an expert on the publishing industry. http://www.amazon.com/Tough-Girls-Down-Dirty-Erotica/dp/1892723123/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1363121468&sr=8-6&keywords=lori+selke

Lori Selke Thanks for the free promotion, tho…

Larry Correia Well, Dirty Dyke Erotica is where the money is.

Lori Selke Whee! Wrong again. Also your google-fu sucks.

Larry Correia That one got 5 whole reviews.

Lori Selke And a Lambda Literary Award nomination, until they found out about my politics and blacklisted me for being too politically outspoken. That must be it.

I actually did have to look up the Lambda award because I’d never heard of it. It is a Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual literature award. She was nominated for it ten years ago and lost. And this is in no way insulting the Lambda awards or people who create gay fiction, more power to you.

But Lori is a doofus, so she’s going down. :)

Larry Correia Google fu. Nope. Just plugging your expert writer name into Amazon. Google my name and I’m the first 18 pages. :) And you’re talking crap about me?

Lori Selke Also, that was more than ten years ago. Like I said, your google fu sucks.

Larry Correia Or your writing career sucks. :)

Oh snap!

Lori Selke You’re doing a fine job talking crap about yourself.

Lori Selke P.S. not all publishing expertise is writing (ask Patrick Hayden), and not all writing is fiction. Done now,.

Larry Correia Oh, I don’t even do my own research. My fans do it for me. I bet you are cleaning up on that writing 20 word stories for a $1 gig. :)

Lori Selke P.P.S. at no point did I actually claim any expertise. You’re the one resorting to the appeal to authority. Just sayin’. I just said you can’t hurt my fee-fees. And you can’t. You can just keep posting links to my stuff. Thanks again!

Yep. She took Logic 101 in college. However there is appeal to authority and fallacious appeal to authority. If somebody actually does have specialized knowledge that others do not, then they have an advantage. Or did they change Logic 101 since then and now it is “all opinions are equal regardless of your ignorance as long as they are based on feelings.”

Larry Correia I thought you were done now? I can’t miss you if you won’t leave.

Yes. I did claim expertise, because I have expertise on the subject. I’m glad to keep posting links to your stuff, because I’m sure my fans reading this blood letting will just flock to Dirty Dyke Erotica. :p

Josh Garner I love it when people who know nothing about a subject matter tell people who have a great deal of experience in that subject matter that they’re wrong. Eventually the ignorant just end up whining and name calling – and then just disappear.

Larry does have expertise in the matter of publishing and I’m willing to take what he says at face value because I have watched what happens when Brad or Larry or any number of other authors express their conservative values – people like Lori suddenly appear and attempt to “shame” them. Free speech and the ability to tell a good story is what this argument is about. You should be able to tell a good story where the character is flawed and the world is flawed – it’s okay to gray things out a little. Everything in sci-fi doesn’t have to be black and white… The sad part is publishing companies seem to be missing out on selling to an audience because they feel the need to express their political belief through what they publish.

Brad Torgersen Well said, Josh. :)

Josh Garner Marguerite – I have come late to the party. I’m trying to figure out if you think written sci-fi is toothless or isn’t toothless. And if you believe that it is the responsibility of an author to be culturally sensitive. You also seem to equate making money with being toothless – is that right?

Mike SixEight I think Marguerite and Lori just want some publicity. The best way to get free publicity in the modern era is to pick a fight with an established (musician/porgrammer/author/artist/economist) and then others come in to watch the show and share or re-tweet the argument. That said, sound like both of them are full of the intolerance that I’ve come to expect from those that describe themselves as “Liberal”, “Intellectual” or “Leftist”.

Mike SixEight Alternately, neither wanted free publicity, but aren’t smart enough to realize when they’re punching above their weight.

Barth Anderson I’m sure Brad’s great. GReat dad and must have writing chops (haven’t read his fiction). But the reason Brad’s article is badly written is that it soaks up several computer screens of wordage without say anything except to resurrect a SIXTEEN year old argument about Star Wars. I asked for an example of what Brad described — of writers being asked to be culturally sensitive in their books — but he hasn’t responded. I asked Larry — and…sniff…he yelled at me! I mean, what the fuck? We’re all in this industry and we all want to be published and NONE of us wants to be censored. I don’t want you to be censored, Brad or Larry, because I LIKE reading shit that pisses me off. And I WANT the unmitigated joy of stomping on your arguments my own damn self, as a reader and fellow writer.

My hunch is you’re not talking about censorship or sanitizing. Not really. You’re talking about writers who were called out by their editors for racist, homophobic or simply slanderous language that got couched and retold as Mean Librul Editor was Mean To Me. Don’t go stomping around and saying I’m wrongwrongdarnitSMASHBARTHwrong. You started this, Brad. Put on your Big Writer Pants and back up what you wrote.

Restate to strawman. Ridicule. Not a real writer. Dismiss because they sound angry… Did he miss any?

Marguerite Reed Wait, are we talking about the Superman comics thing?

Josh Garner Barth — Do you just not think people are being asked to be culturally sensitive? Do you think authors should be culturally sensitive? I’m really just trying to get a read on the argument here, because as of right now all I see is people demanding proof because they seem to have gotten defensive about something…

Marguerite Reed AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh my sweet baby curlyhaired Christ in a pram–I want publicity! This is how I go about getting attention! Oh Mike SixEght I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be fair, I do not think Marguerite was looking for publicity. Like I said, she seems opinionated but okay.

Barth Anderson Jesus how much more clear can I be, Josh? Brad and Larry. Not offering an example of what they’re talking about. I want one. ONE example. That’s ALL.

Demand the unsatisfiable.

Larry Correia I’ve given several, which you’ve dismissed for whatever reason, and I also explained repeatedly why I’m not outing writers who’ve had issues with the people who sign their checks.

But that’s okay, whatever I say is anecdote, unless it is quoted in something reliable like Mother Jones or John Scalzi’s blog and then it will become evidence. :)

Marguerite Reed Josh Garner, I like your questoins. I’m afraid they might be buried here, though, Cna you repost it on my wall?

Larry Correia And Barth, you’ve never seen me yell. I’ve debated senators and argued stuff on national news programs. If you think this is yelling then you must live a very quiet life.

I don’t think I ever mentioned censorship or sanatizing, but rather wholesale squashing, not buying manuscripts they otherwise would have, and SMOF going out of their way to sabotage, bully, or threaten any authors who venture outside of the accepted group think. I hope that helps clear that up for you.

Why is it that I always get accused of being angry? First off, I’m really not. If I was angry, you’d know it as soon as your house blew up. Second, even if somebody is angry, that in no way invalidates what they are saying. But hey, in a world based on feelings, whatever.

Josh Garner Why do you need an example? You are arguing and getting defensive about an Op/Ed piece that Brad wrote where he says that the industry has some PC issues that arguably are making the industry boring… And that sci-fi, publishing industry, and entertainment in general is leans left. Do you really need an example to know this true.

Marguerite Reed He needs an example because the one given–that of Huckleberry Finn–isn’t SF.

Barth Anderson I’m not defensive in the least. I came here to hear what Brad meant.

Marguerite Reed That’s all. I don’t think he doesn’t believe Brad or Larry. I don’t think he’s challenging them. I think he just wants an example.

Larry Correia “”You’re talking about writers who were called out by their editors for racist, homophobic or simply slanderous language that got couched and retold as Mean Librul Editor was Mean To Me.” Interesting… I missed this from Barth before. I never mentioned racism or homophobia, so why would you insinuate that if there is a problem with a conservative author then it must be from racism or homophobia? Not that I’m shocked mind you, since this is what conservative authors get every time they speak in public.

Barth Anderson Larry, on the internet, no one can hear you yell.

Larry Correia Oh, believe me. You’d know. :)

Barth Anderson Because you haven’t offered an example yet. You’re just trumpting and typing and banging on your keyboard, as faras I can tell. I’m filling in the gaps where your argument fails, Larry.

Barth Anderson Don’t out anyone. Don’t name names. Just give me the details of how it went down and what the issue was regarding these writers you’re talking about.

Larry Correia No, Barth. You are not. You have declared that the one thing I specifically refuse to give you is the crux of the entire matter, and have declared that to be your win condition. I have explained specifically why I will not name individuals, because it isn’t my place to damage their careers or their relationships with their editors.

Larry Correia Simulpost.

Everitt Mickey what argument? So far all I see is commentary.

Josh Garner Barth — do you know Larry’s background. Do you know how he got published? I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. But I might be able to give you an example of an author being asked to be culturally sensitive… Frank Miller — Holy Terror and DC Comics

So you want examples, and now I can do it without providing names? (whoops, he made a mistake and allowed a tiny crack in his unachievable goals).

Larry Correia Okay, see above with the 3 editors for one. See Card, Moon, and Simmons. See any post anywhere on the internet by a conservative. See how conservative writers are ridiculed whenever possible, even in snide and underhanded way. A recent article about whether urban fantasay is liberal or not brought up me, and how surprising that I had “strong female characters and people of color in positions of importance”… because the default setting of the discussion is that people on the right are defacto racist/sexist.

Will type more, but FB loves to eat my bigger posts.

Larry Correia Author I know who writes YA, asked to make his characters non-religious, because “everybody knows religious people are stupid bigots and nobody likes them”.

Everitt Mickey my two cents . Indie Publishing is going to change a lot of that kinda thing.

Larry Correia Another author, writing an urban fantasy, told that militant Islamist bad guys not acceptable, encouraged to change them to white racist tea party members. (that one is particularly hilarious considering it was the Tea Party guys standing up for civil liberties against drone strikes last week) :D

Larry Correia A few years ago a novella nominated for a Nebula and a Hugo (because is was brilliant) was actively campaigned against by SMOFers like whatserface above becasue it featured religion in a prominent role, but it didn’t deride or insult religion, and that was simply unnacceptable in *real* sci-fi.

Kate Paulk I have heard an editor say how disappointed she was that she had to drop a friend from college because she found out that friend was conservative. Response from all in the vicinity: sympathy and how terrible it was that her former friend should turn out to be like that. I kept my mouth shut because at the time I still harbored faint hopes of being acceptable to the mainstream SF publishing industry.

Larry Correia Just for kicks, go through the books nominated for Hugos and see how many are message fic leaning left, either about global warming, big evil corporations/capitalism, racist/sexist outrageousness, or whatever the liberal cause de jour is. Then count up the ones right leaning message fic, where the antagonist is socialism or something of that nature.

Larry Correia Ask Tom Kratman about his reviews of Caliphate. :D

Larry Correia Kate Paulk ‘s story is common, and doesn’t even fall into Barth’s criteria, but every single conservative/libertarian writer out there can give you several stories like that.

Josh Garner Barth– Has Larry satisfied your need for examples?

Of course not, and everyone knows it. Because he didn’t want examples because he’s already made up his mind. Don’t worry, he’ll justify them below. Also, that’s tip of the iceberg stuff, because I don’t want to give too many specifics that could be figured out. I’ve seen what happens to good authors when somebody over them gets their righteous political indignation on.  How dare you tell on my unprofessionalism!

Cenate Pruitt Holy nuts, way to take over Marguerite’s facebook and turn it into your own little conservative pity party, Larry.

And now a subspecies of liberal internet argument shows up. The Poo Flinging Monkey. PFMs are very difficult to deal with, since they don’t actually have an argument to debate.

Cenate Pruitt But I guess that’s how conservatism works, right? If someone has a dissenting viewpoint, occupy their territory and claim it as your own, because those poor ignorant savages just don’t know what they’ve got.

Yes, because you know how those right wingers are with Occupying Stuff… Hey… Wait a minute…

Cenate Pruitt (p.s. in my fantasy liberal utopia, salty conservative sadtears are a source of limitless clean energy.)

Cenate Pruitt (where is my book deal)

Cenate Pruitt But anyway, back to you being incredibly rude, I just wanted to let you know you’re incredibly rude. Just so we’re clear, okay?

Here, let me break this down for you.  Not just this thread, but any thread where you argue with liberals.

Liberal 1: Attack, ATTACK! Attack, attack, attack! ATTACK!

Liberal 2: ATTACK! ATTACK!

Conservative: Defend.

Liberal 1: So rude!

Liberal 2: Yes, very rude.

Larry Correia I do believe she started it, thought Brad was full of it, and then asked for examples. Provided. She didn’t think there was any bias, and now several of us are demonstrating that is incorrect.

Or are you just going to do another hit and run, like whatserface? If you don’t know much about the target, ridicule and attack. Claim your moral superiority and call it a day?

As for my rudeness, oh well. I guess that is what happens after years of being called a racist, sexist, wymyn hating, child killer, corporate shill of the military industrial complex. So put your big girl panties on and deal with it. :)

Cenate Pruitt (p.s. anyone who nonironically uses the phrase “political correctness” needs to be sent to a reeducation camp.)

I’m going out on a limb and guessing he doesn’t realize the last US president to put people in camps was liberal icon, FDR, but hey, whatever.

Cenate Pruitt (p.p.s. claiming moral superiority on the internet is something most of us got over in 1997)

Cenate Pruitt (or did this turn into usenet when i wasn’t looking)

Cenate Pruitt (where’s my .sig file and email spamtrap? and cane and matlock reruns?)

Josh Garner Also love it when people get offended for other people. I’m pretty sure Marguerite can handle herself.

See what I mean. A dancing monkey, with lots of poo getting tossed. But as Howard says, Not my Circus, Not my Monkies.

Larry Correia “(p.s. in my fantasy liberal utopia, salty conservative sadtears are a source of limitless clean energy.)” you should suggest that to Paulo Bacigalupi. Bet he wins another Hugo. :D

No. Seriously. Bacigalupi is a communist who thinks mankind is a scourge on mother earth. So it is sadly ironic that his politics are far less controversial than mine in SMOFdom.  Man, I wish that this thread had happened before my Sad Puppies campaign.  

Cenate Pruitt I’m not even offended, broheim. It’s just that WEH WEH HOW DARE LIBBURULS BE INTOLERANT OF MY INTOLERANCE is like the Bat-Signal for me.

Cenate Pruitt But by all means, continue to sing me the song of the oppressed middle class white hetero male. Key of b flat.

Speaking of the bat signal…

Michael Z. Williamson Larry’s Hispanic. I’m an immigrant. But I guess if you’re looking for white people to hate you’ll always find them. Thanks for playing.

Michael Z. Williamson See, I’ve read a lot of left SF and liked it–Eric Flint is a friend of mine. I’ve written in Misty Lackey’s universe. I like Moon. I like Pohl. I like Mack Reynolds. That’s because I’m tolerant. They tell a good story, so I read them.

I read them for their story content. Obviously, everyone here is just as tolerant of right oriented fiction, because hate is not a liberal value.

Dave Van Domelen Of course, so much of my SF reading is Baen (hi, guys) or TwenCen authors I’ve been following for decades that I really don’t see the 21C pussyfooting trend that the original blogger is complaining about.

Dave Van Domelen (Left, right or center, Baen authors seem far less averse to the Asshole Protagonist idea, much less Asshole Supporting Characters.)

Cenate Pruitt Oh, excuse me – wasn’t aware being a white immigrant means you aren’t white. (and Hispanic does not preclude being white)

Anyway, if you’re up for more conservative persecution fantasies, I hear “Red Dawn” is on Starz.

Fascinating… He doesn’t know a thing about me. Yet already I’m a “white hispanic”.  Sort of like how the New York Times used that term like once or twice in history, until the George Zimmerman knee-jerk accusations of racism shooting, when that became a legitimate term for the left.

Personally, I think the whole damn thing is stupid. I’m an American. Period. Though my HR people were always happy that I was legally Latino because it got the stupid EEOC off of our backs.

Barth Anderson Wow. Actual examples. Thanks, Larry. Now we have something to actually talk about.

I’m not interested in talking about ridicule aimed at any writer for their politics by fans, reviewers, etc.

Yep, because when the left organizes to crush an artist of an opposing viewpoint’s career, that’s free speech, but the second people on the right complain about a left wing artist’s politics, then I’m certain Barth wouldn’t be screaming about McCarthyism. :)

I don’t care who they are, Orson Scott Card or you or me, writers get shit. That’s the nature of the business. You get shit from readers, reviewers, your old teachers, even other writers <g>. That’s how it goes. If you want to get bent out of shape about bad reviews because you’re conservative or liberal and not the precious snowflaake mommy said you were, go home and watch tv. Right? Agreed? This isn’t a business for the thin-skinned.

So all that’s off the table. It’s just lame whining when *I* do it and it’s lame whining if conservatives do it. In your better moments I bet you agree with me, Larry.

Earlier I was full of rage… Now I’m whining… Interesting that.

So let’s take the example of the writer being asked to change militant Islamic villains to Tea Partiers. That’s a drastically huge change to a story, and I’m guessing it wasn’t an editor asking it of their own writer, or they wouldn’t have bought the manuscript to begin with, especially if that editor was of the “culturally sensitive” type.

But whatever. I’ll take it at face value. You say the editor is sanitizing or being over sensitive and villifying conservatives if I get you. But my take is that 90% of the time, what gets called “cultural sensitivity” or “political correctness” is actually someone trying to uproot really stupid cliches. Ex: Is this editor more concerned with being nice to Muslims or challenging the writer to go deeper and come up with something less ridiculously tired and overused? I mean, come on, militant Muslims? Back to the Future had Palestinians trying to blow up Doc Brown’s DeLorean in 19fucking85. So I’m not convinced that’s about sanitizing a manuscript for cultural sensitivity so much as saving the writer from his own bad choice and bettering a cliche-ridden story.

Making the villain a Tea Party activist? Yeah that rings as villifying conservatives. But it depends what the manuscript was about. Is the hero a Eisenhower conservative who wants his party back from the extremists? If it’s replacing one easy target with another, I say the problem is an unimaginative editor, not “cultural sensitivity.”

I’m not trying to spin, honest.

BWA HA HA HA! HAH! SNOrT!

My problem with the whole argument of political correctness, whether it’s conservatives who hold it up as a straw man to defend the shitty cliches they want to hold on to or liberals who want to replace one shitty cliche with another, it’s a dead-end street. Writers need to break out of their own predilection for cliche and NEED an editor to do that.

That’s different than censoring or leaning on a writer to change the political leaning of their story.

Interesting… Notice that he demanded examples, over and over, thinking that I wouldn’t give them. Then when provided, he quicky dismissed them as “oh, that’s not what happened at all, it was this totally innocuous thing instead!” Uh huh… Even though I’m the one telling him about the situations, his interpretation is the correct one.  Man, this guy is wasted on Facebook. He really should be working for Eric Holder drafting memos on Fast & Furious.

Cenate Pruitt (also, I’m assuming you mean to imply that I hate white men. Being one myself, I find that hard to swallow.)

Michael Z. Williamson I’ve had both ends. I had a publisher tell me they didn’t want to mention me being an immigrant in my bio, in case it offended people with “nationalist sensitivities.” At the same time, I don’t think most of my readers would have cared.

And yes, I’ve also been told stories I’ve written are too uncomfortable to be published.

Oh, thanks for bringing up skin color again. What does it matter, exactly? I grew up in a different culture, with different slang, different mores and different sociology. Not a lot different–most of the language is the same, but Brits are not Canadians are not Americans are not Aussies, any more than Turks, Persians and Arabs are the same. But, hey, we look alike, so we must be, right?

You’re the one bringing it up, not us.

Bingo. Notice when race started coming into play here.  The right wingers say we get insinuations of racism slandered against us, the liberals say oh no you don’t!, and then go about bringing race and priviledge into the discussion.

Dave Van Domelen Barth: Also, how many Baen series have a villainous scummy husband and wife political team that’s thinly veiled Clintons? Or heroic scientists who are conservatives and snark about how liberal all their colleagues are? Political hackery is always more visible when it’s not aligned with your own worldview. ;)

Michael Z. Williamson http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/politics-Reparations.html I’ll just leave this here. You may wish to call the bomb squad.

Michael Z. Williamson Hmm…I haven’t read any Baen books with a thinly veiled Clinton. Nor any heroic right wing scientists. I may be reading the wrong authors. Can you tell me where E Moon or E Flint did that?

Cenate Pruitt OH BOY A WHITE MAN WITH OPINIONS ABOUT REPARATIONS that sounds absolutely scintillating. i’m sure you also have a fascinating position on abortion

Why yes, I do, as do you, as should any human being capable of critical thinking skills. Just because women are the ones that carry the fetus, doesn’t mean it isn’t an issue which has repurcusions for all of our society. But I must remember, I’m talking to a PFM.

Cenate Pruitt (the common thread here being that these both involve things that have absolutely sod all to do with you)

Fascinating… This mindset blows me away. So… Because I have a penis, I am not allowed to have an opinion on abortion, and because I’m not quite brown enough, I’m not allowed to have an opinion on racism, and though I grew up dirt poor, bettered myself, and now the democrats consider me rich, I am not allowed to comment on priviledge… However, liberals everywhere can tell me what to eat, what kind of healthcare to have, how many rounds I can have in my gun, what I can do with my land, or if I can drink a big soda.

But why respond to a PFM? If you want to have a lot of fun, go back and read his posts like he has Tourettes.

Dave Van Domelen Michael: Not so much Moon or Flint (who, as has been noted here, is one of the lefties in the Baen Baern). But Ringo goes to that well an awful lot. It’s practically his go-to protagonist, the good ol’ boy physicist. There’s a Clinton pair in the Honorverse (slimy Manticorans in the High Ridge faction, IIRC), but I think it was from one of the Worlds Of Honor books. The President who presides over the plague years in The Last Centurion is Hillary. I’m pretty sure I’ve read at least one other (a Grantville story, maybe?) but they haven’t done it since 2008 that I’ve noticed.

Marguerite Reed Although Ringo has a charming sense of humor about it….

See, I knew I liked her for a reason.

Josh Garner Cenate– We are all the hero of our own story — to quote a a writing trope. Why do you feel the need to marginalize the issues, hardships, and problems that anyone has. If Larryor any of the authors he talked about had to deal with people being douches — that sucks. I feel bad for them. People shouldn’t have to put up with crap whether its racism or cancer or not having a job or food on the table — it all sucks. Show some empathy and quite trying to metaphorically pull it out of your pants to show how much your problems are bigger than another persons.

Dave Van Domelen Yeah, I met Ringo at a ‘con a while back and discussed some of this stuff with him. He’s pretty cool about it.

Barth Anderson A writing troupe?

Michael Z. Williamson So, here’s the problem: When certain liberals have no logical argument, they resort to the race card–specifically, ridiculing the heritage of an opponent, who might happen to have white skin.

We call this “Racism.”

They then usually try to dodge return fire under the aegis of being white themselves, again, assuming that skin color matters. So, it’s okay for them to be outraged on behalf of those other demographics. They’re special.

The thing is, if the charge is accurate–some publishers and a section of the market–are prejudiced against conservatives, then the charge is accurate. Playing a race card doesn’t change that fact.

It’s an attempt to trump by someone else’s victimhood. “It doesn’t matter what happens to you, someone else had it worse.”

The problem is, one side of my ancestors raped, pillaged and stole the country from the other side. And they all happened to be white. I’ve managed to get over this.

But per my Second Law, attempting to play that card means you have no argument. You’re acknowledging you have no logical response to the charge, so you’re attempting to wave a false flag.

No.

As to some other comment, a friend of mine happens to be on Ms Clinton’s personal security detail. He’s much more conservative than anarcho-libertarian me, and says she’s very professional to work with and no trouble for him.

However, I’m glad you take the subject of political stereotypes seriously. I’m sure you’ve complained multiple times about the caricatures of Bush, Romney and Reagan.

Josh Garner Sorry Barth — I’m not the best copy editor.

Brad Torgersen Barth: to address your specific request for an example I’d have to reference an internal scuffle going on inside SFWA right now. But Scott M. Roberts also references a public example which he understands, without necessarily agreeing with. I myself would point to the savaging I saw L. Jagi Lamplighter Wright endure on her own blog a couple of years back, or the serial savagings endured by her husband John C. Wright on his blog; both of them TOR authors. And all for “sensitivity” issues revolving around gender, race, and sexuality; wherein the often-anonymous flying monkeys of the internet, acting as enforcers of propriety, chose to unleash their toddler-like fury at people who deserved none of the invective. We might also discuss Elizabeth Moon getting savaged and her character impugned? For daring to speak what most Americans simply think every day? I could go on. The list practically writes itself.

Barth Anderson You see the difference between a publisher censoring a writer (Twain) and readers being mean to a writer on a blog, right?

Why yes, we all do, and have pointed it out, but both are symptoms of the same problem. A problem which you A. Either refuse to believe in. B. Actually are in favor of, but can’t come out and say that you are happy one side of a political debate is squashed.

Barth Anderson One has a direct impact on the process of creating books and the other is business as usual.

Marguerite Reed I’m thinking it might be time to shut this down, as much as I’ve enjoyed it. (and gotten Free Publicity!)

Brad Torgersen Barth: in the ghetto of science fiction, the line between the editors, writers, and fans gets heavily blurred. Such that we often have fans, writers, and editors all yelling at each other in political furballs not unlike this one we’re observing now. To my mind it’s more or less the same issue: sensitivity from thee, not from me. People who demand “sensitivity” yet who are prepared to impugn a person’s character, call them names, harrass and belittle and villify them, threaten to damage professional relationships for the sake of political retribution, et cetera.

Cenate Pruitt Yes, tell me all about how racist I am. Please.

Cenate Pruitt OH WAIT I’M PLAYING BY YOUR LAWS NOW

Cenate Pruitt seriously – do you have any idea how awesomely pretentious you sound?

Cenate Pruitt (p.s. nice humblebrag re: I TOTALLY KNOW PEOPLE WHO KNOW HILLARY CLINTON)

Seriously. Tourettes. Read it out loud and shout ever third word. Read it and enjoy. You can thank me later. :)

Marguerite Reed I’m racist. I’ll own it.

Cenate Pruitt Although I have to admit, this conversation IS making me hate all white people.

James Cochrane Of course, Ringo’s good ‘ol boy physicist is based on a real person… Doc Travis Shane Taylor, Baen author, scientist, and star of Rocket City Rednecks… Actually, MOST of his characters are based on people he’s known in real life, and having met some of them, they can be real characters :-)

Barth Anderson Brad Torgersen A writer has to have their own predilection for cliche challenged without it being chalked up to politics. And if a writer can’t maintain their own voice and beliefs in the face of criticism, even if it’s intense and public, they better grab the remote and catch up on True Blood.

Marguerite Reed But part of ackowledging that one is racist is then acknowleding that it is incumbent upon me, myself–not my black friends or my Sioux friends or my Hispanic friends or my Asian friends–to work on that. To recognize that yes, privilege is a thing. And to check my assumptions all the damn time. Sometimes I fuck up. Sometimes I learn stuff. And sometimes I realize that it is so not about me.

Marguerite Reed Carry on.

Josh Garner Barth– I think Brad would totally agree with your last point. The point I believe Brad is making is those challenges are hurting the genre. Maybe self publishing will help change things though…

Brad Torgersen Marguerite: the advantage of being married to a non-white woman for the last 20 years is that I’ve learned that not every POC demands that you hurl yourself on the sword of your own privilege, lest you be found guilty of “ist” and “ism.” If my wife was a grudge-carrier who wanted to inflict her racial hurts on me, we’d not be together. Thankfully she doesn’t expect me to “solve” her racial hurts by trying to own the bad shit other white people have done to her in her 50 years on this earth. Nor does she expect me to own the bad shit men have done to her. Because I am not responsible for these people merely because I am white, and male. Oh, to be sure, she’s got plenty of anger about sexism and racism because it’s still present in our society. But she does not leverage these things against well-meaning men or whites, demanding that anyone claim the Original Sins of sexism and racism. Thus I reject the entire notion of default racism, sexism, and privilege, as defined in the modern post-modern context that you might find prevalent at Wiscon, or around the coffee table at the faculty lounge of your average university humanities dept.

Marguerite Reed I ask this because I am curious, per our agreement: have you been to WisCon?

Like they would let Chief Warrant Officer Brad Torgersen, Warmongering Racist Hatey-Hate-Monger through the doors of Wiscon.This is the same place the banned liberal Elizibeth Moon because she made them “feel unsafe” because she wrote an essay pointing out that maybe, just maybe, militant Islam wants to kill people.

Jamie McAfee I’ve heard more racial slurs tossed around in bars in the Midwest (IA) than I ever did in the South. I dunno how “Wisconson” is supposed to help your case.

Brad Torgersen No, I’ve not attended Wiscon. Its reputation travels to my ears via several former attendees both male and female who said that the balkanization (apartheid) of the “safe spaces” and the eviction of Elizabeth Moon soured the experience. I am sure for a specific kind of author or editor with a specific political frame of reference, Wiscon is wonderful. But from what I can gather, Wiscon is often operating at the “bleeding edge” of gender, sexual, and racial politics; where reality is not necessarily inclined to agree, nor go.

Larry Correia Barth, in the examples I have given, (where I know the specifics and you are guessing at them) no, they were political changes. When I got to NYC for BEA or on book tour, and I have dinner with or work with or hang out with people from various publishing entities and sales forces, it is an overwhelmingly liberal group. (shocking, I know, for an industry based out of Manhattan).

How about this, don’t take my word for a liberal bias in the publishing industry. Go to some major conventions and have political conversations with editors and authors. It seems like everybody posting in this thread who actually does this stuff for a living is agreeing that yes, there is a deep, and obvious bias. While those who are liberal are insisting that this is merely a figment of the conservative imagination.

As for Cenate, I’m reading a whole bunch of gibberish one liners. Please, kid, grown ups are talking about serious stuff. And the term “White Hispanic” didn’t exist until the NYT needed something to call George Zimmerman. :)

Brad Torgersen Marguerite: if I may go even further, any POC who *does* demand that you “own” racism as a default state, simply because of the color of your skin, it’s not you with the racism issue . . . it’s your well-meaning accuser. No person should be expected to “own” anything as broad as racism simply because one person or even a cluster of people insist that it be so. You are essentially being asked to prostrate yourself before someone else’s emotional baggage, which is codependent and unhealthy in my opinion. Unless you personally have deliberately and directly used racial slurs, slights, or have tried to damage someone physically or professionally because of a racial grudge, you are not responsible. I say again, you are not responsible. The “original sin” of racism, per Critical Race Theory, is a fraudulent shell game. Don’t play it. Even if the people on the other side of the table insist that you’re a bad person for not playing.

Jamie McAfee I don’t know anything about the U of W (I thought you meant the state), but if you think we are living in an age where the trend is toward radical gender, sexual, or racial politics, University or no, you are pretty myopic, dawg. (Elizabeth Moon thing is meh.)

Meh. I don’t much care about this conversation except to say that the article in the OP is really silly. Fiction is not what it’s about. It’s how its about what its about. The idea that political correctness (anybody who uses that term unironically kinda wearing a dunce cap) would prevent morally complex fiction is dumb.

It just is. If the claims in the article are true, it means that a lot of sci fi writers are kinda derpy.

Dave Van Domelen Most creative fields are slanted towards liberalism, for various reasons…some specific to the field, some more general. It’s hard to explain it without sounding like you’re putting down one side or the other, though, and it’s further complicated by the fact that we’ve got several non-orthogonal axes involved when we talk about simplifications like “left/right”. Especially since two people can call themselves conservatives and violently disagree on almost everything…the meaning of the term changed significantly in living memory. Even identifying with something more specific like “libertarianism” can be misleading (there’s a comic floating around online that catalogs dozens of varieties).

That said, utopian-style SF is very strongly correlated with most of the views typically branded liberal. Powerful but benevolent government with a socialist bent, elimination or at least ameliorization of most of the dreaded -isms, rationality triumphing over superstition, etc. Meanwhile, MilSF of the sort that Baen has long been associated with angles more towards what I think of as “military libertarianism,” where rugged individualism combined with respect for chains of command tend to triumph, and there’s at least a little contempt for utopian types and whiny civilians. ;)

Jamie McAfee Unless you mean that straight up hero fantasy sci fi is less complex. In which case. . . you are reading silly genre fiction. If it’s trying to appeal to, like, a modern diverse audience. Gah.

This crap is absurd. I quit.

No he doesn’t. :)

Larry Correia Silly genre fiction? Wow. We got us a member of the Literati Elite! (or I think that’s your point, because I really couldn’t diagram that last sentence)

Cenate Pruitt Grown ups are talking about serious stuff – like Star Wars!

This is the reason nobody under 40 reads sci fi anymore.

Everitt Mickey Damn…and here I am being sixty three and still reading Science Fiction. Guess you’re wrong huh?

Dave Van Domelen (BTW, Cenate’s the social sciences prof here, I’m a doughy ol’ boy physicist from Wisconsin.)

Larry Correia Holy shit, he’s a professor!?!

Seriously. For real. And not only that, I had to click on his FB profile, and he’s got an inspiration quote there about how college students need to be willing to riot and fight for what they believe in, and he’s chiding me for being rude. :D  No, seriously, you can’t make this up.

Jamie McAfee To be fair, you couldn’t actually diagram it as it’s a sentence fragment, although comprehension is a concern. I said “unless.”

Some genre fiction is morally complex, even unsettling. Some is “follow the hero doing stuff.” If “political correctness” has affected the latter because it means that contemporary standards of “the hero” have changed, then who gives a shit. That’s what I mean.

Jamie McAfee Everitt is not great at comprehension either, as Cenate said the opposite of how Everitt read the sentence.

I like how when a liberal says something so stupid that it is hard to follow, they insult everyone who doesn’t understand for their reading comprehension… Because you know, I’ve got 10,000 people reading this right now because I’m so very bad at stringing all them big words together!

Jamie McAfee Seriously. Who gives a shit? If your militaristic fantasy crap is less macho or racist than it used to be, then I don’t give a shit. (Not one.) Softer more liberal heroes are no more or less cliched than more macho ones. No shits to give. Morally complex, good writing that is some kind of speculative fiction or other is not impeded by “political correctness.”

Larry Correia Wow. Insulting reading comprehension now? :D You’re on a roll. And now insinuate racism in 3…2…1…

Larry Correia Drat! Just missed it! :D

Seriously. He’d been posting rapid fire on the liberal doom cycle, and I could just feel the insinuation of racism coming fast. I started typing and hit enter like one second after his post. And sure enough, we’re “less racist” than before!  HA!

So close! :D

Larry Correia As for Cenate, (seriously? he’s a professor?) Maybe nobody under 40 reads sci-fi anymore because it has become pretentious douchebaggery heavy handed message fic like SMOF demands? Sort of like Brad’s original post?

Except for us low brow pulp types obviously, because demographically, I’ve sold a butt load of books to people under 40. Go figure.

I’ve actually posted about this before on this blog. I don’t know how many hundreds of people I’ve talked to who love my books but who hate reading in general, and asked why, it is usually because they got turned off and bored by heavy handed message fic that the SMOF keep showering praise and awards on. A great big chunk of sci-fi over the last decade has turned into a circle jerk of like minded people giving each other awards and telling teach other how awesome they are, while sales shrink because the books are no longer FUN.

Everitt Mickey ah…I showed up late for the party. Apparently Jaimie is pissing in cornflakes?

Marguerite Reed Hmm. I *do* like this: “Wiscon is often operating at the “bleeding edge” of gender, sexual, and racial politics.”

Marguerite Reed As a woman, I’m frequently there anyway.

I’m shocked.

Cenate Pruitt But by all means, continue your entitled-yet-simultaneously-put-upon schtick.

(And I didn’t invent the concept of “white Hispanic” – it’s been a US Census category for a good thirty years now..)

Uh, actually no… On the US census it is “non-hispanic whites”.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/why-did-new-york-times-call-george-zimmerman-white-hispanic/2012/03/28/gIQAW6fngS_blog.html  Or just more proof that liberals really only care about race when they are using it to push their narrative, and the second you are no longer of use they discard you.

Everitt Mickey wish I could stay and play but I got work to do. I might note that of all the publishers the one that is LEAST PC is doing fairly well. Whom that might be I’ll leave as a problem for the student.

And then holy shit, here comes Tom Kratman. (an author and man who I’ve got a lot of personal respect for)  I was sparring. Tom dropped artillery.

Tom Kratman The Left’s 20 Rules of Racism:

1. If you believe that general intelligence exists, is heritable and at all testable for, you’re a racist.

2. If you point out that liberal philosophies and programs intended to have a good impact have had a disproportionately bad impact on the ethnicities targeted by liberals, you’re a racist.

3. If you notice that other cultures have some problems, you’re a racist.

4. If you notice your own culture has had some successes, you’re a racist.

5. If you try to identify subcultural problems, you’re a racist. If the problems existed or got worse under liberalism, see item 2, above.

6. If you’re mainstream American culture, and don’t hate that culture, you’re a racist.

7. If you’re capable of noting unpleasant facts about subcultures and discussing them without your brain fogging, you’re a racist.

8. If you won’t kowtow and grovel as soon as someone accuses you of racism for one of the reasons above or below, you’re a hopeless racist.

9. If you do not believe that mankind is a tabula rasa for liberals to make whatever they think would be good to make of man, this week, you’re a racist.

10. If you don’t take personal responsibility for all the evils of slavery, you’re a racist. This is true even if you only arrived from Poland last week.

11. If you’re white, you’re a racist.

12. If you’re white and just arrived from Poland last week and don’t accept that you’re a racist, you’re a racist.

13. If you try to interject logical thought into a discussion of culture, you’re a racist.

14. If you refuse to admit culture is a racial matter, and a liberal wants to conflate the two, you’re a racist.

15. If you believe that race and culture are indistinguishable and a liberal decides that you shouldn’t conflate the two, you’re a racist.

16. If you believe that black or Hispanic girls who are paid by liberal inspired programs from the age of 13 to have babies will have babies, you’re a racist.

17. If you believe that _any_ girls of whatever color who are paid to have babies will then have babies but then, insensitively, observe that a smaller percentage of white girls do, certainly because they haven’t been targeted for as much “help” from liberals, you’re a racist.

18. If it doesn’t bother you that the truth offends liberals, you’re a racist.

19. If your name is Tom Kratman and you write and in your writing your heroes and heroines tend to be from minorities while your villains are white liberals, you’re still a racist.

20. If you read The Bell Curve, you’re a racist. On the other hand, if you didn’t read it but wrote a scathing review on Amazon anyway you might not be a racist provided you take personal responsibility for 300 years of slavery even if you just arrived from Poland last week.

Brad Torgersen Cenate: if this is the attitude and the language you bring into the classroom with you . . . well, nobody makes you take a huggability test when you join the academic ranks.

Tom Kratman The Right’s Twenty Rules of Racism:

1. Anyone responsible for three hundred years of slavery would have to be a lot older than you and me.

2. There has to be some genetics in “racism’s” DNA, some DNA in its gene pool, or it just isn’t racism.

3. Racism could be eliminated in the United States if we could just eliminate the white liberals who so plainly depend on it so much and do so much to keep it going.

4. Reality isn’t racist: The reality is that there are pond-scummy gallows bait in every group. Some of those will be more of a problem to their own group than to you (see Rule 14, below). Some will be more of a problem to you precisely because you’re not a member of their group. It is wise, not racist, to avoid the latter. In Boston, this may be referred to as the “Evelyn Wagler-George Pratt Rule,” and that’s not code. Odd exception to half of Rule 4: Jesse Jackson would much rather be followed by a white on the streets of DC, at night, than a black.

5. There have been two instances in recent history where the concept of “honorary white” held sway. One was in apartheid South Africa where, for example, Japanese were considered “honorary white.” The other was when, in relation to the Trayvon Martin shooting, the American mainstream media made Hispanic George Zimmerman an “honorary white.” This is not entirely coincidence since (see Rule 18) the very liberal American media is as racist in their way as ever the Afrikaner Broederbond was in its.

6. Nobody really thinks whites are as evil as portrayed by white liberals and black demagogues. If they really thought so, they’d be too afraid to ever leave the house, since a) there are a lot more whites, b) those whites are much better armed, c) they’re more likely to be veterans of the Army’s and Marine Corps’ ground gaining combat arms, and d) they have an historically demonstrated cultural aptitude for mass, organized violence.

7. People who insist you’re speaking in code insist on it because they believe it’s true. They believe it’s true because they really do speak in code and can’t imagine anyone who does not speak in code. It’s not racist to think those people are idiots, nor to note that they’re mostly white. (Exception to rule: When conservatives talk about guns and zombies? Especially in terms of using the former to kill the latter? Yeah; “zombie” is code for “liberals of any color.” See Rule 6, above.)

8. It’s not racist to note that white liberalism managed to do in about thirty years something that three hundred years of slavery could not, seriously damage the black family, generally though not universally, and ruin it completely over wide swaths.

9. Speaking of slavery, the bulk of slave raiding and trading in Africa was black, usually Islamic black (see Rule 16, below), on black. The Arabic word for black and slave is the same, “Abd.” And the first registered slave owner in Virginia was black. Pointing this out to liberals, white and black, is always fun.

10. It’s not racist to wish that our first black president had been Thomas Sowell.

11. The “Some of my best friends” defense against a charge of racism is no defense…unless it happens to be true. Sometimes it’s best expressed to a white liberal as, “You don’t have so much as a day in uniform, do you, dipshit?”

12. The system of education that white liberals have inflicted on inner city blacks is a crime against humanity. No amount of money that they toss at it helps to overcome the elimination of discipline liberalism has caused. It’s neither racist to note this…nor wrong.

13. The various college and university minority “studies” programs, because they give a useless pseudo-education, and at very high cost in both money and time, are racist in their effects.

14. Most black crime is black on black crime. It is racist in its effects to deprive the black community of the social good that comes from executing black criminals that prey on other blacks.

15. It takes a white liberal idiot (Lord, forgive us our redundancies) not to understand the difference between casual sex with a member of another race and marrying and investing one’s entire reproductive effort in a member of another race. See, e.g., http://www.tomkratman.com/yoli.html. Dipshits.

16. Islam is not a race. Detesting Islam is not racist. There is nothing in Islam which genetically compels either slightly tanned Palestinians or totally white English reverts to pray toward Mecca five times daily, to self-detonate in crowded squares and movie theaters, to find offense in just about everything, nor even to clitorectomize their women. Flash alert: Lysenko was wrong. Dipshits.

17. When a liberal accuses you of racism, rejoice; it means the dipshit knows he or she is losing.

18. The worst racists are liberals, mostly white ones, who assume that blacks and hispanics are so inferior that only affirmative action in perpetuity would give them a remotely fair chance. (That this also keeps a lot of liberal white social workers and bureaucrats employed is, of course, merely incidental. Ahem. Dipshits.)

19. There was a conservative argument for a kind of affirmative action. Unfortunately, all the money’s already been spent on employing white liberal social workers and bureaucrats, and we’re broke now, so that ship has sailed. Again, blame dipshit white liberals.

20. Screaming “Racism! Raaaacissssm!” on the part of a white liberal, when the matter in question has no DNA in its gene pool, no genetics in its DNA (see Rule 2, above), is the surest proof that said white liberal is genetically defective. And a dipshit. And it’s not racist to point this out.

Marguerite Reed Oh my god.

Indeed. But almost as good a comment as Shrug.

Cenate Pruitt This pretty much is at a point that reminds me of the post-election lament from the right about the “coalition” of voters who reelected Obama – young people, women, gays and lesbians, racial and ethnic minorities, the poor… At that point it ceases to be a coalition and is actually, you know, the majority of the population.

But keep on keepin on, fellers.

Cenate Pruitt … Holy Christ.

I’m out. That’s how you want to be, sci-fi writer guys, I got absolutely nothing on that. Wow.

PFM Out! 

Jamie McAfee The point is not that there is anything wrong with pulp fiction. (I’m more of a horror film person than a sci-fi novel person, myself, but to each his own.) The point is that of pulp fiction is escapist fare that adapts to changing social norms. It’s generally didactic and not very interesting whenever there is a “moral,” and its rarely morally complex or interesting. If it has become more “politically correct,” who cares? It used to be one set of not very interesting norms, and now its another.

“Insinuate” racism? I didn’t insinuate shit. I straightforwardly said that there is racism in some pulp sci-fi. It’s something that other sci-fi has often commented upon, since, like, the 50s.

The insecurity is strong with this one.

Yes.  I’m so very insecure that I go out of my way to pick fights and have debates about things I believe in strongly with complete strangers in front of thousands of witness.

But hey, insecure is a step up from “raging” or “whining” :D

Brad Torgersen LTC Kratman in the center square: because fuck you, that’s why! :D

Tom Kratman And I’m from Boston, too, if you’ve seen that one.

Brad Torgersen (chuckle)

Jamie McAfee “This pretty much is at a point that reminds me of the post-election lament from the right about the “coalition” of voters who reelected Obama – young people, women, gays and lesbians, racial and ethnic minorities, the poor… At that point it ceases to be a coalition and is actually, you know, the majority of the population.”

That’s kinda the thing. IF you are attempting “pulp fiction for a general audience” you are going to be imagining this. Also, you know, women (who overlap those other groups). So the generic “hero standards” and “morality buttons” have changed. This seems like nothing to really worry over. It’s kinda interesting though. Lamenting the inability of serious, morally complex wiring because generic pulp writing must change with the times is silly.

And that’s what happens when you look at something simple, like telling an entertaining story, and filter it through the lens of PC correctness and Liberal cause de’jour message fictioning. Oh, the demographics have changed to this group of put upon victims! Hurry and write more stories about dying polar bears and evil corporations so we can shower you with rewards!

Meanwhile, guys like me just tell entertaining stories, and sell tons of books. Go figure.

Larry Correia It wasn’t just that you insinuated racism, Jamie, it was that I was able to predict your post within one second of you insinuating it! :D

Larry Correia Aw man, Cenate’s out! Where will we go now for our random bits of crazed non sequiter poo flinging?

I still can’t believe he’s supposed to be an educator. That’s just sad and pathetic.

Jamie McAfee Since the post about the topic we are talking about, I’m proud of your reading comprehension, except that you don’t know what “insinuate” means.

Heh… Aw man, a liberal said I read good and stuff! 

Tom Kratman Education, Larry, over wide swaths, has ceased to be about teaching people to think, and more about brainwashing.

Tom Kratman Oh, and hello, Marguerite, you incredible bundle of left wing cuteness. ;)

Brad Torgersen Correct thinking has replaced critical thinking. Another reason my wife and I privately school.

Larry Correia Yes, Jamie. I did very poorly in English. I got an accounting degree, and still managed to become a bestselling novelist… Man, that’s got to suck for you guys. :)

Tom, flagging you in this thread was like calling in a carpet bombing. :) On a related note, if you didn’t read through the hundreds of posts of BS, I was trying to get authors to comment on the liberal bias in teh publishing industry.

Tom Kratman Mark Steyn said it spendidly, as he usually does: “I hate to bring up other “mid-century notions” but intellectual diversity on the left is increasingly indistinguishable from Tupperware night with the Stepford Wives. “

Tom Kratman Problem is, Larry, I detest them as much as they detest me. The only part of the industry I know is Baen and Baen will publish any political viewpoint.

Tom Kratman I will note that no one has ever called for China Mieville to be put to death. Me, on the other hand…

Brad Torgersen LTC Kratman: the human daisy cutter of the SF literature community.

Larry Correia 2012 was my record year for death threats. Mostly because of my big gun control article. Getting death threats from the “anti-violence” people is pretty hilarious. :)

Brad Torgersen Larry: what the eff, you got DEATH THREATS for that article?!?

Larry Correia Dude, I got a ton. It got read a million times in a month. And I posted it in the latter half of December and it still broke prior year records.

But, as Barth pointed out above, systematic slandering and intimidation projects against outspoken right wingers totally doesn’t count.

Tom Kratman I like to post this one whenever the subject of the liblepers’ control of the culture comes up, even impliedly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHVo0hJhnK4 Their day is coming. “Ah, ca ira…aristocrats to the lampposts!”

Brad Torgersen I find it more than a little ironic that anyone who professes to adhere to a paradigm of “anti violence” would issue a death threat over an opinion piece. Wow. Just, wow. Well, as has been said on this thread before: sensitivity from thee, but not from me. I guess that’s the operative principle at work.

You get used to it. :)

Banquo Gordon @ Tom Kratman: You forgot/missed a few rules. If you are a person of color, it is not possible for you to be racist. Contrarily, The biggest racists are the non-whites who’s personal wealth and power are based in the continuation of the idea that racism exists. I leave it to the reader to decipher which rule belongs in which category.

Larry Correia The death threats are usually more funny than anything. (I hate guns! I’m going to come murder you guy with all the guns!) The ones that really annoy me are the morons who threaten boycots. (like they are readers anyway) Now obviously, for me, that doe…See More

Some of these got cut off, because this was right before the thread got deleted.  But you guys were here for that. I usually just delete the death threats (I try to share the hate mail with you guys though).

Of course, when I disagree, I’m ranting, full of rage, whining, or blah blah blah. The people calling for Tom Kratman to be murdered are just exercising their free speech rights.

Tom Kratman In re Caliphate, or A Desert Called Peace, which is also on my giveaway list, the hilarious thing is, Larry, that the idjit leftists don’t get the jokes, that America is an evil fascist genocidal close cognate to Nazi Germany in the former, while in th…See More

Barth Anderson No, it doesn’t count as censorship. If you can’t tell the difference between bullying and censorship, you’re an idiot, Larry.

If you’re so dead set against intimidation on political grounds, then stop doing it to Marguerite. This is called bullying, right here.It’s not a discussion or even an argument. Hope you’re teaching your kids to stand up to shitheads like you. You’re an AWESOME example.

Larry Correia Well, Barth. I believe I’ve mentioned examples of both official industry censorship, and organized bullying against authors, including slandering them, accusing them of racism, spreading rumors about them, and trying to damage their careers and sales. …See More

Interesting… How many times did we clarify the difference between the two? So even though I know the difference, I’m an idiot, because… well… I disagreed with a liberal.

Also, at this point Marguerite posted and said that she wasn’t being bullied… Of course, she quickly deleted it a moment later, but I copied, pasted, and quoted her below. I should have realized, disagreeing with a liberal on any subject is obviously bullying. Standing up for yourself is bullying.

Attack. Defend. How rude!

Larry Correia “Huh, am I being bullied?” Why yes, Marguerite. They’re trying to play the victim card on you, that way they can be all righteous and the big mean conservatives are bullies who can safely be ignored. :)

Never forget, the greatest, most sacred title you can ever hold on the left is victim.

Tom Kratman And we’re racists, too, Larry. Don’t forget that we’re raciiisssttttsss!!! RAACCCIIISSSTTTSSS!!!

Larry Correia I know. Mike pointed out that I’m considered a latino, but the barely literate college professor then said I could be a “white hispanic”. :)

And that quote I have above from Marguerite was here a minute ago, and now isn’t showing up. So maybe she has decided to go with playing the victim card. Darn mean right wing authors, coming into a thread where they were getting insulted and disagreeing with the group think!

Marguerite Reed Ok, we’re done

And thus the thread was deleted.

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed this little look at arguing with liberals on the internet. For fun, just watch for the patterns in your own arguments. I really should come up with a Bingo card for this.

175 Responses

  1. Larry,

    I don’t always agree with everything you say, but the world would be a lesser place if you didn’t have a platform to say it. The whole thing with OSC makes me uncomfortable because I vehemently disagree with what he says, but I am very wary of this push to keep him from writing stories, which he does well and for some reason, I have been told that this makes me insensitive and I’m not exactly sure why. This reminds me of the flak SM Stirling got a few years ago for making some anti-Islamic joke on a webforum and I was told I shouldn’t read him, just because I’m Turkish and half my family are Muslim.

  2. Never a dull moment in the CorreiaWebs :)

  3. Woah.

    My head hurts…and I only SKIMMED it after the first third.

    You’re a better man than me for fighting with them that long.

    The one recurring theme that I found darkly hilarious is the leftist refusal to acknowledge or admit how thoroughly they dominate the arena. EVERY SINGLE DATA POINT shows that SF publishing and fandom (outside of Baen) is overwhelming left-wing, and not only do they not admit it, but they still flatter themselves that the reason they’re not MORE successful is because of the institutional anti-gay (or whatever) bias of society (“I woulda won the lambda award…but I was *** TOO *** edgy and left wing”). Yeah. sure you were.

    Anyway, keep fighting the good fight.

  4. Make tic-tac-toe

  5. I started reading this yesterday at the line of “Dirty Dike Fiction.” By the time the popcorn was done and the beer opened, it had reached monstrous size. And it was painful to read. Good on Ken for having the thread saved so that we may bask in its sheer badness.

  6. I’m the Francis Murphy guy in the transcript and I’ve been to too many of these over the past five years. I’m fairly certain that after two story sales in ’07 and ’08 that most of my writing career came to a screaming halt because I expressed the wrong views. I still do consulting work for a novelist but that is neither here nor there.

    The main reason I’m commenting is that I’ve seen a number of these firefights flare up over the years on the net in American Science Fiction. The main difference in this fight is that for the first time to my knowledge in science fiction, the Dogpile went the other way and overwhelmed the liberals on the thread.

    Which I think is a sign that folks are tired of the shit and thank God for that.

    The other reason I’m commenting is that the act of deleting a thread is known among these folks as the sin of “Silencing.” Suppressing the views of the minority, etc. More than a few like Elizabeth Moon have deleted threads on blogs or elsewhere and as a means of continuing the fight, they posted the captured comments as we see here.

    To which I say, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

    Brad and Marguerite both are friends of mine and it pains me to see this sort of thing when folks could be writing stories but in any case, that is how I came into it.

    And now, I’m going to go see about trying to get some life back into my writing career.

    Thanks to everyone who went and participated. It was a real pleasure watching things turn out differently this time.

    Respects,
    S. F. Murphy
    On the Outer Marches

  7. “No. Seriously. I don’t think she realizes how many people read this thing. Congrats, Lori. What you wrote in this FB post has just been read by more people today than all of your Dirty Dyke Erotica anthologies combined.

    That’s really got to suck”

    Jeebus, Larry! LOL I JUST managed to spew my drink back into my cup as opposed to all over my keyboard and monitor upon reading this. And now…I go jump back into the article to finish reading.

  8. So, to summarize:

    The white liberal academic mentioned race first.

    When I pointed out he did so, and was making assumptions about people without checking his facts, my argument was invalid because I’m “White.”

    Because I’m “white” and Larry is a “White Hispanic,” our comments on race are invalid, and he won’t even read them. Of course, his comments on race are valid, because he’s liberal. I don’t get it either, but that’s the rule.

    Also, I obviously must be anti-abortion. He doesn’t need to read my comments on this. I’m “conservative” therefore I must oppose abortion. (HINT: I don’t.) This assumption, based on me being “white” and supporting a particular argument about the literary industry isn’t racist, nor bigoted in any other way.

    We’re all Raaaaaacists!

    This is why it’s increasingly a waste of time to argue with “liberals.” (As opposed to actual liberals, who are really nice people.)

  9. Reblogged this on electricscribbles and commented:
    Interesting Facebook exchange I was lucky enough to witness in which the liberal SF publishing industry is given a thorough calling out (and some Liberal posters given a heavy handed spanking) by some of the best authors in SF today…

  10. I was so lucky to actually read this as it unfolded…I’m glad you were able to save it for posterity.

  11. The best thing of Facebook is watching Larry. All work in my entire business, all one of me, grinds instantly to a halt as soon as I see these go down. It’s outstanding. Larry, you my friend may be responsible for the entire lag of the mortgage industry because of these, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

  12. Wow. I love the carpet bombing. I need to write down those lists from Kratman…

  13. Widest possible dissemination authorized and encouraged, MM.

    • I think you said exactly the same thing when I asked for permission to post it to my blog some time back. Which of course…I happily did. Seeing as how I’ve upset a couple people tonight on FB..I think I’ll post them on my FB page…and listen for the screams while my cheeseburger cooks to perfection….

  14. Larry I should point out that Cenate isn’t a professor. He’s a senior Lecturer. 3 years after getting a PhD. In the current Humanities market that means the odds he’ll be an actual professor, Tenure track, research etc. are VERY slim.
    I’m speaking from experience since I am a Spanish professor who is actually a professor. Calling him a professor is like saying the Sargent is actually a Major. Not the same class or responsibilities at all.

  15. Just FYI, Cenate is not a prof. Here’s his linkedin profile.
    http://www.linkedin.com/in/cenatepruitt
    Cenate Pruitt
    Senior Lecturer of Sociology at Oglethorpe University

    “Tenure? What tenure?” should be foremost in your thoughts.

    Hell, just read the guy’s posted resume.

  16. This article is why I love Baen authors like Larry Correia, Michael Z. Williamson, Tom Kratman and John Ringo. I’d suggest that Lori Selke, Barth Anderson, Cenate Pruitt and Jamie McAfee join Joe Buckley on the “frequently fictionally killed” list, but Joe Buckley at least serves a useful purpose in life.

    • Joe Buckley is on the “interesting death” list, I think these deserve a new list. I’m thinking humiliating liberal deaths. eg. preaching gun control to street gangs.

      • I am reminded of the reason why there was a particular bird in a MM book…and yes, I was there on the bar when she originally showed up.

      • better yet: preaching abstinence and nonviolence….

        …. to feral Posleen.

    • It is an insult to group Joe “Lefty” Buckley in with those idiots, Joe is just a little unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time, a lot.

  17. Larry,
    I want you to know that not all professors are liberal douche bags. I’m a conservative douche myself–and I’ve read three of your books.
    Also, I went to school with people who were insanely liberal and ONLY associated with other insanely liberal people. I think they don’t see liberal bias/bullying because from their perspective, liberalism is the ONLY sane worldview. A conservative worldview like yours or Brad’s is akin to someone’s belief in Bigfoot or UFOs. Sure, they’ve heard of it–but are they actually supposed to take it seriously?
    –K.B.

  18. Being home sick today I actually had the opportunity to read this in one sitting. Bravo!, all it lacked was Drake and Ringo piling on Yes Lori Selke needs to start appearing on the frequently killed list! But instead of dieing semi gloriously, she should be some ignominious twit (with an a) and die in a humorous and very silly fashion, like say blowing off the safety brief on the respirators, then suffocating due to operator error when the “unthinkable” happens. However I make one suggestion…Not a bingo game but rather a drinking game, ala the drinking game where every time Obama says Change, you take a drink.

  19. Holy god that was long.

    And dear sweet and fluffy lord, Tom Kratman is even more incendiary than I am!

    • And *that* is why we love Tom Kratman.

      I, for one, can’t wait for _Molon Labe_ and _The Rod and The Axe_. I also wish we’d see a follow up to _Caliphate_.

      • I’ve been grinding my teeth waiting for Molon Late for what feels like a hundred million years. Soon. Soon.

  20. @sfmurphy1971:

    > the act of deleting a thread is known among these folks as the sin of “Silencing.”

    No, censorship USED to be bad, but once liberals started owning the media (and small corners of the blogosphere, etc.), the rules changed. Now it’s “curating” and “maintaining a salon” and “maintaining a community”. Check out the thoughtcrime enforcers at Boing Boing or Making Light or Scalzi’s Whatever: anyone who says something that makes the left look bad is censored via “disemvoweling” or outright deletion.

    They’re even proud of it, and laugh about how they make the rightists and libertarians “look stupid”.

    These people are WAYYYYY too eager to get their hands on the cudgel and the lash, and it shows in every small thing they do.

    • One of the latest arguments I’ve seen is that free speech is “repressive” because it lets Bad Thoughts get disseminated.

      • WTF? Some people’s elevators just don’t go all the way to the top floor. matter for fact…the person that came up with that one Rob…their elevator probably never left the basement.

      • Silly. They should just go straight to calling it “thoughcrime” and save the mental contortioning.

  21. Larry if only I had you, Mike, and the others all in the same bar at the same time. I’d be getting calls from the credit card company for all the drinks on my tab.

  22. What shocks me most is that somehow the people who are okay with one side being silenced seem to not consider that said silencing might be used on them some time down the road. And more likely than not the silencing they were behind in the past will be used to validate it in the future. Popular support is a pendulum.

    Another great conceit of people like Barth and Cenate is that because people who do not share their views tolerate those views within entertainment that somehow everyone agrees with them.

    Let me give you an example of both of my above points. I would describe myself as a conservative with liberal leanings. I love sci-fi and fantasy. Right now I think the best series in traditional fantasy is Geroge R. R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire. I disagree with Mr. Martin on almost every political and social issue. I thank God that I live in a country where he and I can think differently. Because of that he can freely spout his socialistic views and I can freely ignore them. But go to his blog and try to post a disseminating view (or a request that someone light a fire under his fat ass to finish the series) and your post gets deleted. It is worthwhile to point out that Mr. Martin is an opponent of (his definition of) censorship.

  23. Larry,

    I always find your comments enlightening and entertaining to say the least. I may not always agree with you 100 pecent but I would not hesitate to say that I find both logic and passion behind everything while at the same time you take the time to listen to other’s viewpoints and try to answer them before you get bashed on. The main points I see out of that whole conversation are as follows, 1) the country we live in is highly polarized in viewpoints and beliefs and we can not find a way to sit down and talk about it without it escalating into a fight. 2) Emotional responses override logical solutions each time and generally lead to more trouble down the road. 3) Liberals have no idea how to defend or support the viewpoint that the constitution is living document that provides daily the ability for them to spout off on any subject, make nasty vicious accusations, demand bans on products, inform people how to live etc etc. They never answer how what they do or want allows for anyone else’s opinion or viewpoint to be listened too, heard, and acted upon.
    I applaud you Larry, and all the other authors for standing up and trying to make people who delude themselves daily that there is another side to everything and there is no right or wrong answer, just an answer that works for most people, its called accomadation, which is earned, not given or entitled because of past actions or deeds.
    Bravo gentlemen, you have a avid fan for the rest of your writing careers.

  24. Huh. I never thought about it before, Larry, but your discussion of how SF has been changing could well explain why I let a subscription to Analog lapse back in the mid-Naughties. A subscription that my dad started in the ’40s which I continued for some 20 years after he died in ’85, I might add.

    I let it lapse because I was finding that I just wasn’t enjoying what Analog was publishing any more.

  25. As an aside, for some reason this post made look up operation arc light. 27 B-52s at 30 tons each? That sounds about right.

  26. Larry, that was simply awesome. Had a spit-take (turned away from the computer quick) when you sounded the Horn of Gondor.

    And yes, Kratman brought the artillery, but then who was the spotter?

    Is John Scalzi a liberal author you can have a well reaoned conversation with? I read both your sites, and Scalzi has had some interesting bits on bad publishing contracts that would be interesting to hear your opinion, especially since you are not likely to be snowed in by numbers or interesting accounting pracices.

    • > Is John Scalzi a liberal author you can have a well reaoned conversation with?

      Given that Scalzi is PROUD of the fact that he modified comments from conservatives and libertarians to make them sound stupid, I can’t imagine that one can converse with him.

    • I’ve always been the sort of person who ignores the political views of authors, musicians, actors, or other artists if they are good at their primary job – entertaining me. It’s a transaction. I give you little green pieces of paper and you make with the funny, or awesome, or scary. That’s the deal.

      That said, I will never purchase another John Scalzi book. I thought he was a reasonable liberal, but his posts leading up to the election (Especially the “Letter to Certain Conservative Politicians” written from the perspective of a happy, GOP-lovin’ rapist) were doctrinaire, talking-points, liberalism. And the comments allowed against conservatives were worse. Conservatives or libertarians who argued against the posts were shot down by other commenters and/or Scalzi. His blog, his rules? I’m fine with that. But don’t expect me to be unaffected by it.

      “Old Man’s War” is a fantastic read. Scalzi is a good writer. But in economic times like these, I’m not going to give my cash to someone who clearly hates me and what I believe.

      • Oh, the George Martin blog was just as bad when he did his “Ohio is a bunch of RAAAACISTS” and Conservatives are EEVIL for having *everyone* provide picture IDs to vote in a state where thousands of non-residents had been allowed to vote the election before thanks to ACORN skullduggery.

        Yes, George, soo evil. As if pissing on your fans for daring to suggest you should mayhaps cut some of the innane, uninteresting side projects and get back to writing that series you can’t be bothered to produce more than once every five-freaking-years.

        I posted immediately after the series was dead to me. It’s not like the last two books would’ve been tolerable from anyone who hadn’t written the 1st 3 anyway.

      • Scalzi’s “white privilege” diatribe ended all interest I had in his work. Never spending another penny on him.

      • I generally don’t care what an authors political, religious or sociological stance are. Until I’ve caught them insulting me via something I identify with. Or actively/passively encourage mob mentality.

        These past two years I have seen many more authors on FB, and wow the stuff they post. I’m fine with their ignorant posts, we are all ignorant at one time or another. They could simply not know much about a topic, but feel compelled to express their opinions.

        I’ve see NYT best sellers post “So I read this book and I don’t think it fits into the genre. I want to know what you think though.”. What happens next are flame wars of epic proportion on the reviews of the book the authors doesn’t agree with. I’ve looked into some of these and found the author is ideologically aligned opposite to the NYT best selling author. Now the author didn’t “ask” their fans to flame the other book, but this is the interweb. You have to know that is going to happen, especially since I’ve seen some authors do that multiple times. I’ve even seen them ask “what do you think about this review” and watch a negative review get so many “not helpful” clicks it almost vanishes.

        When an author conducts themselves in that way, or directly insults things outside of their writing they lose my business. I don’t tell them though as I’m not trying to force them to change. They are free to their own opinions even if I don’t agree to them.

      • I can read Scalzi’s site and not agree with him on all points. But I am kind of used to letting the liberal fluffery flow around me – I’m an openly republican voter in the Deep Blue of Massachusetts, and I am a professor in a small college.

        The recent concerns with some Random House e-book imprints offering what appeared to be predatory contracts to potential offers, and the reaction and changes that have occured look to be steps in a positive direction.

        Admittedly, I leave most of the comment threads on his site well enough alone.

      • I liked Redshirts, until it got into the silly literary game crap at the end. (First coda in first person, Second in Second, Third in Third.) Then the white guilt crap came. He won’t be seeing another dime. (Neither will TOR, except for a couple writers. Could someone can please talk Brandon Sanderson into changing publishers?)

      • Gah! Why did you have to highlight that post! (“Letter to Certain Conservative Politicians”) Somehow I missed that last year. Now I don’t think I’ll be able to read another book by him.

  27. Great read. I was just recently called a sexist by referencing a video and making comments that gun control should be a woman’s issue. Specifically was called sexist and obnoxious. I then stated facts and figures showing that women are overwhelmingly the victims of assault, that men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of assault, and that men are stronger then women, so that if anyone should want firearms for protection it should be women. I feel strongly here because I go on business trips and leave my wife home, so yeah, I want her to have an AR, rabid dobermans, a mine field, and mortars if possible. No response yet.

    • well, you may actually BE obnoxious, I can’t tell based on this small sample. [;^{)>

      • Sir, I will have you know that I am the soul of propriety when conducting political discourse.

    • Pretty sure Dobermans are racist.

    • And how is that sexist? I’m a chick, I know when I’m outgunned, so to speak…and I pack my own arsenal. Where’s the waaaaaahmbulance for the butthurt? They really need to get over themselves…a 100lb. Woman in most cases IS prime for picking by a 200lb. plus male. Facts are facts.

      • I think it was sexist because by wanting women in my life, that I love, to be able to protect themselves however they choose, I demeaned them as modern women by implying they can’t take care of themselves??? That’s all I can figure. I used to think sexism was like smacking a woman on the butt, or making lewd comments, or not hiring a qualified woman and hiring a less qualified man instead, but I am learning all kinds of new things lately. Change!

  28. All previous smart-ass accusations of racism aside, it’s worth noting that a lot of the early gun control in this country was implemented by southern democrat county bosses to keep blacks from owning guns. At least the left has stayed true to its roots with gun control.

  29. DAMN YOU LARRY! I can’t get any writing done myself when I read threads like this.

    And now I’ve realized my only hope in publication, EVER is either indie or through Baen. It makes me wonder if my Steampunk novel got rejected because the female character REFUSED to have an abortion in the opening. Hmm…

    Oh well.

  30. I have been in plenty of arguments(I’d say debate, but I was the only one remaining civil) where the other side has resorted to logical fallacies. Heck I was on a gun debate on Anne Rice’s page and my opponent said that since I was only a self published e-book author my views on anything let alone a topic brought up by a real author weren’t valid. I remained civil the entire time and just began pointing out their fallacies. Other subscribers started insulting him in my stead.

    So far I haven’t seen Mrs. Rice ban him for insulting others…

    I will say I’ve seen the same uncivil arguments from some of the ultra right, but I’ve encountered far more from the left. I’ve even received a death threat from a liberal because I dared say I’ve received physical threats from liberals and obviously I was lying… Cognitive dissonance much?

    As for the publishing industry, that’s one of the reasons why I’m trying to start my own e-book publishing house and slowly move to traditional publishing. Too many authors are silenced, and the mentality of “if you were a real author you wouldn’t be an e-book author” is spreading around the industry and among readers.

    I want to change the face of publishing so people can get published regardless of religious, political, or any other affiliation. Good books should be read not hidden to protect the mind set of the few people in charge.

  31. Oh Sweet Bog! Corriea, Williamson, and Kratman!?! I _almost_ feel sorry for those poor sods.

    “act of deleting a thread is known among these folks as the sin of “Silencing.”

    When debating gun control advocates, it’s known as “Reasoned Discourse”, i.e. when you’re losing the discussion never happened.

    • Well, cleaning up that thread only required the services of three out of the four horsemen of the Baenpocalypse…but it’s a pity they couldn’t have gotten Ringo involved as well. Margureite and Lori both really need a good spanking, methinks.
      ;)

      All joking aside, I’m actually not surprised Cenate turned out to be a professor. There’s no way foolishness of that caliber could survive outside the sheltered confines of academia. Or somebody’s mother’s basement.

  32. Well my favorite bit was

    Barth Anderson: A writing troupe?

    Keep it up Larry, I’d vote for you as president any day.

  33. That was superlative sir. An absolutely grand way to spend an evening I enjoyed reading the figurative disembowelment of left wing loons.

  34. Larry … engaging in a battle of wits with the unarmed … SHAME on you.

    And using FACTS on LIBERALS … unconscionable …. just unconscionable …

    • It’s not Larry’s fault if they bring a dull spoon to a firefight. No quarter given! Raise the Red flag(or black whichever one pirates used to say “you’re all gonna die”).

      • Did someone say bring a spoon to the fight?

      • David Burkhead, that spoon trailer seems exactly like the posters on that thread. Just hitting you over and over with an annoying spoon. They don’t really do damage, but they are annoying as hell and will follow you to the ends of the earth. Can’t escape, can’t stop it, can’t kill it.

      • Actually, you don’t have to kill spoon man.

        Just chain him to an anchor, and throw him into the sea.

        He can swing his spoon there. Repeat as needed.

  35. Wow, that was quite a read.

    For whatever it’s worth, I’m (supposedly) left-libertarian. If the PFMs in that … session are liberals, I’d hate like hell to be mistaken for one. Larry’s books rule; I don’t give half a shit what his politics are. Hell, he gets all the gun stuff right. You all know how rare /that/ is.

    • Good point. As much as I love politics, I like my fiction to be a little less preachy and a little more focused on other things. For the most part, I am not overly interested in the politics of an author in making up a list of people to read.

      • This.

        I don’t care if an author has an ‘in-character’ (for lack of a better term) political or religious statement. But to cite Tolkien, I have detested allegory in all its forms since I was old enough to recognize it. I don’t need (Terry Goodkind) messaging passed off as literature, and honestly, I don’t think it’s effective writing.

        I can read Mieville and appreciate the weird and fantastic creatures he dreams up. I just have to skim his barely in-character political rants. Heck, my Urban Fantasy characters are politically aware. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be. But I don’t need PAGES of it until the story is author tract masquerading as sci-fi. And yes, I read Paolo B’s “award nominated” sci-fi.

        It was exactly that sort of tripe. I was turned off in a hundred pages. Didn’t help that there wasn’t a ‘single’ sympathetic character in the lot.

  36. Sad comment: I could tell who was on which side just by looking at the first names — On The Right: “Larry”; “Mike”; “Tom”; “John”. On The Left: “Barth” (wasn’t that the cook from _You Can’t Do That On Television_?); “Cenate”; “Jamie”; “Marguerite”. “Banquo” almost threw me; but then I realized it was a well-read person’s alias.

    But then, I always derive a great deal of humor from watching Hoi Polloi talk about matters which are being decided at “levels where I didn’t even know there *were* Levels” (to quote Tom Petty). In the end: It’s all digital masturbation — the only time “one man makes a difference” in society is when he’s sitting in a window with a ‘scoped rifle. *That* man has answered Boss Tweed loud and clear: “What are you going to *do* about it?”

    • Yeah, Barth was the cook on _You Can’t do That on Television_. I’m glad to meet someone else who remembers that show.

  37. Man, after that midterm I needed a laugh, but who in the name of all that is holy called in the Arc Light strike?

    • As I was reading through this I was at first angered by teh stoopid but the I hit this: “It was like somebody just turned on the Correia Signal.” OOOH went the really funloving reptillian portion of my brain. Then i hit this wonderful nugget: “And now a subspecies of liberal internet argument shows up. The Poo Flinging Monkey. PFMs are very difficult to deal with, since they don’t actually have an argument to debate. ” It was at PFM that I lost it. all I could think about was Keith Laumer and his Retief stories where the crazy leftist group with the grudge/agenda always had such wonderful acronymistic nicknames.. My concentration at that point was shot since since I mentally changed all of the names involved to deeply unflattering ones, what do you think Larry did Crodfoller (Cenate) give you a 24-x (Sneering Condescension)? I believe that I will forevermore refer to all of my liberal friends/relatives/others as members of the CDT. It is either that or just go on a verbal rampage because there is too much stupid out there for my system to handle otherwise.

  38. Larry:

    As usual you have the right of it.

  39. Now see there is a difference between cultural sensitivity and dumbing down of America. Then again I was raised in a home that was mult-racial and I guess I learned there is more to a person than the color of their skin that makes them good or bad. That being said as a woman and conservative. Funny thing I don’t fit the “norm of conservatism”. I am fiscal conservative, heathen (IE Follow the norse gods and goddesses) OK with gays, and very strong belief in the constitution. I have lost friends over my views and not going to apologize for it either. I happen to think Larry is a GREAT writer as are the others he mentions. Sort of a shame that writers, movie stars and others have to hide what and who they are. I wish more would become outspoken might help make a difference. As to Mother Jones not sure how they get called media in the first place 99.9% of what they write is pure tripe.

    • Calling what mother jones writes/prints ‘tripe’ is giving it faaaaarrr too much credit milady.

      • NO no no “Tripe” is one of the key ingredients in Menudo (the soup not the group)., so in the sense of what tripe really IS (the digestive tube in which food or “information” is processed and broken down into resultant by-product “absolute crap”) actually fits Mother Jones et al quite well

      • Helosar- Hmmm how about calling them “the putrid end result of a dalliance between a donkey and a mentally challenged hooker?” Too far? Hmmm…the unclean spawn that resulted from the coupling of a camel and syphilitic whore?” No? The bastard result of a tryst between Wile E Coyote and Kitana from Mortal Kombat? Surprised that they didn’t get eaten after they were born since Kitana beheaded and ate Wiley’s heart and liver after mating….

    • Cheryl, a conservative heathen? Where have you been all my life? ;-)

  40. Speaking of political & religious bias in publishing, you might enjoy this latest reference to a new Sarah Palin book:
    http://publishingperspectives.com/2013/03/sarah-palins-new-book-yet-another-reason-to-dread-xmas/

  41. Damn! This is what I get for being too busy with stuff. By the time I wandered over, the thread was done.
    So… immigrant from Portugal, with the accent and all — for the first ten years kept quiet about my politics, but wasn’t vocal ENOUGH on the politically correct themes, so my stuff got buried. Also was vocally anti-feminazi (and used “Marxist twaddle” in a panel once) so I get given few panels at Milehi, and my readings get shunted to be against the masquerade or whathaveyou.
    HOWEVER — got told my career would be fast tracked if I wrote something like “I, Rigoberta Menchu” (Falls on the floor choking at the idea.)
    And when I came out of the political closet, starting about 3 years ago, started getting tons of letters saying “I’ll never read you again” (Guys, if I had had that many fans, I’d have been on the bestseller lists many times over, but my books rarely made it to the SHELF let alone lists.)
    The best part of coming out fully — as in working against Obama in November? — the not-Baen publishers FINALLY released my copyrights, including an email on how they didn’t want to be associated with me. (Smile beatifically.)

    • Goody! bout time those useless twats over at a company who’s imprints I refuse to pay for anymore, released your copyrights to you.

      • You know what that means? There will be a sixth musketeer. They are, mind you, holding on to Dyce, because it’s a pen name… but they don’t have a leg to stand on… and one of my fans is an IP lawyer. (Smiles even more beatifically.) Politically this fan is sort of like MadMike, and he has your sweet disposition and slowness to anger, Wolfie…

      • That Bad?? [Wink]

      • At Sarah. Slow to Anger? LOLOLOL I’ll bet certain people at the publishing company whose name will never be uttered by me again, let alone typed, didn’t think so. I love you for saying so of course though. :)

  42. “Larry Correia: Any political post I make (and I know Brad has seen this as well) is immediately followed by comments about how I should keep my opinion to myself, with threats about how I’m turning off potential readers… Interestingly enough, you don’t see that on the flip side.”

    The most memorable argument I ever got into on the net, was on Baen’s Bar, and it was the very flip side you mention (the exception that proves the rule). About ten or eleven years ago, on the old OLD Bar, where I occasionally posted as “the Badger” I made the mistake of telling the Red Bear that he should stop insulting conservatives in his post, since a lot of them were his readers. About the same time, I posted a flippant reply in another thread to the effect that the America-haters weren’t leaving America fast enough.

    Flint went ballistic. I was “a jackbooted thug” who wanted to send everyone to concentration camps or even gas chambers, etc. on and on for paragraphs. I tried to respond, but a) a number of his fans piled on telling me how rude I was to censure him in his own forums, and b) I just couldn’t calm down enough to respond rationally. I sat the fight out for three days (it went on far longer than that), and returned to find that Col. K and J.R. had entered the fray, and challenged Flint to explain exactly what his political manifesto was. This was when he revealed himself to be “a card-carrying communist” as you say. Boy, howdy.

    I have visited the Bar on occasion since, but I no longer consider it a home I’m welcome in; on that day Flint proved that the Rules of the Bar didn’t apply to him. Jiltanith picked up the snippets I’d been hanging out there for anyway…

  43. Larry. . . time to be careful. The Federal Fun Control Administration is going to be after you for having ENTIRELY too much fun in this thread. . . .

    And I sympathize with Sarah, I’d have jumped in, but have been busy job-hunting. . .

  44. Dang….Many thinks Larry for fighting the good fight!

  45. Bwahahahaha! Wow, just wow. I don’t have anything meaningful to add, just wanted to comment so that any of those idiots that stumbles over here has a general idea of exactly how many people are reading your stuff

  46. Ont thing I see missing in y’alls replies is that this is more than just a trivial, snobbery incited, jealous, elitist, etc.conversation. This has real implications on your chosen method of supporting your family. They can sniff and say “It’s just SciFi” or “It’s just books” but it isn’t. Is it your CAREER. The way you feed your (every growing!) FAMILY!

    So many liberals just can’t seem to comprehend that their actions have real repercussions that affect real peoples lives in significant ways.

    I’m pretty sure that’s racist too.

  47. I wonder if this is going to be published as a novella with the title “how to talk to dummies”. I started reading this and couldn’t stop. Larry, your books are great, but this is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming to your blog! I also got a whole new list of authors to look into who won’t make me feel bad for being a conservative white male. Thanks!

  48. I read through that entire damn thing, and not a single werewolf was decapitated! Still entertaining though.

  49. Thanks for this post Larry. I broke out the doritos and beer as it was getting good.

  50. I made the mistake of printing that out to read on vacation. Okay read, Larry, damn it, that would’ve made me sign up for voting! And now I have to search other authors too? (okay, I read Caliphate and watch on the rhine. Both of them I liked but not up to LC levels)

  51. Since Larry, Tom, et. al. have already taken care of the important points, I’d just like to point out that Doc Brown got his plutonium from Libyan terrorists, not Palestinian ones. Possibly a difference that makes no difference (as both would likely be Islamic), but it bothered me when Barth brought it up.

    • That bothered me, too. Barth can’t distinguish between Libyan and Palestinian terrorists? Raaaaacist!

  52. That…was…

    AWESOME! :-D

  53. Everything Simmons wrote since Rise of Endymion was utter crap.

    • You know, you sound a _lot_ like one of those poor, blighted souls that wishes desperately that they could write, and deeply resents the success of those who can. How terribly sad for you. How pathetic. You have my profound sympathy.

      • I can write. At least, I can write better than you can, or better than anything Simmons wrote in the last decade.

      • Which is, we are all sure, precisely why you hide behind a pseudonym; your brilliance at the craft is so well known we’d all be struck blind by the mere sight of your name.

        Puhleeze! You don’t even rise to the level of “moron with pretensions.” No, I pegged you perfectly. Talentless wannabe, possibly with some worthless scribblings that he can’t get anyone but his best friends to look at.

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
        Ha.

      • Prove it. Take off your mask, I’m sure we’ll all bask in the glory that is your brilliant writing.

      • Oh, that’s asking to much, Draven. Besides, his mom and dad, with whom we can be pretty sure he still lives and from whom he surely still mooches, would object to his giving out his name. Why, they might take away his gameboy. Or make him make his bed. Or something.

      • Yep Tom, I just love people who are professional writers- people being *paid to write*- being told they can’t write.

        My other question for him is, does he assume that multiple cultures will never go into space? Especially once sending colonial vessels is as easy as it is in the aforementioned series, do you assume space colonies are going to be all Star Trek and one big happy family and there being no dissenters left on the world, much less ones purposefully shipped off to the colony just to get them off Earth?

      • Agreed. Clamps is full of crap. Because:
        A. He is a professionally published writer, then like all real writers he’d be happy to show off his work.
        B. He is a self published author, then he’d be super happy to show off his work for whatever publicity he could get.
        I’ve been in both of those situations, and he’s not acting like a writer, which leaves C.
        C. Clamps is full of shit, hasn’t ever actually written anything, or he’s an “aspiring” writer with deulusions of adequacy.

        And people can make fun of my writing all they want, but if they say that Dan Simmons hasn’t written anything good in the last decade they missed Ilium, Olympos, and the Terror, or they’ve got their head shoved fairly far up their rectum.

        The fact that Clamps is unfamiliar with using a sci-fi setting to tell a story about a contemporary issue shows that he’s pretty ignorant, because that is sci-fi bread and butter right there. That is original Star Trek sort of stuff.

        So going out on a limb, I’m guessing Clamps most widely read thing he’s ever created is a college term paper.

      • Maybe college. High school seems as likely.

      • Bele: It is obvious to the most simpleminded that Lokai is of an inferior breed.

        Mr. Spock: The obvious visual evidence, Commissioner, is that he is of the same breed as yourself.

        Bele: Are you blind, Commander Spock? Well, look at me. Look at me!

        Captain James T. Kirk: You are black on one side and white on the other.

        Bele: I am black on the right side!

      • Hell that’s Jules Vern stuff. That’s Johnathan Swift stuff. That predates the style

      • Says the fellow who wrote A Desert Called Peace. Here’s the premise: it’s on a planet exactly like Earth, let’s call it Space Earth, in which Space Muslims settled a space desert with space oil and some space terrorists attack the Space World Trade Center in Space America and Space America calls for a Space War on Terror and a space freelance mercenary sets up a private space army and runs a space counterinsurgency. In space.

      • Wow, you’re even stupider than I thought. Yes, it is all those things. Can you think of a better way – well, assuming you could think, of course, something for which the evidence on the ground is quite thin – to explore the current war. The phrase your feeble brain is missing is “roman a clef,” novel with a key. You have just criticized the novel for doing splendidly _exactly_ what it was supposed to do. What a dolt.

        By the way, can we have your name and a sample of your writing?

      • Yes, D, that was one of my side intentions, too; to demolish the easy assumption of monocultural planets.

      • Yep, the only way monocultural planets would happen is if habitable planets are cheap enough and plentiful enough that they can send each of them to their own little planet. Even then, still not likely.

      • I actually had a lot of different themes and memes going on in ADCP. Funny that people who aren’t bright enough to see them – Yes, Clampy, I’m looking at you – just assume they can’t be there. I also had a few jokes going on. For example, who are the real, old fashioned, Tory type conservatives? Who, conversely, is the revolutionary in the spirit of Lenin, Mao, and Ho Chi Minh? Odd, how often people get that inverted.

  54. Hey Larry, I just had a very Skippys List rule 87 violating idea.

    If John Scalzi made a TON of money publishing his hate mail. I think you could probably fund the purchase of your own T72 tank with a nice published book of Hate Mail/Death threats with funny MST3k esqe commentary. (Collaboration with LTC Kratman perhaps? Get Eric Flint to write the forward for giggles) You could probably put a new edition every few years.

    Hate mail Death threats and assorted Word Salad to the Right wing side of the web. I think it would be funny. (and cheap time wise I mean you presumeably read your hate mail anyway and the best stuff seems to get to your blog and or your Face book so you wind up commenting on it. Might as well put it to work for you.

  55. Nicely done, Larry. You remind me once again why FB is a massive time waster because it leads to arguments with people wholly uninterested in debating, merely in suppressing dissonant viewpoints. Their demand that you rat out fellow conservatives is rank McCarthyism, especially as — since they did not accept your attestation — there is no reason they would accept your names. Stating that bullying is ongoing need not result in claiming victim status.

    • It’s not just facebook. Civil Discourse is dying a painful death everywhere. It’s just easier to see on facebook. I’ve seen Authors who claim their pages is a place where everyone can come to discuss openly and freely without being judged or attacked. Yet somehow one side is given carte blanche to insult the other.

      I can’t count how many times I’ve been insulted, and even threatened online while attempting a civil debate. I’ve been threatened with physical violence and accusations that I was lying when I said “I have been threatened by one side more than another”. I don’t even know how they could threaten me and call me a liar for saying I was threatened in one breath. The mind that could do that scares me.

      I have been thanked and complemented by people online for remaining civil in the face of uncivil “debate”.

  56. A friend of mine I made through Ricochet.com directed me to this blog. I am ashamed to say I hadn’t read any of your work. Mea culpa. I shall now be actively seeking out your books. Thank you for the entertainment. It was delightful!!

  57. While I have read all of your books, Larry, I haven’t read those of some of the other authors in this thread.

    Based on what I’ve read here, I just went and bought several by Tom Kratman and Michael Z Williamson. Like you, they’re articulate and entertaining. Both sound like great guys to have a beer with.

    • So which ones did you pick up?

      • I’ve just finished A Desert Called Peace, Live Free or Die, and Freehold.

        I’m now reading State of Disobedience and have the LFOD and Freehold sequels stacked up. Ringo reminds me of Niven. Williamson feels like Heinlein.

        Kratman is solid, entertaining military scifi with clear arguments regarding current politics. He writes “badass” characters in a believable manner. Kratman makes other military writers look like pussies.

      • Not all of them.

    • Heh, me too – just started looking them up on goodreads.

  58. This almost makes me wish I had a facebook age. Almost.

  59. Larry I hope you see this. It would make a great week even better. One of my favorite authors, Vox Day, quoted you. He is a libertarian grouch and author like yourself. I suspect you would love his blog. Check it out: voxday.blogspot.com

  60. Thank you, all of you, for giving me still another reason N O T participating in any social network, including but not limited to facebook.

    I am not going to check the request for notification of follow-up comments, because the way this is set up, does not limit further comments to only reply to one’s own comment, but the whole bloody thread following one’s comment. No, thank you.

  61. Ok, having gotten all the way to the end, all I can say is that calling in Tom Kratman was roughly equivalent to calling in the combined US/Soviet nuclear arsenals on an anthill in your backyard.

  62. Thank you. I’m a non-author but an avid sci-fi reader, and you’ve given me lots of avenues to go check out some new authors that the PC publishing industry has evidently been hiding from me.

    Oh, and I hope this thread spreads far and wide. Because as a libertarian-minded person who was a sorta-lefty for years, one of the major things that drove me away from my erstwhile tribe was THIS.

    It finally dawned on me that they didn’t want to win the argument. They wanted to prevent any argument from being had. They wanted to win not by refuting, but by systemically de-legitimizing other viewpoints as being held only by bad not-persons, who should not be heard by decent society at all.

    When that truth sunk in, I recoiled in horror. You held a nice mirror up, here. Thank you.

    • It’s the death of civil discourse. I’ve seen it happen all too often. I had one liberal accuse me of over a dozen instances of logical fallacies, and said I flat out lied. I collected the data proving I didn’t lie. Then refuted all of his accusations of fallacies. Some of his accusations where in and of themselves fallacies on his part.

      His response was I didn’t know how to debate so he was done with me. Technically speaking, in a debate if you accuse another of committing fallacies and they haven’t or you can’t back up your claim then you have lost. The person accused is given the chance to prove they haven’t committed fallacies.

      He wouldn’t even acknowledge I proved I wasn’t lying. One of my friends even defends his actions because he is “young”. Being young is an excuse for ignorance, we are all ignorant until we learn on our own or corrected. Being willfully ignorant crosses into the realm of stupidity and there is no excuse for that. To many people are willfully ignorant IE stupid these days.

  63. [...] And it was on. Good rollicking fighting ensued. Noses bloodied, chairs smashed, tables toppled–Torgerson knows how to take care of himself, mind, but Larry just wants to get the job done, with as much fun as can be wrung out of such limp-brained prey. [...]

  64. [...] From Correia’s commentary on the fight below: [...]

  65. “That’s why Baen is such an oddity in that our publisher simply doesn’t care, and will publish anybody as long as we can sell books, from militant libertarians to a card carrying communist.”

    This is simply and blatantly false.

    http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/08/vox-day-and-me-part-91.html

    >You can’t use him. He’s a pacifist!

    But he’s an award-winning pacifist with a great story idea.

    >No!

    (the other parts of that series are also worth the read)

    The most impressive thing to me about the right’s attacks on the left are how the right engages in exactly the same failures and dishonesty as the left and is utterly blind to it.

    • Just read it… So… Even though Baen is currently publishing people from all across the political spectrum, and Jim Baen passed away back in 2006, and it has been run for the last 7 years by Toni Weiskopf, the fact that Jim didn’t want to use a pacifist to write a FREAKING BOLO!! NOVEL is proof that it is “simply and blatantly false” that Toni cares more about sales than an author’s politics… Hoookay then. Because for those of you not familiar, a BOLO is a giant, sentient TANK that freaking kills everything and blows everything up and shoots everything with gigantic super big guns which shoot into SPACE, and the series was run by Keith Laumer, who got to say who wrote in this world, and who got to specify what kind of stories he wanted to tell.

      And wait a second… Jim died in ’06, but this blog story has to be even older because Keith Laumer died in 1993! That was TWENTY years ago. And since then this publishing house has run books by Flint, Lackey, Lee & Miller, Compton, and a bunch of others from the left side of the political spectrum.

      “The most impressive thing to me about the right’s attacks on the left are how the right engages in exactly the same failures and dishonesty as the left and is utterly blind to it.” And this is your supreme example? If I applied to write a sexy, romantic, chick literature sparkly vampire love story, and the editor shot me down, it probably wouldn’t be because I’m a conservative, but rather because the editor’s not an imbecile.

    • You seem to have assimilated the genre to the degree that you have a time travel problem or, rather, an unstuck in time problem, coupled with a…well…frankly a logic problem. In the first place, Jim’s dead. He died about 6.5 years ago. Whatever he may have mandated when alive doesn’t address what Baen – the publishing house – does now. in the second place, though, you seem to be mistaking a fairly defensible notion – that a pacfist would probably not be able to write a book that fit the Boloverse – for the much larger, and indefensible, proposition that Baen would not publish a pacifist. It might be illustrative that I, a fairly well known highly conservative anti-pacifist, also wrote a Bolo story that Baen would not touch. (It’s on my site, totally unedited, as a freebie. I maintain, still, that it’s a helluvan idea which has one big problem…it ruins the boloverse.) Does this then stand for the proposition that baen would not publish conservative anti-pacifists? Your little story would seem to suggest so.

      The most impressive thing to me about the left’s attacks on the right is that almost every leftist in the world is an idiot.

  66. Okay, reader not writer, but Tom Kratman has to be worth reading. What book do I start with?

    Usually in a post like this I have many comments of opportunities lost, etc. Leave it to professional writers to leave me so little. My only complaint: Larry used the word elite, rather than elitist. It is a small thing, but I have had so much fun fitting big bad liberals in little tiny trash can openings with it. The not-prof was not elite, he was elitist.

  67. Thank you CMB, I will start with A Desert called Peace. It was probably listed first for a reason.

    I read this entire thread and commentary and one other thing bothered me. Did anyone else notice that every time a lib used the phrase ‘politically correct’ they had an add on in parentheses saying that ‘anyone who used the phrase unironically’ was lacking in some way? Like they were trying to say PC is passe and none of the cool kids do it anymore even as it has made a roaring comeback since Obama took over.

    This is another huge roadblock to both debate and just plain common sense for libs. If they deny something is happening, then that something is not happening. No proof is possible as Larry demonstrated above. It doesn’t matter, for instance, that we live in a constitutional monarchy and most any gun control laws or executive orders that come from DC will be unconstitutional unless they first amend or repeal the 2nd amendment. It doesn’t matter that all this broo-ha-ha over gun control is most likely a lot of meaningless posturing because Dems are just plain attacking on the wrong front for true change(and the pols know it). Anyone with common sense knows that either the constitution will be voided in some way, which even libs (much less their representatives)will rarely admit they want, or all this posturing will come to a very quiet end after the courts clean up any Congressional messes.

    My favorite is when libs quote the 2nd amendment that guns are only for ‘a well formed militia’. The current official definition of militia in the US is everyone of draftable age and any vet under the age of 65. When I point out that they support the plan of every healthy (draftable) man and woman between the ages of 17 and 45 and every vet have a gun in the US, they never seem to comment on the thread again.

    • In my experience folk on the left have not really used the term “politically correct” to describe their own actions. The term really dates back to the old Soviet Empire. with things like politically correct science (Lysenkoism as one example) and so forth. The term was generally used by the “right” (quotes because a single dimension right-left is not really adequate to describe the various political positions) to describe [i]behaviors[/i] of the left. The Left often tries to disown the term claiming they don’t do that when, yeah, they kinda do.

      Regarding the militia, the term “well-regulated”, at the time the Constitution was written did not mean “extensively controlled by the government.” It It meant “working properly.” http://constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm Now, in the Federalist Papers (46 to be exact), Madison describes one of the purposes for the Militia, specifically as a check against excessive exercise of federal power and its use to override the authority of the States (http://coldservings.livejournal.com/50537.html). To be “well-regulated” (properly functioning) therefore, a militia must be able to serve in that capacity. If it cannot serve in that capacity, then it is not, by definition “well regulated” despite however much it is under government control (or rather because of how much it is under government control.

      The National Guard, which the anti-gun Freedom Deniers usually cite as “a well regulated militia” is 1) Paid for by the Federal Government 2) armed by the Federal Government 3) Subject to Federal call of which the State has no power to override 4) Of limited size compared to the regular army and 5) often less well armed and equipped than the regular army. Under those circumstances it _cannot_ act as a check against the growth of Federal power beyond its Constitutional limits. Thus, the National Guard cannot be the well-regulated militia mentioned in the 2nd Amendment as a reason for RKBA.

      Perhaps that’s why the 2nd doesn’t go on and say “the right of the Militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” but “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” As Madison made clear in the Federalist Paper referenced above, The “well regulated (and thus able to serve as a check against Federal power) militia” is the whole of the people capable of bearing arms. And it is the people who retain RKBA, not some small, government anointed, subset.

      Of course, this is usually when the anti-gun Freedom Deniers try to claim that “you wingnuts with your hunting rifles or even your AR15′s can’t possibly fight the US military. The military has tanks and nukes.” To which the obvious reply is “so lightly armed irregulars in the US cannot possible succeed against the US military just like lightly armed irregulars in Iraq, Afghanistan, or, for that matter, Vietnam, can’t succeed against the US military there. Correct?”

      The cognitive dissonance usually makes their head explode.

    • I posted A Desert Called Peace because it’s my favourite series of Tom’s.

      I also didn’t post the books that Tom’s done in John Ringo’s Legacy of the Aldenata universe (the Tuloriad, Yellow Eyes, Watch on the Rhine).

      Here’s Tom’s full list of published books at Baen: http://www.baenebooks.com/s-66-tom-kratman.aspx . I’ve just realised that A Desert Called Peace and Caliphate are available for free at that URL (first editions).

  68. A Desert Called Peace refers to a line in Tacitus’ Agricola. “Solitudinem faciunt, pacem appelant.” “They make a desert and call it peace.”

  69. Sickening, hilarious, and very familiar. This is why we don’t have a balanced budget after ten years. God help us. P.S. Sorry to hear about the death threats. That is horrible. You and your family are in my prayers.

  70. [...] Brad Torgersen and Larry Correia discuss what they see as bias against political conservatives in the Science Fiction genre in Political Fun with Facebook. [...]

  71. I’m 28. I’m young, dumb, and full of idiotic things just waiting for a perfect chance to fall flailing out of my mouth. I don’t argue politics in any form because I quite simply do not have the patience, spelling ability, or time, to finish typing or speaking my statements before I descend into being a gibbering red rage monster.

    So thank you, for sounding the horn of gondor, and rallying the troops. It does my state of mind a great deal of good to watch conservatives score a knockout in whatever the medium.

    Again, thank you.

  72. Marguerite Reed “But Brad, did you ever think thatit is maybe time for your demographic to be silent for a little while?”

    Who is that little Stalinist?

    “…at my first WisCon…”

    Oh, that kind of Stalinist.

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