Sad Puppies Update: Honesty from the Other Side

If you want to get a great glimpse into the minds of the people who hate the Sad Puppies campaign, read these comments.

Once you get done, you’ll see the exact sort of people who inspired me to start Sad Puppies.

It is a fantastic glimpse into their mindset. It isn’t about the quality of the work, it is about protecting the clique. The nominations won’t even be announced until the 4th, and they’re already flipping out. There are so many lies, distortions, misconceptions, and half truths in that comment thread it would take a novel worth of writing to fisk it.

When you see nonsense posts with all the vowels removed, that’s what SJW bloggers do to people who disagree with them.

My favorite parts are where they whine about needing to change the rules to protect their clique or how the Hugo admin should be pressured to throw out questionable (i.e. things that disagree with them) votes. You know, the exact sort of behavior I predicted years ago when I started this campaign. Well, shaming, slander, and shunning only motivated my people more last time, so they’ve got to try something.

But this is the best comment of all because if finally displays the ugly truth. If you don’t know, Teresa Nielsen Hayden was an editor at Tor and a Queen Bee among SJWs. Her husband Patrick Nielsen Hayden is also a Tor editor, and has garnered a ton of nominations.

#499 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2015, 03:43 PM:
Why are people talking about what would happen if everyone who reads SF voted in the Hugos? IMO, it’s not a relevant question. The Hugos don’t belong to the set of all people who read the genre; they belong to the worldcon, and the people who attend and/or support it. The set of all people who read SF can start their own award.

Wow… Wrap your brain around that.

Funny. I seem to recall one of the things that inspired me to start the Sad Puppies campaign went something like this:

Correia: The Hugos are just a popularity contest for one tiny, insular, politically biased group of people.
SMOFs: NO! The Hugos are a prestigious award that represents the best of all fandom.
Correia: Nope. Here, let me prove it.

Fast forward a few years of us getting increasing numbers of outsiders involved and authors who don’t sit at the cool kid’s table nominated, and it is sure nice to see Teresa Nielsen Hayden finally agreeing with me in public.

But it is too late now, Teresa. The Sad Puppies voters got involved with WorldCon, paid their dues, and bought memberships so they could participate. The problem is that they’re the *wrong* kind of fans. You guys should have just been honest to begin with and none of this would have ever happened.

One last thing, I find it funny that they are casting all of these aspersions against the Hugo admins because they are holding firm and obeying the rules of their convention. I’ve seen where they are trying to pin this on me and saying that I’m trying to ruin the dignity of the Hugos. On the contrary, there had been allegations against that admins were suppressing votes for a long time, and I put those to bed. One of the goals of Sad Puppies 1 and 2 was to audit the system (I was an auditor before I became a writer). I kept track of Sad Puppies nominees and voters across the categories, and then compared the final numbers when they were released. After two years of doing that I was able to say that I saw zero indication of dishonesty or fraud, and that the Hugo admins had been perfectly honest in their dealings.

But somehow that has turned into me attacking their integrity.  Nope. I did the opposite. I demonstrated that they were obeying all their rules. Now, I’m the bad guy because the SJWs are screaming at the admin to break their rules because people they don’t like obeyed the rules.

Man, it must be really hard for SJWs to say anything without lying. 🙂

Sad Puppies 3 standard bearer Brad Torgersen addressed all of their recent nonsense in more depth. He explains it rather well here:

What the SJWs don’t realize is that the more they expose their bias and hate, the more regular fans become motivated to get involved. Kate “The Impaler” Paulk will be taking over for Brad and taking the helm for Sad Puppies 4.

Sad Puppies Update: The Melt Down Continues
Projects and Rumors of Projects

213 thoughts on “Sad Puppies Update: Honesty from the Other Side”

  1. But if they had been honest from the start, it would mean that they would have to acknowledge you as being right.

  2. Ha! More or less the expected level of hypocrisy we’ve come to know and love from that crowd. And someone remind me to post a little thing I wrote when I get home from work.

    1. Back from work! I promised a story, so here we go!

      It was a quiet dawn. Birds were chirping, there was a light mist in the air, and the sun was just peaking over the horizon. Slowly, a rumbling noise could be heard approaching over the sounds of nature. They were arriving.

      From the east came a line of hybrids, smartcars, and minivans. They were plastered with bumper stickers proclaiming the self-righteousness of the occupants and their support of every cause to be found in the past twenty years. Small lap dogs could be seen in some of the seats, many frantic at the ride.

      From the west came the deep rumble of a column of trucks, SUVs, and jeeps. Many were covered in dirt from heavy use, and though some were warn they were well maintained and tore through the countryside with ease. A few large dogs could be seen with their heads out the windows enjoying the wind.

      The groups came to a stop a few hundred yards away from each other, and began unloading. To the west, a diverse group of men and women emerged. Men and women of every race and walk of life were busy removing boxes and cases from every vehicle. On the other side was a gaggle of white, middle class suburbanites were milling around, counting noses to ensure their group ticked off enough diversity checkmarks to not be offensive. Thankfully, enough self-identified as other genders, orientations, species, or forms of matter to qualify that the meeting was allowed to continue.

      They began to bring out their weapons. A few had some dulled swords and a couple of sets of bows and arrows they had gotten from Wal-Mart (of course they usually never shop at that place) for LARPing, but they were not the norm. Instead, groups could be seen huddled around power outlets, iPhones and tablets ready to write blistering tweets and blog posts, and Tubmlr rants about the horrors of their opponents. A few had set up their electric cars as charging stations, but one of those started smoking for some reason. Nevertheless, their batteries could survive the loss of the outlets and a nearby cell tower could carry their words to the masses. No bathrooms, though, which prompted a number of tweets about the misogyny of nature to not provide proper facilities.

      To the west, men and women were unloading an incredible assortment of arms. There was everything from Old Russian surplus to heavily modified AR Style rifles. Several fully automatic weapons were in evidence and a couple of people had even brought some crew served systems. Further back, Mike Williamson could be seen with a rifle slung over his back as he sold a few of his knives to fans. Once everything was unloaded, a number of combatants pulled out shovels and entrenching tools then went to work on trenches, latrines, and a fire pit for the post battle BBQ.

      Everything had been going well until an argument had broken out. The group to the west couldn’t agree on if the BBQ should use hickory or mesquite and there were some definite camps forming around the whole pig vs cow thing. It looked like the start of a pretty fun debate, but time was a little short for it. Meanwhile, on the other side of the field, a young man (who actually was biologically male for those wondering) was eating a ham sandwich. Within seconds, he had micro-aggressed against Muslims, Jews, vegans, pig-kin, women, and half the other groups in the camp. Instantly, the internet was full of his stories about his insensitivity and evil ways. A new hashtag, #HamsUpDontShoot, was created and his home address and phone number were published. Boxes of pig feces were on their way within five minutes.

      Disgusted by his former friends, the man got in his car and drove over to the other side of the field. After explaining his story everyone agreed that it sucked and he was welcome to stay. The refugee thanked them and quickly joined in digging the second fire pit. The hickory vs mesquite debate had been settled with the suggestion of building a fire of each and having a competition later to decide the champion. Plus, with two fires, they could fit both the pork and beef on the flames without trouble. Soon, the smell of wood smoke and sizzling meat filled the air.

      At ten o’clock, representatives from the two groups met in the middle of the field to discuss terms. From the west comes the League of Evil, themselves. There’s Vox Day, Tom Kratman, Larry Correia, Sarah Hoyt, and Brad Torgersen. Unfortunately Wendell the Manatee’s traveling tank had sprung a leak, so he wouldn’t be attending. Facing them were Damian Walter, Tempest Bradford, John Scalzi, and a couple other vocal SJWs. “Are you sure you want to do this?” came the question from the west.

      “Oh course you racist trans-phobic piece of trash!” was the shrill reply. “I hope you all die in a fire with the rest of your shit lord friends!” another chimed in. While they were all getting their pieces in, the five representatives of the west looked at each other, shrugged, and then turned to walk back to their lines. It was quite a bit further than their opponents’ walk because two of them were so overweight and they really wanted to avoid another argument of fit-privilege and how being 400 pounds and 5’6” was perfectly healthy.

      They returned to their sides and waited. After half an hour, the western group heard a commotion coming from the east. There wasn’t much to see, but a column of smoke could be seen rising from that direction. Another fifteen minutes and the noises subsided. Wary of a trap, a dozen men and women were sent to check out what happened. Creeping through the tall grass, the scouts made their way over the no man’s land to the opposing side. What they found turned their stomachs. From interrogating the few survivors, they learned that several members had begun claiming that all cis men should die, and enough of the group had agreed that the purge began. Then the biological females. Then the non-otherkin. And it went on and on like that until few had been spared the most horrific of deaths. There was blood and assorted bodily fluids everywhere, with limbs tossed this way and that. One body had been tied up and brutally mutilated with a sign proclaiming “King of the Shitlords” hammered through his(?) chest.

      The group returned to camp to relay the news. Everyone was somber for a few minutes, but as the smell of well cooked meat filled the air a party atmosphere filled the air. Plates of delicious dead animal were passed out and in the end no one could decide which wood made the better BBQ. Beer flowed freely for anyone who wanted it, and some of the southerners had brought gallons of iced tea for the ones who wanted to stay sober. The people who had been disappointed by not being able to fire their rifles had set up a target range consisting of their former enemies’ iPads and not a little tannerite. The party lasted late into the night and much fun was had by all. Before parting, they all agreed that it was the best idea the SJWs had ever had, and hoped the next batch would come up with it again, soon.

      1. For the record, I vote for hickory for the BBQ. As for the pig vs. cow thing, my preference would be for both of the above, possibly with some chicken wings as a side dish.

      2. I would like to see lots of pig, fish and chicken at the BBQ.

        That way, more delicious beef for me.

  3. That hate-fest thread has done me a world of good.

    See, I like people. It’s part of why I love working in a library. I don’t like it when people fight. I do still wish SPs and non could get along.

    I actually got into a bit of a funk over this over the weekend after the FB debates.

    Now I can just look at that and remind myself that the bile and vitriol is laid at their feet, and that I shouldn’t give a dried fig over what they think.

    1. I feel you. It’s easy to get bogged down by this. Just remember, Larry likes confrontation. You keep being a peacemaker, and Larry light the fires. 😀

  4. I felt a disturbance in the Force, as if many SJWs cried out in terror and kept whingeing…

    …okay, that doesn’t require Force sensitivity to detect, really.

  5. Here’s an interesting idea.

    You’ve been to Gen Con (you signed some books there for me last year!); you know it has a significant genre fiction and writing component, with lots of writers, editors, etc. as guests, including big names like Mercedes Lackey, Jim Butcher, Larry Correia… 😉

    What if WorldCon one year were Gen Con? A convention with 56,000+ genre fans in attendance. That’s an order of magnitude more than LonCon had.

    Maybe you should consider looking into starting a Sad Puppies Campaign for a Gen Con WorldCon.

  6. Oh. Ghod…

    After looking through that thread and examining the smug, supercilious attitude of Theresa Hayden there’s no flippin’ way in heck that I’m buying a Tor imprint again.

    “The Sad Puppies aren’t trying to increase general reader participation in the worldcon and the Hugos. Their aim is to to exclude the honest readerly enthusiasms of large segments of the Hugo voters.”


    The ‘voters’ are very important to her, as long as they’re the RIGHT KIND of voters. ‘Our People’, don’tcha know, the ‘QUALITY’, the ‘elite’. The REAL fans, who live and breathe fandom and think according to the RIGHT ways, and no other pseudo-fannish thinking will be accepted or condoned.

    1. I’m not going to punish (for example) Brandon Sanderson for the actions of one person (or even a bunch of people) at a publishing house. Doing so strikes me as being just as silly as people saying “I’m not going to see Ender’s Game because OSC is a meaniepants” without taking into consideration the hundreds of other people who worked hard to bring it to the screen.

      And I’m certainly not going to shoot myself in the foot by not subbing my short fiction to Tor. If they want to throw that much money at my head for my stories (hey, it could happen), then I’m mercenary enough to not turn my nose up at it.

      I would hope, at the end of the day, that they wouldn’t reject me based on my politics any more than I would reject them based on theirs. If I restricted myself to imprints where I agreed with the politics of the editors, I’d have very little to read.

      1. Your call, and I will not attempt to persuade you otherwise. A market is a market and money is money, after all.

        My problem is that I’ve dealt with far too many people who believe that their opinion, and only their opinion, is how Things Should Be, and they will use all their influence to force things that are not as they like them to be more as they’d rather. (And you’d be surprised at how heated some can get over very inconsequential things. As the joke used to go about politicking in the SCA – “The infighting was so bad because the stakes were so very small.”)

        From what I see in the linked thread she (and quite a few of her supporters) are not concerned with Fandom as such or as a whole, but instead are concerned about the ‘purity’ of the fan base who votes for the Hugos.

        Which leads me to believe that (a) – she’s attempting to protect the Tor imprint because ‘Hugo=Status’ and losing Hugos reduces the status – and not having the ‘right fandom’ voting reduces the Hugo count, and (b) she could probably be quite pleasant in person but would not hesitate to character-assassinate (and not in the editorial sense either) anyone or any group who would threaten her imprint’s chances of a Hugo.

        Which the Sad Puppies do, which is why she’s upset.

        Your mileage may vary, of course. But to her, I’m not a ‘fan’. So I’ll just take my wretched, filthy, un-fannish money and wander along. I wouldn’t wish to offend her delicate sensibilities with my impure cash.

        (And as far as the OSC thing goes – that also strikes me as a case of a small and vocal group going ‘Oh, he doesn’t believe EVERYTHING I hold to be true, even though he’s a good writer and I enjoy his work, now he must be ostracized by all ‘good’ people and if he could be reduced to penury and eating out of trash cans all the better.’ Hell hath little fury like a liberal who sees their ‘tolerance’ put to the test.)

        As far as rejecting your for your politics go – if your politics are at all evident in your writing then… well, just check out Sarah Hoyt’s opinions and experiences on that. They weren’t good ones.

        1. “And as far as the OSC thing goes”

          OSC appears to have been misquoted rather grossly, and subsequently suffered the usual slander spiral as people distort the misquote more and more (kind of like a game of ‘Telephone’). I’m not sure of the full details, but there are quite a few people out there who believe that he would happily send all of the gays off to concentration camps.

          1. Yeah but… the people who think so generally think that about anyone who isn’t wearing a rainbow tutu and marching in a parade. Reference to reality isn’t part of that belief system.

          2. Initially, yes, that rather extreme position was limited to just the usual fanatics. But I think it’s spread beyond that to parts of the more general population.

      1. Your books are friggin awesome.

        Remember, Tor may be run by people like Hayden, but they aren’t the ultimate bosses. If enough authors like Card, Wright, and Sanderson sell well, and yet they keep pushing their dharlings who don’t, eventually the higher ups will get tired of hemorrhaging money and do something about it.

        1. TNH’s apparent firing is a positive sign that Tor is losing patience with editors running around like high school hall monitors using their position to punish the popular kids. About time. The level of unprofessionalism on display has been mind blowing.

          I think you’re right that the folks running Tor know who butters their bread, viz. OSC, Sanderson, and game tie-in writers. I also think a GamerGate style consumer and artist revolt is brewing in SFF that will help motivate the big publishers to clean house.

      2. I’ve bought two of your ebooks from Amazon, from the Castalia House imprint. And if you self-publish your other works, I’ll gladly buy them, especially if I can be sure you’ll be getting the majority of the purchase price.

        1. I realize the above sounds rather harsh, and I apologize if it offends you. But having seen through Hoyt’s blog what goes on through the various publishing houses and their ‘creative’ accounting practices when it comes to royalty payments, I’d much rather see you get the money directly through Amazon than filter it through them.

          And I realize there’s really no good way to make that look better, so I’m just gonna shut up now… 🙁

      3. John,

        I **STARTED** reading you as a result of a mention here on MHN that your stuff was worth reading.

        That, of and by itself, was sufficient to get me to buy “Count to a Trillion”.

        I haven’t stopped since. . .

      4. Mr. Wright,

        If you’re able to say what % of cover you take home, I’ll be happy to send it to you every time I buy one of your books used.

        However, war is logistics, and the supply line keeping Tor alive is money. I decline to finance my enemies. Tor are SJW Inc. and have declared me and my friends un-persons. It only takes one to start a war, and a fool not to stand up to aggression.

        Happily, Castalia House and Baen are around to throw money toward.

        Thank you for your writing. It’s worth paying for.

        1. John: I love the books that You, Brandon, Orson, and the other despised cash cow writers at Tor produce but I will not buy any of your books as long as Tor is getting the majority of my money. I tend to crawl the used book stores and over use my library card to get my fix on what you have written but there is a small problem. Other Tor writers like Scalzi and Stoss are easily found at the the used book stores and there is no waiting list at the library. This is not true for your books and all the other ‘popular’ (hack, spit) writers at Tor.

    2. Hey! Whoa! Slow down! John (C. Wright ) and I still write for Tor! Don’t give up on all of us ;-)!

      1. Apparently her husband still does – so if something in the Tor catalog interests me, I’ll buy half of it.

        Wait… umm… that’s not gonna work…

        I’ll find two, and flip a coin as to which I get. Would that suffice?

      1. True, Teresa got the boot…but her equally malodorous husband and Liz Bourke still do work for Tor.

        (And really, given that Teresa cheerfully libeled one of Tor’s own authors, John C. Wright, as part of her anti-Puppies jihad, I can see why they got rid of her. Just sayin’… 😉 )

        That said, while there are certain writers who write for Tor I’ll still read and purchase – I’m in no hurry to throw out my Wheel of Time hardcovers or Weber’s “Safehold” series, for example, or turn my back on Wright or Brandon Sanderson – I’ll regrettably be looking at any future Tor releases with a jaundiced eye, particularly by newer authors, and purely because of the influence of people like Bourke and the Nielsen-Haydens on the selection process.

        And there are certainly particular authors like – Scalzi and Charles Stross – who I absolutely refuse to read on principle, purely because of their expressed contempt for people like me and their insistence that I’m “not a real fan” because I don’t agree with their personal politics and their domination of “official” fandom.

  7. I just read the link on Brad R. Torgersen’s website, so as a fan I apparently hate Larry’s work so much thought I have bought both hardcopy and e-book versions of his work. And the fact I would like an action figure line, Playstation 4 game and animated movies of the Monster Hunter books must be the obvious sign of delusional mind. I vote with dollars, so i cast ny first vote for the big guy back in 2009 in the form of $7.99, when I bought my first MHI book. Most of the crap that is presented as HUGO worthy is just not up to par with the likes of the authors I actually read on aregular bassis.

    1. I saw the MHI book when it first hit and loved it,but I have to disagree with the P4 MHI game. MHI MMO instead. Think about world/area bosses 🙂

  8. I’ve been seeing online grumblings for about a week now over the new Hugo nomination slate. Nothing concrete, and much of it seems to have taken on an echo chamber feel (“so-and-so says they’re nervous, so now I’m nervous”). But there does seem to be a bit of consternation among certain segments of fandom, and I say that’s good: no group should automatically presume their favorites are a “lock” on any award.

    Sad Puppies is succeeding in bringing in new participation in what is suppose to be fandom’s highest award. It’s sad that so many in fandom are more interested in preserving their perception of what the status quo should be.

  9. Sunlight is a great disinfectant, which of course is why the left and the SJW’s hate it so.
    And I see a book idea in there, after all, isn’t the left made up completely of blood sucking parasites who fear Christianity, crosses, etc?

    1. And if you ask them, they’ll tell you that they’re misunderstood, ‘young at heart’ century old stalkers of high school aged girls.

  10. I had not run into their practice of “disemvoweling” prior to that thread. Now I have.

    I had been expecting mature, rational adults; instead I ran smack into a wall of third-graders.

    I wish I’d known. I can do third grade. I just have to get prepped for it.

    1. WTH is “disemvoweling”? I mean, I get that it’s removing all the vowels in your post, but what is it supposed to accomplish? Is it the new SJW-speak, like replacing “woman” or “women” with “wymyn”?

      1. In the ancient history of digital boards, before even the internet, there were BBS. Many of the big ones had no-profanity clauses. AOL, Compuserve, Delphi, etc, etc.

        So you couldn’t say “shit,” but for a long time you _could_say “sh*t.”

        Then one day someone referred to the nation of “Fr@nce.” It was funny, briefly.

      2. It’s not ‘censorship’, as such, but it’s a way to more or less render your opponent’s arguments incomprehensible. You’re not deleting the post, you’re just making it unreadable.

        It’s been used on political blogs since the early 2000s, but has fallen out of favor in the last 6 years or so, primarily because it makes the blog owner look like an idiot.

          1. Not ‘editing’ – they’re ‘improving’ it so others won’t be offended by material considered ‘unclean’.

            On second thought, yeah, they’re editing it. 😉

      3. To make it difficult to read the comment.

        It’s not impossible — I’ve read disemvoweled comments — but it’s not easy. (And I may have a knack for it.)

  11. Increase the voting pool sufficiently, and the results will become unpredictable and may actually reflect the true feelings/opinions of fandom.

    Does that mean that a work I despise might win? Yes, but that’s okay. It might also mean that a work I adored might win.

    1. The taste-makers don’t want a large voting body because “important” books and stories by “important” authors will get pushed out by things that actually sell, actually have substantial audience appeal, actually have traction in the marketplace. Notice how they booed Brandon Sanderson and Wheel of Time last year. “Too popular! Dirty popular series with two dirty popular authors!”

      1. You know when people say being an adult is hard, they think they’re talking about remaining financially solvent. I think for many people, it’s harder to remember that high school and the petty politics of that place are over. Being an adult means you can make you’re own path. As an adult you are not bound by the cliques of high school.

  12. I just went and looked for a comment I saw the other day that exposed so much, but I couldn’t find it again. I don’t know if it was deleted by the commenter or if I just can’t find it amongst all the poo.

    Anyway, the point of it was that this person was a huge Jim Butcher fan and didn’t want to suggest that he take an oath of loyalty or formal condemnation, but they wanted to know if he associated with sad puppies.

    But they didn’t want an oath of loyalty or forced formal condemnation … they just wanna know.

    Those people are beyond ridiculous, they’re creepy, crazy fascists who think Big Brother was good at getting things done and keeping the peace.

    1. I think that comment was @84:

      #84 ::: Sandy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2015, 10:20 AM:
      I’ve overedited a post several times. I’m trying to find a way to say a few things and NOT say one.

      Is this group notable enough that authors should be specifically distancing themselves from it? I think of them as an obscure bunch.

      I notice they chose a Jim Butcher book. Odd to see something on their list I paid money for and read on purpose.

      Do you think Jim Butcher knows they exist?

      Every time I try making this post, it sounds like I’m telling Jim Butcher that he shouldn’t associate with Those Sort Of People, and he should take a stand, or a loyalty oath, or renounce his heliocentric ways or something. If I were granted five minutes to attempt to influence Mr. Butcher I would spend them entirely differently. Like “I want to see you start a new series in a different universe.”

      … according to Amazon, it turns out he’s doing just that. Well then I’d ask him about what he’s doing for tabletop gaming these days or something.

      1. Jim knows about SP. We’re friends. I asked him about it in advance before putting him on the slate.

        Which says a lot about our opposition that it is necessary to ask the authors if they’d be willing to be on the slate first because of the danger of SJW attacks.

        1. I think at least one of the authors who recused himself off the list mentioned that part of the abuse he started getting “you are willing to be associated with THOSE people??!!?”

          Somehow, the whole “I don’t like getting raked over the coals by ‘my side’ because someone we don’t like approves of me” thing didn’t twig a deeper WTF response in his worldview of what kind of people were actually on “his side”

        2. Exactly. I thought that post was so creepy in its utter lack of awareness. She’s saying she wouldn’t want him to be forced to renounce SP but does he really associate with SP? Which means he’s open to attacks for the crime of not being hated by SP.

          Their totalitarian tendencies are truly on display in that forum.

        3. It’s funny, because I don’t recall any reports of harassment by our side against their darlings. We simply let it go.

          Meanwhile, if Sad Puppies nominated someone, they may get harassment left and right.

          As I’ve said elsewhere, one of the best honors for me is to be considered for the Sad Puppies slate. I’d relish being considered by people whose work I truly respect.

          And the book bomb wouldn’t hurt my feelings either, truth be told. 😀

          1. Ahem.


          2. Clamps, GO AWAY. You are a sad, pathetic waste of flesh. You influence no one with your drivel. I pity you and any that have to deal with you face to face.

      2. I’m trying to find a way to say a few things and NOT say one.

        I thought that was hilarious. Normal people realize this is a sign that what you’re about to say is not a nice thing to say. And maybe you should rethink it.

        1. Or grow a pair and just say what you want to say. Even if what somebody said offended me, I’d at least respect them for not being a coward and hiding behind SJW newspeak.

    1. Kate’s doing SP4 next year? Oh that’s awesome to hear.

      And is The Impaler her official Evil League of Evil designation now? ^_^ Inquiring minds want to know *gringringrin*

      1. Larry has called her that, you’ve called her that, so if someone else calls her that, it makes it official.

        Ya know, I’ve always like Kate “The Impaler’s” logo over at Mad Genius Club!

        1. Well, she has at least two treatments of Vlad Tepes under her belt. There is the historical, and then she has him show up as a vampire in one of the con books.

  13. As has been mentioned before, Butcher is one of those authors who helped define an emerging genre. I believe Skin Game may have been his best work in that series at 15 books in. It seems silly to suggest his nomination would be because of anything but the quality of his novel regardless of the “slate” he is listed on. I have no ideas of his political take.

    Worth noting that I disagree with some of the politics Larry expresses here, but he’s thoughtful and funny about it and he writes a hell of a good story. That last part is all that matters when deciding what to read next.

    Reading the comments at nielsenhayden it looks like a lot of folks feel like voting for what is good is important and maybe four or five posters repeatedly hammer out the company line /shrug

    1. Exactly. I have no clue what Jim Butcher’s politics are. I was surprised to find out how far left Elizabeth Moon leans…but since she writes awesome fantasy, I still don’t care. It seems to be very much a SJW thing that “I have to agree with your politics or I can’t read your stuff.” It’s very weird, but I suppose it explains the downward spiral of much of sf/fantasy until recently…

      1. That’s our big problem – we don’t care about the authors’ politics if they write fun (or even thoughtful) books that entertain more than they preach. That’s not acceptable, because all correct-minded folks are supposed to read for message and uplift, not ‘mere’ entertainment. Our not caring about the moral qualifications of the authors (with a few exceptions) bugs the living daylights out of the SJW/ fictionally-correct crowd.

      2. Hell, I think she’s still to the right of Eric Flint (avowed and card carrying communist), and I like his stuff too.

        Like you say, we don’t give a damn what your politics is. Tell us a great story, and we’re happy campers.

      3. I had Moon’s politics pegged somewhere in the middle of Green Mars. Good series, but the whole neo-marxian economics she infused the series with was the tell. It’s exactly the series I think of when Sad Puppies comes up.

          1. Robinson lets leftard politics invade his stuff as well.

            He ends his series with the ew Martian government banning guns, while ignoring weapons being held by the green faction.

            And he somehow expected that the American colonists would obey the edict for a New York second. Oh well, when you are the author, you get to insert nonsense in, despite it causing suspension of disbelief failures.

          2. I haven’t read much of Moon’s scifi. I think I read the one she did with Anne McCaffrey, but it irked me (because that was about the point most of McCaffrey’s stuff began to irk me). Her fantasy is great though–and in many ways overtly Christian to boot. (Not that one can’t be left-leaning and still Christian, despite what some of the more rabid SJWs claim.) And while the Paks series has a lot of politics in, it’s medieval-fantasy politics, so definitely doesn’t lean in any of the modern directions…

          3. Not that one can’t be left-leaning and still Christian, despite what some of the more rabid SJWs claim

            And some on the right, as well. Got into a “spirited discussion” with someone about this a few days ago in an e-mail group…

      4. “It seems to be very much a SJW thing that ‘I have to agree with your politics or I can’t read your stuff.’ It’s very weird, but I suppose it explains the downward spiral of much of sf/fantasy until recently…”

        It’s a left-wing tradition, like apologizing for mass-murderers, or coming up with “new, revisionist” history that’s actually the same old shit they’ve put out before.

        Get the right mind-set, and it’s actually pretty funny.

    2. Skin Game was fantastic. I hated Ghost Story and, after Changes, wasn’t sure if he was going anywhere with the series anymore. Fortunately, patience paid off and I was rewarded with one of his best works ever. It’s why it ended up on my Best Novel list for my Hugo nomination.

      1. Jim Butcher plotted out the entire story arc of the series before he wrote the first book. ‘Around 20 books + Apocalyptic trilogy’

        Skin Games is #15.
        Peace Talks will be #16.

        1. Still waiting for the dragon to rear his scaly head. You *know* that thing’s going to show up again sooner or later…

  14. I checked out the hayden site. What bothered me more than anything else were the implications that the Sad Puppies orgainizers condoned and had followers who commited the vile practice of SWATting. Has anyone heard of an SJW or related type who has been SWATted? I have not, but I don’t read everything, so I would appreciate it if anyone could point me to a case of it happening.

    1. I thought that was odd, too. I have seen that it’s a gamer thing (amongst each other, but not necessarily targeted to the anti-gamergate/gamergate issue) and I’ve seen that several right leaning bloggers have had it happen to them.

      With the way HuffPo (and from there, FB) jumps on every little thing Sarkeesian claims, I’d think I’d hear of her being SWATted, but I haven’t. SJWs lie a lot and they’re pathological about it, so it’s possible they believe they’ve been SWATted. Or doxxed.

      1. It’s not just a gamer thing.

        The first person I know of who was SWATed was Erik Erikson, who isn’t a gamer so far as I know. This is long before I started hearing about the practice showing up in the gaming community.

        Of course, Erikson can’t be considered a progressive by most any stretch of the imagination, so…

      2. Hard thing about doxxing authors is, well, our names and such are already out there. I can just see Larry now…

        “Oh noes! They doxxed me! They now know that I’m a wealthy writer who is the son of a poor, illiterate dairy farmer! What shall I do, what shall I do? I’ve got it! I’ll apologize… hah… hahah… on second thought, I’m going to go snuggle my hot wife and we’ll count money ala Scrooge McDuck.”

      3. It’s yet another infantile reference to GamerGate. It outright ignores that the only flesh and blood troll identified was a brazilian clickbait journo and that both the GNAA and Goon Squad were actively trolling on the topic when it was still the Zoe Post. There have been no instances of SWATting over the issue to my knowledge.

    2. I’ve seen SJWs lead SWATting attempts on people. I’ve also seen them lie about harassment, harass themselves from their own Twitter accounts for attention, and consistently use DARVO tactics (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender) to rack up sympathy even as they attack. I have yet to hear of a legitimate SWATting of a Leftist, although I am willing to be corrected if wrong.

      1. I spend enough time in various tech forums who’s politics, when it (increasingly) comes up, aren’t exactly right of center. or even near the center on either side.

        While there ar a few examples of SWATTING (I don’t recall specifics) that may have been neutrals, or over stupid non-political crap, I don’t know of many examples that are held out.

        Seriously – imagine if instead of that BS “I feel threatened” by a bomb hoax and lawful carry thing Anita Sharkeeshan did, she or someone prominent had actually gotten SWATTED. They’d be waving that bloody shirt for all it was worth.

        Add that to the blatantly hoaxed threatening tweets (one had forgotten to log out of his sock puppet account or even hit “post” before screen capturing the post…) and other bogus crap….

    3. SWATing is something that the left does, and does a lot. I’m fairly sure that everyone who has been SWATed to date was either on the right, or was a non-political target of a very sore loser in online gaming.

    4. Frankly the first incidence of SWATting I’d heard of had a right-wing reporter / bloggeras the victim, targeted by a rabid leftist. Popehat had more on the case as I recall. It’s been some years.

      The thing that I remember that stands out was that the guy who did the SWATting actively called his victim so he’d have a phone in his hand when he went to answer the door. The victim was lucky as the SWAT team wasn’t a trigger happy bunch and did not shoot the victim just because he had a phone in his hand.

      1. Pat Frey, AKA “Patterico”. He believes it has something to do with his coverage of the 2011 “Weinergate”, and he’s personally certain it was a guy named Neal Rauhauser.

      2. Having the phone in hand does two things. First, it confirms that the victim is actually at home (otherwise there’s not much point to the SWATting). Second, the initiator gets to act as a voyeur, and listen in when the police come through the door.

      3. Our insurance won’t cover my business because part of it is non-liberal blogging. They mentioned SWATting and other charming practices as a reason.

    5. That’s what you call “battlespace preparation.” When they start SWATting the Sad Puppies authors and their fans, they’ll be able to claim “But they started it!”

      It’s practically axiomatic by now that the Left assumes their opponents are every bit as evil and assholish as they are, to justify their own evil and assholish actions.

      And yes, SWATting is pretty much exclusively a tactic of the Left. I’ve never heard of a single conservative who did anything like that…but there’s quite a few conservatives, like Robert Stacy McCain and Patrick Frey, who have been on the receiving end.

      It’s the sort of thing you’d expect out of cowardly leftists too gutless to do their own killing. And make no mistake, that’s precisely the intent of SWATting.

      On the other hand, the Left has historically been quite adept at ordering or tricking other people, even people with badges, to do their dirty work. So there’s really nothing new about the tactic, is there?

  15. And Hayden takes the time to not only lie about Larry, but about GamerGate.

    Quelle surprise.

    Lying about GamerGate seems to be the new intellectual dishonesty tell, alternately it’s the new SJW shibboleth.

    Stunning to see so many people deliberately choose bitterness and anger, and hence misery, as a way of life.

    1. But if you ask them, they are all about being inclusive, loving, open, and sparkly. Until you say the wrong thing. Then they turn on your like starved hyenas. Because nothing said “Tolerance!” like instantly attacking everyone who deviates from the groupthink.

      1. Notice how things turned around when we ceased engaging with them on their home turf, wrote HTML, monitored their hate speech and then signal boosted it. That’s all they understand.

        Pretty hard to ban me from my own page or fisk your own quotes. A lot of them have gone much more quiet with the hate speech because it is drawing increasing attention and they don’t want to be quoted on Breitbart or elsewhere.

      2. “Because nothing said ‘Tolerance!’ like instantly attacking everyone who deviates from the groupthink.” — Brad Torgerson.

        You are hereby notified that that line has been stolen.

      3. It occurs to me that an utter bastard might start using their hyenaish tendencies against them to start cutting members out of their own herd.

        Only an idiot insists on wearing boxing gloves in a knife fight…

  16. OMG Kate Paulk is doing SP4? Lord help the SJWs because nothing else will be able to. Milady of the Sharp Tongue and Sharper Wit will soon be released upon the world. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

  17. I tried – I really tried – to read some of the threads. Even got through SOME of the articles before the level of pure bull feces made me quit for my own sanity.

    Mrs (?) Hayden’s three point bit of pure projection on why SP 1,2, and 3 were created, in and of itself being a perfect definition for how Patriarchy theory, or critical whatsis theory, are used in practice be their fellows. Statements of how having SP nominees on the hugo ballot knocking women off is just “icing on the cake”.

    The level of misrepresentation, irrelevancies, and as you noted, proving our point, on display is just staggering.

  18. When you see nonsense posts with all the vowels removed, that’s what SJW bloggers do to people who disagree with them.

    Is that what that was? I was so confused.

    Fascinating discussion, actually. They are so used to snippy moderators who close down comments like they’re all in kindergarten that they dont’ get that normal people respond badly to that sort of thing.

    1. Yep. The moderators find comments that disagree with them, and then they childishly remove all the vowels to make you look stupid, and then they block you, Because SJWs are all about tolerance and free speech, provided you agree with them. Meanwhile, on my blog of hatey-hatemongery, the only thing I block is spam and the actual scary death threats. I don’t mess with posts, and I like when people show up to actually debate (which is rare). I’ve only ever banned 20 IPs, which only represents I think 4 crazy people who keep coming back.

      1. I think three quarters of them are Clamps, aren’t they?

        FWIW, the only time I remember anyone being deleted or anything was Clamps, and that’s after years of his bullshit. I don’t think anyone with an ounce of intellectual honesty would blame you there.

      2. What I found presumptuous was Mrs. Hayden’s assumption that Brad was to be at her beck and call in answering questions and accusations posed by her and other commenters.

        To presume that an individual who offers an explanation must then remain around, despite being blocked for some of that time and having a job and family outside of the internet, is an example of arrogance that far exceeds much of what I’ve encountered in real life.

        1. I wasn’t familiar with her before, but she really came off a jerk to me in her interactions, her insisting people were ‘lying’ and her demands to be answered. And yes, the weird ‘you were banned for 24 hours because you didn’t answer my questions’ and the ‘i’ve turned off comments for the night’. So strange.

          But I’m sure we should all believe her when she says politics plays no role in her evaluation of potential writers at all.

        2. This is what she posted when Brad commented on being banned:
          #387 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: March 28, 2015, 07:36 PM:

          Brad Torgersen @366:

          Teresa: I am cursorily following the thread as best as I can, in between other things requiring my attention. Last night was pretty busy for me. No eyes on this space as a result. Didn’t notice your questions, or your ban. A man gets banned for not seeing a question? Pray tell, what is the burning question that must be answered, lest a chap be banned?

          Tough beans. If you won’t read, don’t comment. This is a conversation. We aren’t meekly assembled here to listen to you. That goes for the rest of the pups as well. Love your vowels while you’ve got ’em.

          Moving on, I think you’re lying when you say you didn’t notice my remarks to you. But if I’m mistaken about that, and you really did miss that many comments addressed directly to you by the moderator, you are tragically slow on the uptake.

      3. My experience has been that they are so certain of the ‘rightness’ and ‘correctness’ of their position that they don’t believe that debate is possible.

        I’ve been told that my worldview on a particular topic was “overly simplistic to the point of being downright unethical, albeit probably not maliciously so.”

        The individual used that to totally dismiss anything I had to say.

      4. “Because SJWs are all about tolerance and free speech, provided you agree with them.” – Larry Correia

        That too is now stolen.

  19. Wait Jim Butcher is considered right wing? Let me guess he doesn’t conform to group think and moral crusaders?

    Its been fascinating and revolting looking into that house which SJW’s call home

    1. Jim isn’t even close to right wing, but he’s not a witch hunting SJW, so basically that makes him SatanHitler.

      If you look at our nominees, they are all over the board politically, because we’re making this about the work. But Teresa and her ilk won’t stop screeching long enough to admit that we’re not pure evil. The SJW contingent has their head so far up their asses that if you’re not one of them, then you’re against them.

      1. They’ve now taken to saying the SP nominees from last year were “unreadable”, which is their excuse for having refused to read them based on their (the SJWs) politics.

        Going back to look at their online brags about never reading nominated books due to SP association, one does wonder how they deem something “unreadable” when they bragged about never trying to read it.

        1. NKR: Watching them make taste arguments — these are the people who snubbed Terry Pratchet and still snub Tim Powers — is painful. Most of the people claiming to have read SP2 and disliked it, are lying. They never bothered to read SP2. They knew going in they were going to down-vote the SP2 slate contents. That’s one reason we knew SP3 had to bring a bigger, more bad-ass slate. Make it harder for the cowards to sniff and point fingers about quality. And we will keep doing that, year after year. Until only the stalwart True Believer SMOFs still think that SP can’t or doesn’t represent top-drawer work in the field.

          1. Tim Powers? Really? If I were making a list of writers who have unquestionable “literary” chops while still managing to tell a good story, Powers would be very near the top.

          2. Well, I’ve heard Tim Powers is . . . (whispers) Catholic. Explains a great deal.

        2. These people are Orwell’s dream kids. They constantly say stuff like they won’t read Golden Age SF because of what’s in it. Conversely, they call my research “hate-reading” cuz they can’t figure out why I read stuff by people I hate. How would I know that without reading it? And how could I make a case it’s institutionalized as opposed to an anomaly if I didn’t read a lot of it? Why do they think I don’t like their work – cuz I dont’ read it?

      2. Yeah i mean god forbid we judge the book and not the writer.

        Ive seen some pretty shitty people proclaiming to be SJW but its ok because they are part of the ‘Tribe’ .

    1. Y hv bn dsmvld. Thks fr plyng.

      I wonder if the similarity between disemvowel and disembowel were intentional. Violence in action, there, friends. 🙁

      1. Yes. This is their literary equivalent of disemboweling. All of the violent hate, projected iwth loathing, but with none of the physicality. Because if they tried the real thing, it would go poorly for them.

  20. Teresa completely gave the game away, with that off-hand quip about how the Hugos belong to Worldcon and everyone else should go away and do something else. That’s the cognitive dissonance of claiming “inclusivity” while displaying exclusive attitudes, practices, and methods.

    “Of course you’re free to join us! Just don’t be surprised when we give you a cold shoulder and make you feel unwelcome because you say incorrect things, are a fan of incorrect stuff, aren’t in the correct crowd, don’t have the correct taste! Otherwise, you’ll be welcomed with open arms!”

    It would be easier if they’d just change it so the Hugos were officially “The little award, for the little convention,” but as long as they want to brand the Hugos as being “big” we will keep hammering them. And Teresa fancies herself a big pickle in both the pro publishing world and the SMOF world. She should know better than to let the mask slip like that.

    Because there couldn’t possibly be a conflict of interest, what with keeping the Hugo voting body small, and being the husband of TOR’s chief boss, and somehow TOR and TOR.COM always come up roses on the Hugo final ballot, and take home lots of wins all the time, etc. Nope. No coincidence there. Absolutely none. Avert your eyes, gentle folk!

    It’s those evil SAD PUPPIES who want to game the system and ruin the integrity of the award!!

    1. You see, WorldCon is about curating the highest quality of work, not trying to please those hoi-palloi in the *sniff* market. We are selecting works for the ages, not popular trash.

      And if you will excuse me, I need to go wash my hands after typing that.

      1. What’s wrong with redefining SFF’s highest quality of work as meeting a standard as a sort of racial revenge fiction that puts whites, men and heterosexuals at the back of the bus they’ve done to others since they invaded Islam and killed everyone in 640 A.D.?

        Lady astronauts fall onto gay men having sex observed by a unicorn which can’t see gender. What’s more all Lens Mensy than that?

        1. If they actually read the lensman series, Smith’s early twentieth century attitude towords women whould have made their heads asplode.

          A woman getting a lens was a big deal in the series, and she had to have a special one …

          1. Everyone in the Lensman series got a special Lens. They were all custom-made for the individual, and would kill anyone who tried to use anyone else’s Lens.

          2. E.E. Smith was born in 1890 and saw the first automobile made. He was incredibly progressive for his time. The disingenuous habit of looking at a writer through a moral “lens” nearly a century later is like comparing a 5’6″ Spartan to Ray Lewis and saying the Spartan was a terrible athlete.

            Heinlein too… He used to be credited with giving women in sci-fi a voice and portraying them as strong characters. He was born in 1907. His perspective was not the common take on science fiction at the time. I believe they edited about 20% of SIaSL for first publication because of the church/hippie/communism elements.

            The older I get the smarter Thomas Jefferson seems…

          3. I love the way SJWs always call the Lensmen stuff white man fiction, as if Smith was a supremacist purposefully writing stuff the KKK would approve. There is no actual bottom to SJW stupidity.

          4. Stephen:

            Re-read the series. The one female lensman was called the red lensman for a reason. Not that I really fault him for it … his attitude is a bit dated, but just added to the charm of the series.

          5. She was called the Red Lensman because she gave herself the title. She recognized that in several ways (mostly physical — the Lens couldn’t override biology) she hadn’t had the same combat experience that other Lensman had.

    2. You know, if the people who nominated and voted on Hugo’s was designed to be a small group – like a juried award, for example – I wouldn’t mind so much.

      But it’s not. It’s designed to be open for anyone to vote. But TNH doesn’t want that, so keep out the Great Unwashed Masses, lest we sully the good name of Hugo.

    3. I’m laying down a marker. Either at this WorldCon or the next there will be a push to eliminate supporting memberships, to combat “voting irregularities.”

          1. Here’s hoping you’re right, because they’ll certainly get their way.

          2. From what I understand, rules changes are a two year process, so we’ll at least get a SP4.

      1. Actually, they aren’t going to stop anyone from buying supporting memberships; they just plan to (and several posts specifically say this) avoid bright line rules on how people’s votes can be ruled invalid by the awards committee.

        “tnh@43: “I’d give the Hugo administrators the right to confidentially inform their Chair and some designated fraction of WSFS that some of the votes or voting patterns look dodgy…”

        Oh, but can’t you hear the whining of the sad puppies? Their jurisprudence (as well as Justice Scalia’s) seems to be, “Nothing in the rules? No problem!” That’s why they’re so fond of fixed rules and bright lines—these things can be gamed.”

        “The only method that has ever worked against abusive rules-lawyers is moderators empowered to say, “You’re being an asshole, and now you are banned,” and powerful gatekeepers behind the moderators supporting them when the rules-lawyers attempt to shriek for redress.”

  21. I’m curious to see the final ballot, if the mere *rumors* about the nominations have provoked such a firestorm. SP must have done as well or better than 2014. If it was less, they wouldn’t be freaking out a week ahead of time.

    1. The thing that has me scratching my head is, it’s likely to have Jim Butcher on it. Because that man is POPULAR. Hell, his fandom is gonna be all kinds of happy when they find out they can vote for Jim. Now I won’t say that everyone’s read him, but he has a LOT of readers. I got introduced to his stuff pretty late and when I did the friends who share a lot of my reading likes said “OH MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU NOT READ THIS GUY’S STUFF HE IS AWESOME!”

      But if it does have Jim and they find out, that’s apparently Sad Puppies ‘ballot stuffing’. Uh…

      And I kid you not, there are people who are ragingly mad that Sad Puppies is being ‘associated’ with Gamergate, thus they will NEVER BUY ANY BOOKS BY AUTHORS ON SP SLATES EVER AGAIN SO GAMERGATER AUTHORS WILL NEVER GET THEIR MONEY. Uh. What?

      I’m seriously baffled by that thought process. “NOOO! These dauthors are LIKED by people who support Gamergate, so I will never buy another book these authors write, because “HOW DARE SOME GAMERGATER LIKE THIS AUTHOR’S WORKS THIS AUTHOR MUST BE A GAMERGATER TOOOOO!!!!!!” Or something just as strange.

      It’s a CRIME to these guys to ENJOY Jim Butcher, or Kevin Anderson so much that we think they should be NOMINATED?! Because of unrelated Gamergater people possibly going “OH YES FINALLY AN AUTHOR I LIKED FOR YEARS IS NOMINATED WHERE DO I SIGN UP TO VOTE?!”

      I’m really reminded of how abusers blame the victims for the actions of the abusers. “You’re crying because I hit you, so I hit you because you’re crying, and you cried some more, and oh, you like this book? Well, I tore it apart because you liked it and if you hadn’t liked it I wouldn’t have torn it apart, and it’s your fault it is torn to pieces. Because you liked it and you are crying over it, so I will hit you because you’re crying.”

    2. It’s guilt by association. Paul Weimer was doing that earlier today, mentioning that Sad Puppies has links to GamerGate. Of course, lots of people have associations. And if you try hard enough, you can make anyone “guilty” because of them.

  22. About boycotting TOR. I am opposed for personal reasons, mostly because I don’t want to make my friends and authors I enjoy and admire, responsible for the thoughtlessness or maliciousness of an editor. I have no problem with Doherty, and consider Tom to be his own person, far apart from some of the people who work for him; or worked for him (past tense) in Teresa’s case. In point of fact, Tom has a piece of BAEN in his pocket.

    I think it’s a drag one of Tom’s former people is turning off consumers. But I wouldn’t want John C. Wright or L.E. Modesitt, Jr. to suffer as a result. Nor Brandon Sanderson, nor anyone else.

    It’s a tough call. Each of us have to make our own decisions. I’ve bought a lot of TOR over the years, same with DEL RAY, and DAW, and BAEN. I didn’t care about the personal or fan politics of the editors.

    1. I’m not boycotting Tor, exactly. Established authors that I know I like that have the misfortune to be published there, I will still buy their works. But since they’ve started letting the mask slip, I’ve bought exactly zero books from new authors that they’re publishing, without an independent recommendation from a reliable source.

    2. Brad I’m afraid I’ve been boycotting Tor for years.


      I’ll happily end my boycott, on the off chance they publish something I want to read. I’m just not that into TV tie-ins and I already own all of Orson Scott Card books. There is not much more for me at Tor.

    3. I was a bit surprised to see that Brandon Sanderson’s latest (Firefight) is actually published by Random House/Delacorte Press, not Tor. Got it from the library, because hard covers aren’t in my budget these days, alas.

      I honestly know beans about publishing, but I’m presuming they’re all part of the same conglomerate. But there’s no reference to Tor on it anywhere that I’m seeing.

    4. I won’t boycott a publishing house. That’s stupid and, quite frankly, sends the wrong message. I’ll just buy books of authors who entertain me. That way, fluffy bunny crap that is “groundbreaking” and “deals with issues of today” won’t make any money while something entertaining will.

    5. All perfectly valid reasons to keep supporting authors who happen to write for Tor.

      There have also been signs that Tor are getting their act together. After all, TNH and Scalzi are no longer associated with them.

    6. Sounds to me like those authors need to dis-associate themselves from such a manifestly odious enterprise.

    7. Well said, Brad. I’d rather stick to reading or not reading a book based on it’s content and whether or not I consider the writer talented. I’ve read people who I’m politically opposed to because they’ve got chops. (GRRM, for one.)

    8. I wouldn’t boycott writers I already like, but there are some authors I’ll make a point to only buy used.

    9. Tor/Doherty is, so far as I know, the only other house to join Baen in not putting DRM on their ebooks.

      1. Macmillan, of which Tor is a product line, in general doesn’t put DRM on their books anymore. Of course, Macmillan was also caught colluding with other publishers and Apple to keep ebook prices high.

  23. Holy frackin’ crap! I just got to the part where TNH banned Brad for 24 hours because he didn’t address her questions.

    Apparently, having a job, children or other responsibilities should always come in second after addressing the need of her Most High Pompousness.

  24. I was considering trying to go Worldcon next year as it is in Kansas City and only an eight hour drive from Denver. Then I went to the website and saw the The Haydens were to be guests of honor and receive a lifetime achievement award. I’d rather not pay to be sick in public.

    1. Achievement for what – acting as a gateway drug to harder stuff like giving credibility to lunatics who have nervous breakdowns on Twitter because WorldCon is a killing field of fat jokes and non-jazz hands clapping?

      “I’m not safe. Where’s my mummy and cats?”

    2. Go ahead and attend the con. Just skip the presentation. Events at the con are tailored toward the people who attend. If people like you don’t attend, then events won’t be tailored toward people like you.

  25. The set of all people who attend/support the WorldCon includes all people who buy supporting memberships.

    You know, what you buy so you can vote in the Hugos.

  26. And now, because TOLERANCE!, anyone who supports SP3 is being equated to the Reavers from Firefly/Serenity.

    The Reavers can be read as allegories for a lot of things (savage violent rebellion against oppression, the unintended consequences of governmental hubris, the inherently savage nature of mankind that lurks beneath the skin of civilization), but it’s very perceptive that the commenters on TNH’s blog to realize that they represented a snarky, non-violent campaign to broaden the diversity of views represented by one of SFF’s most revered awards.

    That must be why they are allowed to sit at the cool table.

    1. So in other words you’ve got the SJW Allliance cloaking themselves in browncoats – the better to hide their brown shirts – and calling the rebels of SF/F “Reavers” because we insist on misbehaving.

      Layers upon layers of hypocrisy. To the point of blasphemy, if you’re a Firefly fan…


  27. They don’t like this, which is a good reason to do it. This is being brought to you courtesy of Pfizer: One of the world’s premier biopharmaceutical companies and makers of Klonopin and Prozac. Also by Home Depot, the makers of doorknobs which enable you to go outside.

    1. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 10h10 hours ago James May, my evil Twin, posted a twitter conversation I had with @CoraBuhlert and @shaunduke

    2. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 10h10 hours ago @PrinceJvstin @CoraBuhlert also: someone who stalks people on Twitter to collect evidence has no business calling other people creepy.

    3. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 1h1 hour ago @shaunduke @PrinceJvstin I just wonder what he collects it for. Not even his supposed friends take his manifesto seriously.

    4. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 1h1 hour ago @CoraBuhlert @PrinceJvstin From what I can tell, he must keep some kind of catalogue.

    5. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 1h1 hour ago @shaunduke @PrinceJvstin It just seems like such a huge waste of time to stalk tweet streams and blogs of people he clearly hates.

    6. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 1h1 hour ago @CoraBuhlert @PrinceJvstin he’s only a couple steps removed from the “genocide against whites is real” crowd.

    7. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 1h1 hour ago @shaunduke He has noticed that @PrinceJvstin and me are white, has he? I mean it’s pretty obvious from my profile pic.

    8. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 1h1 hour ago @CoraBuhlert @PrinceJvstin I can speak to the logic of his argument because it doesn’t really make sense.

    9. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 56m56 minutes ago @shaunduke @CoraBuhlert I have not been able to make sense of it. This may be a failing on my part

    10. Scott Lynch ‏@scottlynch78 54m54 minutes ago @PrinceJvstin @shaunduke @CoraBuhlert Heh. No, Paul, the failing is not on your part.

    11. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 48m48 minutes ago @scottlynch78 @PrinceJvstin @CoraBuhlert definitely not your fault. The argument is incomprehensible.

    12. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 42m42 minutes ago @shaunduke @scottlynch78 @CoraBuhlert I thank the three of you for your support. I can be clueless sometimes (Scott knows this today, even)

    13. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 41m41 minutes ago @PrinceJvstin @scottlynch78 @CoraBuhlert you just need to take the DNE notice seriously. It helps with the blood pressure.

    14. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 37m37 minutes ago @shaunduke @PrinceJvstin @scottlynch78 I agree. It’s best to just ignore these people. Hi Scott BTW. Long time no see.


    1. So it’s creepy to have other people collect a person’s racist remarks. But it’s not creepy to share them with the world, have Twitter collect them, and make them available to your friends so that they can approve of how racist you are.

      Yeah… I’m thinking it’s not Mr. May who’s the creepy one here.

  28. I think, more than anything else, what this whole kerfuffle has taught me is that the Hugos don’t mean squat. Thankfully, the SF authors I prefer never won or, for the most part, were ever nominated. All they ever did was entertain people and sell books. Lots and lots of books. Losers.

  29. I feel strangely purified. Scrubbed clean. Scoured and then strengthened.

    Before, I just wanted my favorites to have a chance at winning.

    Now, I want everyone to see what’s being done by the fandom gatekeepers behind the curtain.

    (They sure ain’t working on a new heart, brain, courage, or a way back to Kansas.)

  30. So, I moused over to Wikipedia’s Hugo winners page. I’ve probably read nine out of ten of the winners and nominees… and of that, a majority are, if not crap, then noticeably weak efforts by their authors.

    I’ve never thought of a Hugo award or nomination as an indication of whether I’d like a book. Now I know why…

  31. From TNH on ML thread – about 75k words down from the start – the Panic-ening is palpable.

    “Third: the ballot itself. This grows out of wondering why so many Sad Puppies are suddenly out and about on forums they don’t normally frequent, belatedly spreading this new and not very believable line about how the whole Sad Puppy thing is motivated by love, rather than spite and resentment. They sure haven’t felt the need to spread this line before now. Neither have they put a lot of effort into hiding the spite and resentment.

    So why are they doing it now?

    When you’re nominated for a Hugo, you’re contacted ahead of time by the Hugo administrators, who check to make sure you’ll accept nomination. If they’re going to have to add the next-highest nominee in a category, they want to do it before the general public sees the ballot, so that no one knows who’s the lowest-ranked nominee.

    If the SPs got all or most of their slate onto the ballot, and those people had their nominations confirmed by the Hugo administrators, and they were comparing notes behind the scenes, they’d be uniquely able to reconstruct most or all of the final ballot.


    I think they’ve succeeded in f*cking up the ballot beyond all expectation, and they know the SF community is going to explode when we see it. Look at Brad Torgersen’s first comment in this thread. I couldn’t figure out what he was on about when he first posted it. Now I think it’s one big steaming pile of special pleading from start to finish, all of it intended to deflect fannish wrath when the ballot’s announced.

    I don’t like it, but it does fit all the known data. Wouldn’t it be nice if I turn out to be wrong?”

    So Brad reaching out and getting slapped was a ploy. Brad, you canny sonuvabitch.

    1. So they’ve basically been disingenuously ignoring the entire stated purpose of SP3 from the get-go, and now that it looks as if some of the slate might get on the ballot, they’re furiously doubling down on the “Hateful Meaniepants” narrative.

      I also love how he puts SP firmly outside the “SF community” by saying that “the SF community is going to explode when we see it.” Nice bit of inclusiveness and diversity…

      1. I noticed the implied insult that SP participants aren’t part of “SF Fandom” too, which I found frankly insulting. I can match con badge collections with the best of them.

        The thing is, I can remember a time when none of this would have mattered. If a group of fans had gotten together in the 1970s or 1980s with the express purpose of getting a slate of their favorites on the Hugo ballot, and then succeeded, the almost certain fan reaction would have been “Well good for them!”, followed by the inevitable “Maybe we should give that a try.” This much vitriol and fist shaking directed at them? No way. At most some old timer might grumble, but even he’d stand in line to get his book copy autographed.

        1. Wish they would get their lies straight:

          – It’s about oppressing women and minorities
          – It’s about getting Larry a Hugo
          – It was started by Vox Day

  32. Is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of certain comics fans whinging and whining about how the pretty gals wern’t “reeeeeal fans”?

  33. Right now, the only Tor author I’m reading is David Weber, and I’m doing that through library checkouts, since I already fund him every so often with purchases of his work at Baen.

    Had the Safehold books been Baen products, I’d have bought the ebooks a long time ago.

  34. You’re an inspiration, Mr. Correia.

    Thanks for doing what you do – proving that SF and F still sells and the reason sales are in the toilet in both genres is because the writers are more interested in staying in the clique and catering to a tiny amount of self-absorbed niche of vocal bloggers.

    You do not write “great” literature – you write popular literature, and you’ve gotten better and better at it (the improvement from MHI to Nemesis is clearly visible in the plotting and prose). You think about the reader, you care about what’d be interesting to read for the audience instead of self-important ideologues, and I’m glad you exist, because there are so little people doing that in fiction anymore.

    I want to thank you especially because you’ve demonstrated to me that the audience is not blind and that there is a real thirst for this kind of writing. SF and F has to their detriment tried to excise the fantasy and inherently genre nature of their work in the name of trying to cater to the loudest and most self-absorbed members of the group. You’ve shown that there is still a market for fantasy – real fantasy – and that it is possible to succeed on those merits, not because you wrote something that makes the social justice clique feel all warm and fuzzy.

    At the same time, because I still want to make it as a writer – I suppose I shouldn’t thank you all that much because you’re competition now.

    Keep on doing what you’re doing. I hope one day I’ll get to meet you in person and shake you warmly by the hand.

    1. Good. May TNH learn that the peril of running around screaming “Notice me, Senpai!” is that sometimes Senpai notices and isn’t amused.

  35. If Con-traflow ends up winning a Worldcon bid, I will make sure to throw an epic Sad Puppies room party.

  36. “The award-winning writing talent of Sam J. Miller and Samuel Delany will be featured at the New York Review of SF Readings on April 21. Sam J. Miller is a writer and a community organizer.” says File 770.

    Hahaha. Miller’s also the gay guy whose story which included teenagers having sex is nominated for a Nebula. Delany supports NAMBLA. Bring all your kids. There’ll be a Santa, lollipops and balloons.

    Here’s what Miller wrote on his own blog about his story:

    “SPOILER ALERT: homophobes hated ‘We Are The Cloud.’ Tangent complained of its ‘offensive imagery of underage homosexuality in gratuitous proportions,’ said it ‘needs to come with a warning.’

    “But it wasn’t just homophobes!

    “A bunch of people said it wasn’t really genre fiction, that ‘Science fiction elements are all but missing,’ or called out its ‘inattentive world-building,’ or said that it ‘doesn’t really work as a piece of traditional genre fiction as its future is dated, derivative and poorly realised’”

    In other words it’s classic Class A social justice “SFF” where being gay trumps the actual genre itself. Let me guess: statutory adult male on boy rape is “homophobia” too.

    “The incest taboo can be destroyed only by destroying the nuclear family as the primary institution of the culture. The nuclear family is the school of values in a sexist, sexually repressed society.” – feminist Andrea Dworkin

    “Children are fully capable of participating in community, and have every right to live out their own erotic impulses.” – Andrea Dworkin

    “Steven Gould @StevenGould · Oct 29 Do we really need more men explaining feminism to women? Do we need ANY? Go explain it to other men if you’re so inclined. #OrJustListen”

    “Study Finds Sexual Health Education Should Begin As Early As Age 10” – Feminist Newswire, Feminist Majority Foundation Blog

    “…gender is more complex than the Western cultural norm of two genders (female and male): that there are more genders than two, that gender can be fluid, that gender exists in many forms,” – Alex Dally MacFarlane at Tor “SF” blog.

    Make no mistake what it is gender-fluid, gender abolitionist feminists are selling or how useful their idiots are.

    1. If an author labeled a cismale member of the white patriarchy wrote a story which included depictions of underage lesbian sexual relations, or endorsed the North American Adult Male – Underage Girl Love Alliance, would that be cause for notice and approbation from our colleagues who post so often on Making Light?

      Would Mr. Glyer be comfortable with it?


  37. “…gender is more complex than the Western cultural norm of two genders (female and male): that there are more genders than two, that gender can be fluid, that gender exists in many forms,” – Alex Dally MacFarlane at Tor “SF” blog.

    Translated into sane: ‘I really, REALLY hate reality, and I refuse to acknowledge it.’

  38. That thread you linked didn’t seem so bad at first but now it is kinda disgusting.

    I am not even going to bother posting over there due to the fact that they lock the thread and edit comments.

    I have never once seen any SP say that they want the Hugo to be “Our” award. Just to be relevant to all of fandom.

  39. ‘I predict a backlash is about to wash over the Sad Puppies. And when it does, it’ll be interesting to see what happens next in our genre.” – Jason Sanford

    Oh, really? You mean SJWs can be even more racist and discriminatory towards straight white men? How will Sunil Patel at Lightspeed and Liz Bourke at Tor improve already not reviewing white men? Is Mary Robinette Kowal going to go after that last white guy she mentioned last year? “…only one award went to a white male and that wasn’t one of the ones voted on by the membership.” Well, better get to work; there’s still a white guy in your soup.

    Will K. Tempest Bradford up her year-long probation of reading straight white men to a 10 year sentence? Will WisCon expand their segregated room to a whole floor? Will N. K. Jemisin declare SFF fandom is even more “racist as fuck” than racist as fuck?

    Will Ann Leckie change her gender-zombie so it can’t see men at all? Will Kate Elliott and Kameron Hurley put even more gay characters in their cutting edge fiction?

    Mikki Kendall’s already at around 165,000 Tweets, much of it about insane white racists. Will she double her output for the cause?

    Backlash? What the hell’s the last 4 years been? Listen, there’s only so many hours in the day. There’s probably literally 10,000 anti-white, anti-male, anti-heterosexual Tweets in the last year alone from the 100 worst SJWs in SFF. How the hell are they going to improve on that? Go at it, fools. The more you’re blogging and on Twitter complaining about white men the less you’re writing your incredible sophomoric conformist dreck revenge fiction assassinating or running away from white men straight out of a Clarion Writer’s Workshop.

    1. It’s like the criminal who’s going ‘SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!’ as they’re hurting other people deliberately.

      It’s not THEIR fault that they’re hurting other people, and of COURSE they expect there to be some backlash because the natural order of things (as they see it) is being disturbed.

      Cockroaches never like it when the light comes on, after all. There’s gonna be a backlash for being exposed as racist and discriminatory, all right. But it won’t be going in the direction THEY expect.

  40. So over on Brad Torgeren’s latest blog, one Chris Gerrib had this to say.

    “Brad: as one of the people writing a proposal to “stop” the Sad Puppies, let me tell you why. The value of the Hugo is the integrity of the voters, and the idea that they are voting for what they think is the best. The worst thing that could happen to the Hugos is the perception</b? that to get one you need to know the right people and get on the right slate. If that happens, the Hugos become no more important than who won the election for dogcatcher."

    So all you people who decided to participate and vote for what you think is best, your integrity is in question.

    1. I remember when Chris used to haunt my LJ and that of several friends (not unlike Clamps). While his arguments were no better than those of Clamps, at least he never threatened anybody.
      Still, we’d all hoped that maybe he’d managed to get a clue, but apparently the clue god has still not paid him a visit.

      1. Gerrib is a demonstrated liar. I’ve proven it on three different blogs, including his. He also seems to think that he’s much more “in” than he actually is.

        1. Yeah, there is that.
          BTW, does he still think he’s going to be a great author? I’m kind of curious if he ever published anything, wanted to see if he could write, and just -what- he would write.

          He reminds me of someone I once knew in the USAF, and who I grew to despise because of their actions. Which probably isn’t fair, but he always seemed to act so much like that person, that it was hard not to equate him to them.

          1. He has a novel, Pirates of Mars, that was published by what appears to be a small press called Haldey Rille Books.

            The flesh and blood Chris is much more likable than the online version and doesn’t seem so inclined to call people liars.

          2. Nathan,

            That may very well be true. I myself try very hard (and hope that I’ve gotten better over the years) to be at least passingly polite online.
            However I have been known to be a total obnoxious a$$ to people in face to face situations when I got tired of their BS. So no one can say I’m any worse online than in person, though perhaps I’ve mellowed some with age?

            As for his book, I actually went and did look it up. 5.99 is way to high a price for an unknown author on kindle however. He should lower that to 2.99, and probably get an editor to look at it. And maybe a different cover.
            The look inside seemed okay, nothing great, but nothing bad, and the reviews made it seem like it had promise. With a little work, a lower price, and some advertising I think it could sell a lot better than it is. Rather surprised he hasn’t put anything else out since then. Maybe the whole writing thing did not turn out to be something he enjoyed after all.

  41. Larry, took your advise and went over to Teresa’s site. Now that my nose has finally stopped bleeding and my IQ has returned back to to the land of triple digits let me just say; “Dang it Larry, that needs some kind of warning and disclaimer before you do that crap!”



  42. Semi- on topic: I have been trying to locate something that I am fairly certain I saw on Instapundit sometime from 2005-2007; it was an item about some “progressives” meeting and discussing what they saw as a libertarian bent in sci-fi. I’ve been trying to find it ever since I heard about the Sad Puppies, wondering who these people were and what connection it might have had to the current situation.

    I haven’t been able to find it yet, but I did find something that seems to demonstrate that *something* happened over the last decade. Check out this essay by Eric S. Raymond; it was written in 2002. Note especially his conclusions about the nature of SF, and in particular his predictions about the attempts to change that.

    *Something* happened after he wrote that. It might be useful to figure out what it was, and who drove it – and how.

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