HK. Because you suck. And we hate you.

An open letter to the gun community from HK’s marketing department: In a world of compromises, some people put the bullets in the magazine backwards…But it doesn’t matter, because our gun is on the cover of the Rainbow Six video games. Look how cool that SEAL coming out of the water looks… If you buy a $2,000 SOCOM, you will be that cool of an operator too. And chicks will dig you.

At HK, we stuck a piston on an AR15, just like a bunch of other companies have done, dating back to about 1969. However ours is better, because we refuse to sell it to civilians. Because you suck, and we hate you.

Our XM8 is the greatest rifle ever developed. It may melt, and it doesn’t fit any accessories known to man, but that is your fault. If you were a real operator, you would love it. Once again, look at Rainbow Six, that G36 sure is cool isn’t it? Yeah, you know you want one.And by the way, check out our new HK45. We decided that humans don’t need to release the magazine with their thumbs. If you were a really manly teutonic operator, you would be able to reach the controls. Plus we’ve fired 100,000,000 rounds through one with zero malfunctions, and that was while it was buried in a lake of molten lava, on the moon. If you don’t believe us, it is because you aren’t a real operator.

By the way, our cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns like the G3 and MP5 are the bestest things ever, and totally worth asinine scalpers prices, but note that cheap, mass-produced, stamped sheet metal guns from other countries are commie garbage. Not that it matters, because you’re civilians, so we won’t sell them to you anyway. Because you suck, and we hate you, but we know you’ll be back. We can beat you down like a trailer park wife, but you’ll come back, you always do.

Buy our stuff.


HK Marketing DepartmentHK.  Because you suck.  And we hate you. 

I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m not the biggest fan of H und K.  I posted that letter on THR a long time ago as a joke, but it sure did manage to tick a lot of people off.  Ironically, the tag line, HK.  Because you suck.  And we hate you, has been popping up in various places ever since. 

Sure, they’re decently reliable, decently accurate guns, but they’re massively overpriced and overrated by legions of fan boys.  One of the most frustrating things about dealing with gun people on the interweb is that folks tend to pick a brand, and then base some of their self-esteem on that brand.  Kind of like rabid sports fans who feel the need to burn cars if their team wins, or loses, or they just felt like burning stuff.   Say something negative about that team to one of those rabid fans, and you’re probably going to get beat up.  Likewise, if you say anything negative about the Teutonic superiority of HK, people get mad at you. 

Well, I love hate mail, so here goes. 

For each of their wunder guns, you can get something else that costs a lot less, and works better, and has ergonomics designed by people that actually shoot.   HK came about when some Nazis fled to Spain and built the Cetme.  But Cetme doesn’t sound very tough, does it?  So they went back to Germany and became H and K, and if you call it H and K, fan boys will get mad, and insist that it is HK, because manly Teutonic operators and Navy SEALs don’t have time to say the word And.  So HK rose to prominence by building the G3, which is what the Germans call the Cetme.

Now the G3 is a decent rifle.  It is a cheap, stamped sheet metal, battle rifle.  It has terrible ergonomics, with a hard to use safety, (and this is coming from a guy with gorilla hands), and difficult to use charging handle.  It is reliable, because of the roller locking bolt that destroys your brass, and recoils worse than other competing .308 rifles.  The FAL smokes the G3, and the only reason the G3 exists is because the Germans were too proud to pay royalties to those uppity Belgians. 

The G3 can be really accurate, if you weld a bunch of metal to the sides of it, stick on a nice barrel, and jack the price up $10,000.  And no, that’s not a typo.  The PSG1 is absurdly priced, and the cheaper version, the MSG90 is proof that if make anything absurdly heavy enough, it can be accurate. 

There is a collapsible stock available, which is awesome, if you like getting hit in the face with a piece of rebar, which is what their $400 stock feels like when you shoot it.  Germans must be tougher than we are or something.

Other stamped, sheet metal guns exist, but HK fan boys mock those as commie garbage.  See, if you build a cheap gun, but it is from Germany, then it is superior, but if you build a stamped gun in the eastern block (a hundred miles from Germany) then it is commie garbage. 

But what brought HK to international fame and the cover of Dick Marcinko books (for example, Rogue Force Delta Green Team 7 Ninja Force Alpha II:  The beginning)  was the G3s little brother, the MP5.  Take a G3, shrink it, and chamber it in 9mm.  At the time, CQB doctrine was to use 9mm subguns.  Now the MP5 is a neat little gun.  I have two.  They work well, and if compared to the other subguns of the day, like the Uzi or the Mac, then the MP5 was a lot easier to use, easier to hit with, and was decently reliable. 

The MP5 became famous when the SAS used them to kick the living hell out of some bad guys at the Iranian embassy.  This was marketing gold, and HK rode the wave.  Pretty soon everybody wanted an MP5.  It was what all the cool kids were using.  Soon every video game and action movie was filled with HK stuff.  HK may have overrated guns, but they’ve got the best marketing department in the gun business, and they milked that fee cow until it was dry. 

But the MP5 isn’t as great as people make them out to be.  They still malfunction.  (if you’re favorite gun hasn’t malfed, you haven’t shot it enough).  The mags are hard to insert on a closed bolt.  Safety still sucks.  Most versions don’t have a bolt hold open.  Honestly, if I had to get into a gunfight with a subgun, then I would rather have my PPsH. 

HK long guns were mostly unobtainable to US civilians, primarily because HK hates the civilian market.  If you don’t believe me, go talk to them at SHOT show, and watch them sneer at regular people.  They can’t help themselves.   But like all unobtainable things, like Ferraris, and super models, regular folks start to imagine these unobtainable things as perfection, when really they’re just an expensive car that spends most of its time in the shop, or a chick with mental problems and Bulimia.  That’s what happened with HK.  Their products took on this aura of coolness amongst the fans, that just isn’t real. 

For example, go to any thread on the internet where somebody brings up “What is the Best Rifle EVAR!”  and there is a poll.  On the poll will be some HK long guns that 99.85% of the gun owning public has never seen, let alone shot, but those guns will have the most votes, because the HK marketing department told you how awesome they are. 

Read up about the XM8 on most gun boards.  According to the interweb, the XM8 is the finest combat implement of all time.  In actuality it is a plastic AR18, that tends to melt, break, and is universally loathed by the Army staff that had to test it.  It takes bizarre attachments, so no US accessories will work.  They took the G36, which is basically a blah rifle, used by a handful of countries that don’t ever actually shoot people, and uglied it up so that it looks like the demented lovechild of Bloaty the Pizza Hog and a Super-Soaker.

Or the HK416. According to the internet, the HK416 is the best gun EVER!  It is called THE AWESOME.  Lightning bolts of coolness fly from the gun and smite your enemies with Teutonic fury!  However you can’t have one, because you’re a civilian, ergo, you suck.  And HK hates you.

The 416 is basically an AR with a gas piston, which has been done by like ten companies now, but somehow the HK is better, because it was on Future Weapons, and HK won’t sell it to civilians.  In fact, a couple of 416s slipped out into civilian hands, and HK freaked out about it.  There is no legal reason that 416 uppers can’t be sold, but HK despises regular people, and the idea of you having their long guns offends them.

You can get civilian HK long guns, once in a while, when HK feels like it, but they’re usually hyper-neutered and over priced.  Hell, the last ones were actually grey, because you know, black is too dangerous, or something.

HK’s new subgun is the UMP.  They tend to break.  One of our local PDs traded all of theirs in after they broke all the stocks.  Cool idea, because everybody loves .45, but bad execution.

HK’s flagship pistols, the USP line, are decent polymer handguns.  They are extremely reliable, that is the plus side.  On the down side, their triggers universally suck, but they don’t have to.  HK likes to use a square peg in a round hole, (literally) that makes the trigger pull a lot heavier and grittier than it needs to be.  Why?  Beats the heck out of me.  The USP series should be reliable, they’re enormous. 

The most annoying thing about the HK pistols is how they cost almost twice as much as every other polymer handgun on the market.  Somehow being made in Germany means the USP series is worth $800-$1000, when all of the polymer guns made within a thousand miles are $400-$600.  Only most of those guns tend to have better triggers, are just as reliable, and are usually more accurate.

Then there is the Mk23.  Which is huge, accurate, reliable, (which it damn well better be, since it is the size and weight of a Mini-14) costs as much as a used car, huge, and is universally despised by the SF that it is issued to.  Talk to anyone that is in an SF unit.  The Mk23s they’ve been issued sit unused in arms room.  Did I mention that it is HUGE?  But that’s okay, because the HK fan boys will explain that it is an OFFENSIVE handgun.   (scratches head) whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.  

They are reliable, but so is a $125 Makarov.  Only the Mak has a better trigger.

I have two guys that I work with that have been to the HK armorer’s school.  If you think I’m biased, you should talk to them.  They especially love working with the Germans.  One fellow was yelled at because he had two magazines clamped together on his MP5, because “NEIN!  That is not the H und K way!”  Even though he had bought the mag clamp from HK.  When you ask why the original MP5 doesn’t have a last shot bolt hold open, they’ll yell at you and say, “NEIN! Why would you want your enemy to know your gun is empty!”  Hell, Hans, I just want to know when my gun is empty!

One friend of mine took his personal MP5, and cut an extra notch into the collapsible stock, so it would be shorter for when he was wearing his armor, and also it removed the nasty wobble that all HK collapsible stocks have.  It is an easy fix, and a no-brainer that the HK should have been doing for years.  Fritz at the armorer’s school damn near had an aneurism when he saw this blasphemy against his ineffectual German gods.  

Look, gun owning public, just because you saw it on Future Weapons, or read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it true.  For the love of John Moses Browning, before you formulate super strong opinions about a weapon, you should have at least shot the damn thing first.

 Do I have anything positive to say about HK?  Yes, the sneer of disdain they give you at SHOT is priceless and entertaining.

Edit: My book, Monster Hunter International, is available now on Amazon.

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446 thoughts on “HK. Because you suck. And we hate you.”

  1. I could be wrong but I believe when the Germans approached the Belgians about licensing the FAL the Belgians thumbed their noses at the Krauts, gave them the Hawaiian good luck sign and sent them packing. Something to do with an invasion in 1914 and AGAIN in 1940. I owned a CETME for a short time and was truly underwhelmed, dumped it and bought another FAL. Can’t have too many of those, can you?

    1. LOL, I was on the floor laughing reading thru all of this. Mainly because it’s mostly true! HAHA

      Although after reading it all I kinda feel bad that I like H&K at all 😀

      I have actually shot a G36K (full auto and semi) and very much enjoyed it. I liked the optics they used on it, and was reasonably accurate with it despite my inexperience with such firearms.
      If I could have I probably would’ve bought a civilian version on the spot right there… but HAHA sucks to be me, those are illegal!

      However, I may be biased since that’s the only full auto rifle I’ve ever shot so I have nothing to compare it to.

      The only guns I do own are a Sig556, which I got because hey… H&K doesn’t sell to civi’s (The Swiss seem to be way more lax with their firearms than the Teutonic Knights of coolness) and a Springfield 1911A1.

      lol this was a great read i laughed my ass off!

  2. You forgot that Jack Bauer uses a USP. Seriously, I understand your point – I feel that way about BMWs. But I do like my H&K handguns, so it’s probably good that I’ve never had to deal with Hans and Franz at the SHOT show.

    1. I also own an HK, P30
      l love it, it is the best weapon I have ever shot for low recoil, accuracy, ergonomics in the hand, etc.

  3. Well if you hate HK’s, what do you love?

    I have zero experience with any HK product so I couldn’t say yay or nay about them.

  4. FNH, Browning, SIG, Kimber, STI, Glock even (cough), Springfield, S&W… Hell, even the poly framed Baby Eagles are better handguns that the HKs. I reviewed one of the new P2000 pistols and while it was about 200 more than most other pistols of the class, it was only average. I used the phrase Perfectly Adequate and HK flipped out.
    HK spends too much time posing for video game covers.

    1. One has to wonder if anyone making comment detriment of the HK, Particularly the MP5 – MP5/10 has ever had to actually put their lives on the line with one. Some guns, as with HK are actually made just for military or police service, so wailing about HK´s policies of not selling to civilians is irrelevant and much of the reason for such negative response to HK weapons. This in light means that the negative comments have no factual basis other than sour grapes. For those of us who never used these in civilian life, but used them in service of protection of civilians for 25 years +, I can only say how wrong you guys are. We have had the greatest array of weaponry available to us, and yet we always chose the MP5 – MP5/10 as our weapon of choice at CQB. There is a reason why we chose this weapon in particular, being reliability, functionality, hitting power, and surround concideration. Modifications over past years to the MP5 including chambering 10mm was just one concidersation in form for military and law enforcement agencies. Surprisingly, this did not make handling of the weapon any different but did make a big difference to the recipient. A promise fullfilled, so no complaints about HK service there. For those that want to complain about pricing, there is another old addage. That which is cheap is seldom good and that which is good is seldom cheap. HK come under this. Its good that the price is too high for the majority of civilians. This is the servicemans protection. Thank you HK for valuing the intended for use from those that could become deadlier to us if having your weaponry. Another HK service value. Not every weapon was made for civilian use, and therefore, no civilian is either competant or reliable in source evaluation. This in particular relates to people like correia45 blogging about guns that in actuality, he has never fired in anger, or had fired back at him. As for the comparrison of HK USP and SIG sidearms…..The USP is the man in the knows weapon of choice. And better still, and personal preference is the old favourite browning 9mm highpower. Who ever said shooting firearms should be comfortable. They were not designed for soft c**ks…but for men with a distasteful job to do. Never heard an operator complain about his gun kicks too much. About to crack up laughing here lol Didnt mothers ever teach you ¨If it hurts, dont do it.¨ Leave guns for those that intend to use them for what purpose they were designed and let them say what is best. Hk actually spends too much time in developement and customer service to those that matter rather than pandering to the light hearted civilian wannabe´s. There is far more to gun concideration than what is read from books. It all boils down to what keeps you alive in the field. For that, nothing compares to HK in the anti terrorism field. A big thank you to HK from those its services and supplies have kept alive. An even bigger thank you from those civilians that are alive today due to their supperb performance. Who cares what you shoot targets with lol.

      1. A loyal acolyte of the cult of hk let me sum up it up “i am a superiorly manly teutonic man you are are a civilian and therefore suck and i hate you”

      2. Rick- there is no reason that civillians should not be able to own semi-auto firearms. The fact that they make this distinction lends one to agree that they beleive they are superior.

      3. The mere fact that police refer to the general public and citizens as “civilians” is a real problem as they themselves are, in fact, civilians. Cops do not get to be the military, at least not in the USA. It sure doesn’t seem to stop them from thinking they are. Police should *NEVER* have access to weaponry that us “civilians” do not also have access to. Otherwise, the entire principle of not permitting military dominion over domestic issues is violated by allowing the police to become a military force. The police were never intended to be able to be any “deadlier” than any other “civilian” which is why you all get to be classified as civilians just like the rest of us.

      4. Not a big proponent of the 2nd amendment are you there chief? The founding fathers would be rolling in their graves at your comment

      5. I’m going to guess that English is not your primary language, suggested by a number of gaffs made, namely ‘surround consideration.’

        Truly, anyone shooting an MP5 already knows that 9mm will more than readily over penetrate the human body, posing a material threat to innocents and unintended targets downrange. Thus your purported argument to HKs claim of “valuing the intended for use from those that could become deadlier to us if having your weaponry” is utterly destroyed. Had you ever fired a weapon as you purportedly claimed you would have realized this distinction. If what you had claimed been true, HK wouldn’t be a leading contender in firearms used by genocidal world powers the world over, following the AK.

        Had you meant ‘sound suppression,’ well, the super sonic crack accompanying the 9mm is much more easily moderated on a .45 caliber platform, of which the Vector KRISS is the single most outstanding piece of innovation since the Hi-Power.

        Yet we always chose the MP5 – MP5/10 as our weapon of choice at CQB.

        Again, outmoded information, as your purported service life suggests barring the more recent innovations and improvements recently seen in the weapons field, and the training and logistics field. The proof of these invalidations are inherent to modern HK design, see the MP7, a hybridization of the UZI platform and the armor penetration properties of the 5.56 and 5.7 wrapped around their famed roller-lock design. Both prime the UZI and 5.7 FN platforms are notable their for concealability and Kevlar armor penetration. Your statements in support of the MP5 merely point to the age old misconceptions of militaries the world over of ‘preparing to fight yesterdays wars.’

        Its good that the price is too high for the majority of civilians. This is the servicemans protection.

        When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. The Jews of NAZI Germany depended upon the protection of Hitler’s police, it failed them egregiously. The majority of deaths in the 20th and 21st century, some 250 million lives, died at the hands of their own government. History teaches us that wolves always wear the sheep’s clothing, and thus neither the government nor the police are ever to be trusted of infallibility.

        Not every weapon was made for civilian use, and therefore, no civilian is either competant or reliable in source evaluation.

        Again, you fail to realize that every soldier that fields a rifle, mans an artillery battery, or police that pulls a pistol, are all citizens and civilians when out of uniform. They do not drive tanks home, do not put their machine-guns and grenades in the closet. Your ‘soldiers and police’ are only such when their are duly uniformed and employed, and responsibly armed. Thus your very definition of them is inherently no different than that of a mercenary nor a sovereign citizen. You also fail to realize that training, truly the only thing that defines the average citizen from the competent professional, is readily had, especially in the US. You also fail to realize the outmoding of the traditional warrior, artillery, drone tanks, UAVs, controllable by an Xbox controller. 5 yr-olds explicitly understand how to use a controller, further marginalizing your vaunted warrior caste.

        This in particular relates to people like correia45 blogging about guns that in actuality, he has never fired in anger, or had fired back at him.

        Considering firing in anger is rife with problems, such as loss of mental acuity, loss of awareness, failing to fulfill the legal requirements for use of deadly force, your statement in itself indicts your purported usage and background. Then, should your statement refer to usage under duress that one becomes a big slobbering idiot incapable of fine motor control, well, anything an trained idiot can do an untrained civilian is easily capable of figuring out. Plus, if big fat fingers are needed to manipulate big fat controls, your argument again fails as of necessity the reverse is equally true. Lastly, impugning the author’s credibility, especially when proving none yourself, while low, hardly accredits your accusation. Such as… Tom Clancy.

        The USP is the man in the knows weapon of choice. And better still, and personal preference is the old favourite Browning 9mm High Power.

        Sorry, pistol technology essentially reached it’s pinnacle in the Hi-Power, and the only real reason it’s not offered is because of licensing rights and profit margins.

        Who ever said shooting firearms should be comfortable. They were not designed for soft c**ks…but for men with a distasteful job to do. Never heard an operator complain about his gun kicks too much.

        More suggestions that lend itself to impugning your self-purported history. Comfort leads to ease of use, then to familiarity, to dexterity, to increased efficiency, and finally lethality. The designs of all the worlds invents all lend themselves to a few primal truths, form follows function, and the customer is the primary consideration. If the customer can’t shoot it, can’t shoulder it, or otherwise destroys themselves in the process of using it, that company will never stay in business long.

        For that, nothing compares to HK in the anti-terrorism field.

        Unfortunately for your argument, HK doesn’t do anti-terrorism, the Bundesgrenzschutz, now the Bundespolizei, do, who in and of themselves have some very prominent failures, which can only point out that tools are tools and thus replaceable and interchangeable, it is the men who do the job that are the real weapon.

        In short, your arguments are all based upon specious logic and outmoded information. You would do well to invest in the time to research more pertinent developments, such as the author has done and is paid to do, than depending upon what are essentially old-wives tales to bulwark your chosen profession and branded line.

        Have a nice day, Hanz Rickman.

        1. Hilarious waste of time – was there a point somewhere in all that desperate grasping? How long will you continue to look stupid by arguing that you know more than Seal Team Six or their colleagues? And multiple aliases aren’t helping support your premise either,.. “Hanz”

      6. @Logic Bomb since it seems impossible to point out your failures under normal protocols.

        Triple fail, and here’s how:

        First, as the name is in the same line as the statement, following a comma, the name is clearly addressing another, instead of a statement of authorship. It is not a signature, which would be redundant considering the tagging of all posts with one’s name at the header. Had it been a statement of authorship, there instead would have been a period and a separate line for the name.

        You have failed at the English language of a mere 4th-grade level, basic internet, and basic logic.

        Second, because you failed to realize this simple truth, you presume that I am signing my own name, instead of the play on words it logically is since the person to whom the response is penned is self-named ‘Rick,’ not a ‘Hanz Rickman.’ In failing that, you cannot grasp at the layered meaning behind such appellation.

        Again, you’ve failed at English, of an 9th-grade level.

        Third, a simple Google search, which should be done upon any name provided since only uni-bombers and school shooters are without an internet presence on FB or the like, on the interesting appellation ‘Hanz Rickman,’ would very quickly reference a ‘Hanz Gruber,’ a feverish German narcissist played by a young Alan Rickman in Die Hard. Comparisons betwixt the two are then easily made, thus revealing the fully the play on words for what they were.

        Thus, you fail at at American pop culture, and your Google-fu is mediocre.


        Look stupid by arguing that you know more than Seal Team Six or their colleagues.

        This of course presumes that either you, or Rick, in fact have said knowledge. Which you neither support Rick’s two to three decades at-best outmoded information, himself claiming at best police work – hardly comparable with the special operations community, nor present your own for verification. The march of history and technology has a simple lesson, those stuck in the past become grist for the future. Since you have not even a formulated opinion to present, nor the wherewithal to attempt to rebut mine, it can only be stated that you have neither the capability nor the knowledge necessary to do so, and thus have no basis upon which to proffer a valid opinion.

        As you are clearly unaware:

        SEAL Team 6 was dissolved in 1987. The Navy then established the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, also known as DEVGRU. While DEVGRU is administratively supported by Naval Special Warfare Command, they are operationally under the command of the Joint Special Operations Command.
        – from Wikipedia

        Also, if your concern was DEVGRU use of H und K weaponry, the conflicting reports regarding their usage is in and of itself interesting, but what was always obvious to me is the desire for a 15 bullet stack of .45 ACP. Clearly, the concern isn’t about platform, but about stopping power, something you’ve also failed to grasp, especially at word the USMC has sought to return to the M1911.

        Have a nice day, grasshopper.

        1. Your point is made but Goddamn quit being a grammar Nazi. If you like English then go teach middle school English. Leave the JSOC to the operators. Hk makes some of the best quality firearms for what we do. Did I accidentally misplace a comma? Oh, and were fucking JSOC along with SO paramilitary officers from DoD. Also, when we drop a JDAM and innocent civs die, what do you think “valuing the intended for use from those that could become deadlier to us if having your weaponry,” really is?

        2. An HK was the last thing Osama bin Laden ever saw. Your narrative is as about useless as the English lit. degree you received. Not much money there, huh? You call can call me a-hole (hear it every day), a no-nothing (rarely hear that), or even a greedy-criminal bastard (heard that daily) in 2007. However, unlike yourself my major didn’t require classes in Dean Koontz theory (a huge HK fan by the way). As a trader for Merrill Lynch (mucho dinero) grammar mean’s $hit. Stick to your 30K a year elementary school teaching job. Just a suggestion, good day!

          1. Heh.

            He he he.



            Oh shit. Wait. You’re serious? 😀

          2. Oh shit, I just saw this! Was he actually serious? It takes a special kind of stupid to make a comment like that.

      7. What K&K is doing (b/c they still have the market domination to do it!) is precisely what Colt did throughout much of the 1980’s/1990’s and early into the last decade. They made plenty from LE/Govt. sales that they stopped giving a shit about their civvy market. The AA 2000 and Double Eagle .45 are proof of that. The mistake that the krauts have yet to make is to let their QC slip like Colt did, though with their pricing and customer service being even worse than Colt’s BITD.

      8. You are a clown, Fritz, other small arms will kill a person just as dead as an hk. To say civilians don’t deserve it just proves the point. Maybe yout authoritarian view of the 2a would be better suited in the 3rd reich.

      9. Except that the HK MP-5/10 in 10mm are notorious for breakage. The fault is always yours, and you did not have the right angle bolt/break/parts installed.nd even if you did, we hate you, so shut up.

  5. Really, what I personally love is irrelevant. I know exactly what fits me, and I shoot well. That doesn’t mean that it is the perfect gun for everybody, just for me.

    In my case, I love 1911s. My favorite 1911s are from STI.

    Because of teaching, I’ve got to try every gun out there, and I’m actually proficient with most of them. But no matter what, I always gravitiate back toward the 1911.

    MadOgre, that was a great article. Hey, are you going to SHOT this year? Maybe we can go over to the HK booth together and get sneered at. 🙂

  6. I love my HK. The reason I got it is so I don’t have to clean it, and it still works well. Except for that time when I had to change the spring to a 24# spring. Now I don’t have to ever change the spring again.

    If you know how I shoot, I abuse my guns. I’m not supposed to have nice guns but all other guns have malfunctioned on me more than once. I think I can jam any gun and so far I’ve jammed everyone that I’ve touched.

    HK Rules, but they still hate me.

    1. if you dont clean your gun you are damn right it will malfunction, its a tool like a blade, you have to clean it to keep it honed to its purpose

  7. I love my HK. The reason I got it is so I don’t have to clean it, and it still works well. Except for that time when I had to change the spring to a 24# spring. Now I don’t have to ever change the spring again.

    If you know how I shoot, I abuse my guns. I’m not supposed to have nice guns but all other guns have malfunctioned on me more than once. I think I can jam any gun and so far I’ve jammed everyone that I’ve touched.

    HK Rules, but they still hate me and I still suck.

  8. Sorry, I’m laughing too hard to post anything serious…

    Well, I’ll try – Don’t forget the MP7 “PDW” that shoots hyper-velocity grains of rice that travel for 16 miles like a laser beam with 0 drop. It is the only weapon that SuperMan fears as it can penetrate any armor in the known universe.

    1. it’s certainly useful for making pin holes in soft armor at 300 yds.
      perhaps they’ll release a pistol version like the Five-seveN, at there usually laughable prices

  9. “just because you saw it on Future Weapons… doesn’t make it true.”
    It wasn’t just seen on Future Weapons. It was *whispered* about.

  10. I agree that the price of HKs are generally way too much, and the attitude of the company sucks, but I LOVE the mag release. The only other gun that has a similar release (that I have found anyway) is the Walther P99. My thumb can’t reach on a lot of “normal” guns, but my trigger finger works great with the release on HKs and Walthers.

    Otherwise, I agree with you on pretty much everything about HK, nice article.

  11. See, now this puts me in a little bind…

    Spoon has told me that I can buy myself ANY full-auto that I can afford (which will be awhile). The only problem is, I have to buy her an MP-5 first. She shot one at a fund-raiser in Milwaukee, and that just clinched it. I TRIED steering her twords a (much cheaper) mini-Uzi, but she’s balking…

    Any advice?

    1. This is really sad. Mini-Uzis are pretty good, just insane bullet hoses.

      I bet you are split up or married, but she still has that freaking gun.

  12. I agree 100%. I am a slow learner, so I have bought 3 different HK’s and was never all that happy with any of them. In the case of two of them (an SP 89 and a USC), I was able to sell them for more than I paid, so I am happy that there are others that like them.

    I’ll admit that some of their newer handguns look nice, but there are so many other products out there from companies that are willing to sell us “assault” rifles.

  13. I once had a USP9 but then I realized my hands would never be big enough for it. The only H&K guns I seem to like are the P7’s but they have the added benefit that after you fire 50 rounds medium speed you can cook a steak on the dust cover.

  14. Yes, I’m planning on collecting my due Sneerage at SHOT. I don’t feel right if I don’t get it. The HK Sneer is almost as rarified as the sneers I get from Glock.

  15. The MP-5 is a good gun for shooting small dogs, women and children. It is fun to shoot and uses the less lethal 9mm round. I can see why chicks dig it.

  16. I purchased an SL7 back in 84 for about $300. Thanks to the H und K frenzy I will be selling it this weekend for $1200.
    Got to love those marketing guys!
    How about the tyrigger pull on my old VP70z. I remeber it weighing in at about 18 lbs.

  17. H&K weapons are generally on my “If I were a millionaire” shopping list. I own a CETME, and I actually love it (probably cause I don’t reload–it does fuck up the brass pretty good, especially commercial .308 brass), and I’ve fired the USP and USP compact, and liked the full sized one (probably cause I’m 6’6″ and my hands are large). They make good weapons, but not worth the price at all. Though I would love to have an MP5 in 10mm. Say what you will about H&K, that’d be fucking awesome.

  18. i have 1 hk left , a p2k-40sw…
    you are soooo right-on about the attitude …
    the p2k does seem to be flawless , and i like the mag release (somehow it just works for me )…
    my 91 didn’t seem to be any worse recoil wise than my fal or m1a , at least not enough that i ever noticed…
    i prefer the AK series to all of them…
    i’ll stay with the p2k cause it works , and i don’t have to baby it or worry about it , unlike the 1911’s and glocks and smiths i’ve owned…
    are they the best at everything ?
    hell , no … the russki stuff is currently way more reliable (ymmv) and trouble-free in the longguns …
    is hk really worth all the effort it took to type that snark ?

  19. Wonderful rant.

    I love my USP. I bought it slightly used when they were first new – when H&K was desperate to break into the US civilian market as the German merger savaged their arms sales.

    It was a different time. The US civilian market was the only place where they could be saved… And they were very interested in our business.

    But I can buy a Glock with 5 mags for almost what 5 mags for the H&K cost now.

    Tis a shame, I still think the USP is the best, straight out of the box gun I’ve ever shot or held. But it’s the last H&K I’m going to be buying.

  20. The best way to buy an HK is used. Back in the day I bought 2 SS USP’s with some gear for $1400. Sold the gear for 300 and sold one of the USP’s for 800. So, for the USP that I have, plus the 8 extra mags the guy gave me, I was only out about $300.

    Then there was the time that Sportsman’s had a USP Lefty on sale for $525. Picked that up and sold it for $700.

    I think paying $700+ for a gun is normal since it seams that all my guns cost more than that. I felt I was slumming it when I bought an XD because it cost so little.

    So the point is, if you get people to start paying lots for a gun to begin with, they’ll have no problem doing it in the future.

  21. I once had the pleasure of firing my friend’s $3000 scoped G3. The rolling block mechanism may be utterly reliable, but the only thing stopping that bolt at the end of its travel is apparently your shoulder when it slams into it! We were shooting at the leftmost rifle lane but when we were done, we found mangled brass in the berm to the right of the rightmost lane! Of course, if you’re shooting commie invaders as fast as you can, utter reliability may be more at the forefront of your mind than reloading or where your brass ends up.

    I don’t own and HK products and am not planning on ownying any HK products.

  22. Man, I’ve re-read this about ten times today, because it is so true. There’s a chick I work with who’s in love with her USP; when I ask her what her USP has over my Glock, she’s unable to give me a rational answer. But it’s an H&K — it must be better. . . .

  23. I sold my full-size USP .45. It was just too huge. I’m getting close to buying a #2 Captains of Crush gripper, but trying to reach the thumb safety on that monster just plain defeated me.

    It was a neato gun and all, but it wasn’t working for me.

  24. Someone asked what does an HK have over a Glock?

    Slighly less horrid ergonomics? Hee hee.

    Those Teutons must have large, square hands, or perhaps an extra nuckle on each finger, allowing them to form their hands into a perfect box shape.

  25. When I read things like this I always think that the writer is just pissy he can’t have the gun he wants or can’t afford it.

    I’ll use the 416 for example. I REALLY want one. I’m a big HK fan but at the same time I’m not all pissy about not being able to have one. HK doesn’t want my money? Screw them, I’ll go buy an LWRC. Same type of gun, same reliability and LWRC wants my money and wants to give me good customer service.

    HK’s loss but no reason to get pissy.

  26. kdogg, I own a machine gun store. Affording an HK isn’t really the issue. I could restate why I think HK blows, but I would have to repeat the 2,000 words at the beginning of this thing.

    And pissy is entertaining. 🙂

  27. Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.

      1. Oh, and before anybody accuses me of being a Glock fanboi,

        I hate them too. I’d rather be shooting my 1911 or Smith wheelguns, but I’m comparing another Teutonic firearm that I personally think is a much better weapon.

    1. Remington 870 firing 2&3/4 mag shells loaded with modded sabot 410 slugs. Amazing what you can do with Laws of Physics, especially Kinetic Energy Equations. It doesn’t have a damm thing to do with $$, it has to do with your ability to be lethal in defense of your life. Welcome to Texas

  28. I curently own a total of 6 HK pistol, and one HK rifle.
    While I love HK pistols, I prefer DSA FALS.
    I have over the years, tried all the other brands and their different models.
    For pistols, HK is the brand I prefer.

    I will say this.
    You bring up very valid points about HK’s attitude toward civilians.
    Overall, a good rant.

  29. Ah, I see you managed to draw out the HK fanboys with this post.

    As an instructor I see my students bring in a lot of different guns. I’ve seen HK’s pistols fail at about the same rate as the other major brands.

    You want to know the most reliable auto-pistols I see come through my classes? It’s not any of the HK guns. It’s not even the Glocks. The Ruger centerfire autopistols are the most consistently reliable guns I see. I’ve literally yet to see a student have a malfunction with a Ruger centerfire semi-auto. I can’t say that for any other brand.

  30. “Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.”

    I value my life, and the FN-FNP40 I bought is worth the price. (For about $400 less than an HK.)

    We won’t even discuss the price differential between a CZ 75 and an HK — but the CZ is worth the price.

  31. I’m glad someone else has noticed this teutonic/ homoerotic slop that H&K and Glock have been shoveling for years.
    Yes, I’ve used the MP5 extensively, being issued one in the service. Sure, it’s a great gun, but worth only about 1/2 it’s asking price and certainly not the teutonic uber-blaster it’s touted to be. Man does it sling the brass! a tooth chipper for sure when hit by flying brass in CQB shooting houses!
    I own the USP9, but only because I got it new for $450 back during comrade Klinton’s “fear of guns” tour. It seemed the shop owner couldn’t sell such a large 10 shot 9mm….Any how, it’s extremely accurate, however it will not shoot any speer clean fire ammo(hard primers?) nor many of the other “Al Gore’s wet dream eco-ammo” it just doesn’t hit the primers hard enough. Size? Yeah maybe the samsonite gorillas could reach the trigger in d.a. mode, but I’m a little guy and used to carry it in c-1 “locked &cocked” ,however once I found a CZ-P01, the USP9 is rarely shot now.
    Yes I think the CZ-P01 & Browning Hi-Power are, in fact, better pistols. Hell, given the choice, i’d snatch up my old 4-inch S&W M19 combat magnum for “all hell’s broken loose” use long before i’d grab the “Dick Tracy cartoon square gun” USP9. Don’t even get me started on the “sculpted turd-guns” g-36 & xm-8. I’ve shot the G-36 and it is most definitley NOT the “end-all, be-all” of man-killers. Think of it as being an AR-18 w/ an outer shell desgned by Legos & StarshipTroopers.
    I’d rather be teamed up w/ a 70-something yr.old Korean war vet who’s carrying a .30-30 levergun and a four inch .38 revolver, when things get rough than any three young 25-35 yr old corpulent “gear queers” with all the latest H&K/Glock/5.11/Blackhawk, blah blah kool-aid drinking silliness, all the while giving each other high-5s and bragging about ” did you see my moves?/ did I look cool?” .
    Just focus on the following: basic infantry skills, physical fitness, marksmanship, “fighting smarter not harder” / “low-tech is high-tech” and not being so gear dependent. Everything else will fall in to place after that.
    As one can tell I don’t really hold Hitler’s little sisters at H&K and Glock in very high regard. OOPS! HAVE I BEEN RANTING? Sorry….no really I apologize…hahaha!

  32. Oh by the way, before some P.C. ninny starts complaining that i’m disparaging Korean war vets…..HELL NO I’M ABSOLUTELY NOT!
    My point is; that even though they might be of advanced age, I would absolutely trust my life to a vet of such a hard fought campaign, whose only using minimalist equipment long before I’d trust my life to a bunch of over-stuffed, buzz-cut/ ridiculous armchair commandos who think that just because they have the latest “war-fighting fashions”, they saw in the latest glamour gun rag, that they are ready to live out their “chubby hometown-heroes” fantasies…… I’d hate for you to think I’m a “troll” or what ever the blogging catch phrase is, it’s just that I’m tired of seeing so much bullshit being promoted by “Walter Mitty” types all over the internet. That is why I come to your site, Mad Ogre and Kim DuToit’s, for the fresh air and no bull shit mindset, you all share. thanks!

  33. Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.


    I’m convinced!

    I think I’ll sell the pistol on my hip and go buy three used Ultimate Sellout Pistols with the proceeds.

    You need a :rolleyes: smiley for times like this…

  34. I must not value my life very much at all, then…seeing how I trust it to that S&W six-shooter antique on my hip.

    In all seriousness, H&K pistols are okay. Had a P7M8 and a USPc once upon a time, and they worked well. But contrary to some people’s beliefs, they’re not quenched with the blood of dragons deep in the Black Forest, and they have no magical properties. They’re just machines, and the notion that one somehow doesn’t value their life by not carrying one is a little silly.

    It’s the shooter, not the gun, sport.

    1. Oh Goood… I’m not the only one who loves their old S&W… To be fair, my dad picked it out for me before mom pushed me out, and it’s a 29 with the long barrel… it’s big, it’s heavy – all steel construction – , I’ll never be able to conceal it, and it still barks fire and kicks like a mule… but one round of .44 mag will do what two or three rounds of 9mm will do, assuming the shooter does their part.

  35. The Ruger centerfire autopistols are the most consistently reliable guns I see. I’ve literally yet to see a student have a malfunction with a Ruger centerfire semi-auto

    I rarely mention it because I feel when I do I must duck my head lest I be bludgeoned by flying self-righteousness…but my carry gun is a Ruger P-97 .45acp.

    It is ugly as hell…but it gives a hearty BANG! every time I pull the trigger and it makes holes in the paper right where I’m pointing it.

    What more do you need a pistol to do???

    I can’t speak to their customer service…I’ve never needed it.

  36. Sometimes, I feel trashy for shooting my XD next to the guy with the tricked out H&K.

    But then I see the size of his pattern…I mean group, and I get over it.

    It’s not the hardware, it’s the software.

  37. “Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.”

    Wow, it’s almost like the poster of that comment *didn’t even read* your post. Larry, if you just had pictures of some wet-suited Übermensch rising dripping from the blackened sea, I’m certain you wouldn’t have to deal with this tripe. I’m pretty sure you commented on quality, but you Used Big Words here and there. Keep it simple for the fanboys, eh?

  38. Guys, just for clarification, the “Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.” quote is actually from my buddy Nightcrawler. He’s being sarcastic.

    I once had a guy tell me on THR pretty much that exact thing. It was pretty damn funny. 😀

    This post has gone all over the internet. I’m kind of surprised.

  39. well , dayum …
    i feel so left out with my old fashioned 5 shot 38 special snubby.
    i guess i’ll just never be ubercool and with-it by packing a high dollar euro-gun.
    i just don’t know what to say…

  40. So I’m guessing you think the M1911 is a manifestation of God? You don’t like HK’s? Suck it, go buy a Savage.

  41. “Suck it, go buy a Savage.” Well, since I could buy 36 Savage rifles for the price of a PSG1 (literally), I probably would. Only the 10FP shoots better groups than the German gun, and weighs 10 pounds less, the slower rate of fire will have to be made up by the other 35 Savage shooters.

    And yes, the 1911 was blessed by God himself, and sent to Earth through his holy prophet, St. John Moses Browning.

    And since John Browning doesn’t have the perfect hands of the Ubermensch, he designed his pistol for mortal humans.

    And for those of us with the mighty hands of the Ubermensch, we carry double stack 1911s from companies like STI, (which ironically since it is run by Texans, rather than Germans, actually has customer service, and doesn’t take an 8 week summer vacation) that though they cost about the same as the HK45, carry between 4 and 10 more rounds (depending on caliber), have a trigger that is shorter, lighter, far easier to hit with, a safety that can be operated with out accidently decocking the gun, are way thinner through the slide, don’t need a rubber O-ring to be accurate, are reliable (just put 600 rounds through my 4.15 Tac in 30 minutes with out a single malfunction) and absolutely dominate competition shooting in the US for a reason.

    Thanks, Koalorka, those are fine suggestions, though I’m unclear on that which upon I’m supposed to suck, Fanboy. 🙂

  42. I’m unclear about something……just why would an Ubermensch need a pistol? Surely he could crush us lowly unpure Americans with his mighty square hands!

  43. Okay Larry…. I did get a laugh out of this one… not only from your rant but the idiotic responses from the HK Prissy’s. Got to love em though cause you can always sell them crap ten times what its really worth. You do know what Preparation H&K is for right ?????

    Evil Blonde

  44. Just to be fair, I’ve shot a few pistols including the USP and 1911…

    I love my USP, a decent Glock, 1911, XD and the like are ALL THE SAME FRIGGIN PRICE if you catch them on sale. H*ll a uber-tactical 1911 costs… oh yeah $2,000!!! and people complain about the $1400 Mk. 23. I’m sorry but after having my mouth soured by the utterly unreliable 1911 I shot (Springfield Arm.) it’ll be a LONG time before I put my carry FULL SIZE USP down. Also you people must have some REALLY small hands. I can’t use a M9 9mm because it’s too wide, but yet me AND my girl (who has smaller hands than I can both easily shoot a full size…)

    Go figure.

    I’m not an HK fan boy, I have nothing vested in the companies continued success other than more parts IF my gun should ever break (and I know one day, it will) however, I find it funny that noone’s actually given a damn reliable pistol props. It’s alot more accurate than the USP-9, 1911, Ruger Blackhawk, Sigma and a few others have been. Let’s try using the PUSH button mag relase on a Glock or 1911 type… oh wait… the USP is easier… Ok… the safety is high up… I carry mine with a round in the chamber on double action and I can reach the trigger just fine. A little strong but no problems there. Oh wait… ALOT of other companies put their safety half way up the slide… Hmmm… as for parts… don’t deal with Hk support another company like Hkpro or E-gun parts…

    Just my .02…

    1. I have no particular favorites, but that being said, I cannot stand Glocks. They may be reliable (according to many reports I have read) but they are blocky, ugly, the factory triggers are like lifting 50 pound bags of cement, and their safety system being built into the trigger itself is ludicrous. Some people swear by them, I know. I have read too many horror stories and once actually saw someone fire one while it was bolstered because his zipper got caught in the trigger guard area and fired it. No thank you, sir. No Blocks for me, EVER!

  45. Spook, fair ’nuff. I did give the USP credit for being reliable. A couple of times. No doubt about that, like I said, it should be reliable, since it is huge.

    As for hands, I can palm a basketball. I’m a big dude. But I sell guns to regular folks, and most people hate the USP grip, unless when they first look at it, they’ve already made up their mind that it is awesome because of their preconceived notions.

    But at the end of the day, it is still a stamped sheet metal slide on top of a polymer frame, that costs double what all of the other similar guns do, with a lousy trigger.

    Okay, so out of a company that overall rates a D on its report card, the USP gets a C+.

  46. I think the issue with pistol grip size isn’t how big or small your hands are, but how meaty they are. I’ve seen lots of guys with large hands, but they have so much flesh in there that they might as well not have fingers. I have small skinny hands and I handle that USP just fine. I went and fired my USP the other day in like a year(and it sat dirty the whole time) and it was very nice compared to a gun I was testing.

    As long as it goes bang when I pull the trigger, I think I might like it.

  47. Ah heck, I’ll tell everybody how cool a gun company is if they’ll just have the sense to make my ideal combo at a reasonable price; high capacity pistol and carbine that share mags in either 10mm or 45ACP (the 45ACP has to be manufacturer rated to handle 45Super box, though)

    Of course, in order for me to forgive said company for sucking too much to have already figured out and made this perfect combo, they’ll have to send me the first three pairs free.

    Then that company will truly rock, even if it’s HK. The rest will still suck for being too dumb to figure it out quicker.

  48. I agree with a few of your points regarding the price of HK weapons when compared to others on the market, but most of the other stuff, simply isn’t true. Do some research, learn the laws and then come back with an intelligent rant that the H and K fanboys will take seriously. If you approached the HK booth with this kind of an additude I could see why they would snub you. I would too. Did you go to their LE booth and ask civilian questions? Maybe the LE booth was intended for their LE customer base, just a thought…

    As for why they sell deboned rifles to the US, look at the import restrictions. No retractable / folding stocks, no mag capacities over 10 rounds, etc. It’s all in the US import law. I’m sure they would love to sell boat loads of guns to the US, what company doesn’t like to make money? The HK416 is a badass gun. I had the pleasure of spending two weeks behind the trigger of one during a tactical training class. We burned in excess of 7,000 rounds that week and the gun ran like a charm, never cleaned it once (I did spray oil on the bolt group twice, that I remember). Have you dealt with their customer service within the last few years? Every thing that I’ve seen on the net, is praising them. Haven’t dealt with them personally, though so I can’t say. That doesn’t stop you though. You can take one person’s word about a XM8 being crappy, but can’t stand to hear that another guy likes it. So talk about what you have had experience with, and leave the rest to the guys who know what they’re talking about. (hint: USP slides aren’t stamped).

    Good day.

  49. I laughed so hard my stomach muscles were hurtin’ at your wit. Then I asked my Dearly Beloved WHY he had not seen fit to tell me just how brilliant you are.
    You are now a daily read on my blog trotline, even if JPG put you in the shooting group.

  50. Correia, you rock. I used to be an HK fanboy. Now, all I really like about the HK weapons is the look of the G3. I think it looks neat. But I use completely different internals than the G3 in my designs so they aren’t really G3s. Why am I not an HK fanboy anymore. Because I’ve never shot an HK and, more importantly, no one else I know has. No one! MP5? Nope. G3? Nope. PSG? Nope. HK53? Nope. I can’t evaluate a weapon if I don’t actually know how it shoots. When all I get from a company is their advertising, I lose respect for them.

  51. Man, you are wrong! Me and my buddies all bought HK long guns for a good price. They are awesome. We have a 4 man team and we kick butt with them.

    Of course they were made in Italy, have two barrels and are around .75 caliber or something. They are sort of a MLPS (multiple launch projectile system), or shot gun to the non-operators.

    Sweet guns.

  52. NC, on October 11th, 2007 at 11:40 pm Said:

    Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.

    *Sob* You’re right! My life is worth soooo much more than I paid for my HK! I am sooooo overcome with guilt that I’m going to write HK a blank check for my USP! Whatever you want, take it! My life is worth it!

    HKs are too cheap!

    Totally hilarious blog… you had me in stitches.

    I love my HKs …but I don’t pay for them.

  53. Tucson PD dumped the HK USP as it was an unreliable pistol. I watched thier armorer come over to the range I worked at almost every day to test fire repaired pistols. One officer came in off the street to pop a few rounds, and his USP failed to fire every other round. he left for the station, white as a sheet.
    We called the USP the Useless Sh*tty Pistol. I have fired the MP5, and the MP10, brought in by an FBI agent. Nice, waaaay to expensive.
    I would love a vP70z just to have one, (I actually like the trigger, go figure), but the name doesn’t impress me.

  54. I find it curious, sirs, that there is no reasoned response to the reasoned defense of H&K. *Shrugs*

    Having not fired any of these weapons, I cannot say for sure who is in the right, but there are a few things to consider about the HK416: 1) Delta Force was involved with the R&D and field testing and uses it in place of the M4. (2) In a demonstration trial to members of the Malaysian Armed Forces, a 416 was buried in mud, then fired, with no jams – something that’s very important here in Malaysia, which still has sufficient jungle for jungle warfare, and where 2 jungle wars have been fought: the 1948-1960 Emergency against a communist insurgency, and the 1963 Confrontation with Indonesia.

    Just a thought.

    1. The MP5/10 was primarily designed and manufactured for the SAS and SASR. It was then subsequently picked up in use by law enforcement agencies, the FBI being one. It was originally supposed to be used only for SF´s but they had no qualms with special police branches using them. I did note in the original rant by the blogger that he had problems with the magazine positioning with the bolt closed. Must have been an old model as sinse 1990 they all have the bolt group open after last round fired and fast release lever for instant deployment. Thats a positive and not a negative lol.

  55. “Well Mr. Correia, just how much is your life worth to you? If you valued your life, you’d see that HK was worth the price.”

    I carry 8 Mk 23s at all times, for just that reason. I’m a serious operator. Seriously.

  56. I watched a guy buy an HK 91 at the local fun shop a while back, he looked very pleased with himself. He also paid $2,200 for the privilege. Heck, I was pleased as punch too, remembering that I paid $600 for my PTR 91, which looks just like his HK 91 and works just as well, if not better.

  57. Good lord, that’s genius. As another firearm enthusiast who’s sick of being hit over the head by mall-ninja fantasies at every turn, and looks at a G3 and sees a Black Widow Sporter with a bayonet lug and double the price, I loved every word.

  58. Wow. I could buy about a hundred Mosins, 1893s, K31s or SMLEs for the price of one SG1.

    Oh, wait. I did.

    Could me and 100 of my friends take out someone with a PSG1?

    Probably. But we wouldn’t be as cool doing it.

    Seriously, though, I shoot a buddy’s US-made G3 clone all the time. It’s a pretty good $500 rifle. Not as good as a $500 FAL clone. But pretty good. I’ll be happy to pay $500 for a G3. After I buy my AR10.

  59. Good rant. Mix or real points and satire.

    Also, I note the comments – even the people that disagree are respectful and everyone is spelling and typing. Hmmm – must be something about the “gun culture” that develops character and social skills. No wonder the Left hates us – we don’t need them.

    I have tried several H&K, and agree. Big, blocky, top heavy. Same for Glock – I just cannot get myself to sell my 10MM ’cause 3 full mags = 45 rounds of full-house 10mm is just SO cool.

    I do own ONE H&K – a VP70Z. I believe it is the first commercial polymer pistol, holds 18 rounds (I think) in each mag, and looks like a ray gun. Striker fired, it’s got about a 20-lb trigger pull (no fooling – firing a full mag is a workout), but the art-deco look and history make it a keeper.

    Stay safe, and reload fast.

  60. Just a few thoughts from a guy that sells guns and shoots a bit.

    I work in a range that does both semi and full auto rentals. The only troubles we have had from the Uzi’s were cocking handle screws working loose.

    Can’t say the same for the MP-5s. They are cool, and fantastically accurate in semi-auto, but have a bad habit of breaking extractor springs on a regular basis. (This is not cool)

    Never have had a part broken on the Uzis, other than by ham-handed idiots over torquing the cocking handle screws rather than simply putting a little lock-tite on them.

    Rugers. We have had the same rental P89 and P90 on the wall for over fifteen years. No parts replacement yet.

    Cannot say the same for the Glocks, 1911s, XDs, the HKs (when we had them, they were nightmares for breaking parts), or even the frigging Smith revolvers. The Smith M&Ps and FN pistols are too recent to have a track record yet. Come to think of it, the Ruger revolvers have been through hell, and they don’t break either. (I think we might have had to replace a roll pin in the front sight of the SP101…)

    When we sell a Ruger auto, it stays sold. Can’t say the same for any other brand, with the possible exception of a CZ.

    And, after all this rambling, I carry, and trust my life to, an EAA Witness .45. After 13 years and I don’t want to think about how many rounds, the only problems I have ever had with it were two cracked magazine floorplates, both caused by dropping them while loaded.

    And, just for reference, West Germany, (which a recent visitor from Germany told me that there never was an East and West Germany, gotta wonder about European educations!), did adopt the FN-FAL for a short period of time. They called it the G1.

  61. On the subject of West and East Germany, the german visitor is technically correct. The West Germans called their nation the Federal Rpublic of Germany, while the East Germans called themselves the German Democratic Republic.

    Notice something: if you are a republic and you have to either “People’s” or “Democratic” in your name, you are ubdoubtedly Communist.

  62. Some significant few years ago, the HK USP first hit the US market, to considerable shottist-magazine excitement. A few months later, I walked into my local range, and there was one sitting in the rental rack.

    So I took a look at it. And yeah. My first reaction was that it was BLOODY GIGANTIC. Sure, it was a .45, but the frame and slide were big enough that you could probably wildcat up a .60-caliber round for it and still be able to use the existing slide casting.

    Anyway, not to be discouraged, I gave it a try on the range … and hated it. It had the ergonomics of a brick, and a trigger that felt like it was attached by rubber bands. I swear I could feel that damn plastic trigger flex on every shot. It never let off at the same point twice in a row, and that massive slide made it jump around even worse than a Glock – it had at least half again as much perceived recoil as my trusty Para-Ordnance P14, most of it simply from having about half a Buick engine block flying back and forth with each shot.

    So yeah. I don’t own a HK, and I have no plans to. With all their expensive lineup of pistols, they honestly don’t have one I’m really much interested in. My Para-Ordnance works just fine, thank you, as do my Browning GP35 and my Smith & Wesson M57. The only HK technology that really interests me is their polygon rifling, and even that’s not their original idea – it dates back at least to the Whitworth rifles[1] of the US Civil War era. I’d like to replace my M14 with something more accurate sometime, but I’m not thinking HK PSG1 so much as Knight Armaments SR25 or Blaser R93 LRS2.

    [1] “I am ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn’t hit an elephant at this dist-” — Maj. Gen. John Sedgwick, May 9, 1864, Spotsylvania, Virginia

  63. No fucking kidding.

    I was really entertained by the “rant”, and the comments almost made my lungs explode.

    Fucking H&K. Okay, someone needs to rant on Colt now, they had it coming…

  64. Great read! I previously owned an HK-91 and a USP .45, and what was said in this article, both about the triggers and safety/charging handle/recoil, was quite accurate! This reminded me why I dislike H&K, they’re really milking their rep with their earlier roller-locked arms. Damn straight about H&K marketing dept., too. Just watch any cheesy 80’s action flick and start counting backward from 100 the MP-5’s and G-3’s you see…

  65. You are on to something… I bought the USP .45 because it looked cool….

    After my first trip to the range I sold it and was back to my 1911.

    The height of bore above he web of my hand means my non firing hand thumb slips off the dustcover every time I fire. The trigger has a plastic feel that my 1911s had taught me to hate instantly, and the accuracy was mundane. I know it was probably mechanically half as accurate as my 1911… which is quite a statement, but I shot it four times moor poorly.

    When I got rid of it, the one thing I missed was the 13 round magazine. That was the only thing it had on my 1911.

  66. I think you forgot that after about a mag and a half of firing w/ the G3 the foregrip gets so hot you need an oven mit to hold it. So you are forced to hold it by the magazine itself…Germans must have oven mits for hands.

  67. While I do hate HK sales policy. I like their guns. With USP, you just need to learn how to shoot with them. Same as with cars, if you are used to driving 100year old museum piece (1911) it takes same getting used to modern cars (USP).

  68. Friend of mine pointed me to this “H&K basher”. Funny read, even more so for the comments.

    Although I kinda fit all the criteria for beeing the enemy (HK fan, chubby & teutonic “ubermensch” … well, at least I got a german passport), I’d like to add my 0.02$

    I used the G3 back in the early 90s while in military service. Since I was in the Navy, I didn’t get to shoot too many rounds with it. But I kinda liked it. Even though the rifle was probably older then I was and had been used & abused by literally hundreds of recruits before me, it was pretty reliable (except with the plastic blanks) and I could repeatedly hit targets out to 200 meters. At 300m it wasn’t so good anymore, but that might have been me.

    Two things I still remember about the G3 in service.

    One is that at some day, our instructors ran us through some excercise during witch we had to take cover in the sand (near a small pond). Afterwards, our rifles were all pretty messed up. There was sand just everywhere on and in the rifles. I cleaned mine right after we got back to camp, others didn’t. One of them broke his cocking handle the next morning trying to open the bolt … and using his entrenchment tool for help.

    The other thing is about the recoil. I never felt that this was excessive or too much in any way. Go shoot a Karabiner 98k or any other, relatively light weight 7.92×57 rifle and you know what I mean. But back in the day, there were a lot of stories about US military personnel that hurt/dislocated/broke their shoulders when shooting a G3. Although I never witnessed it and don’t know how true the stories were, that was quite funny for us. Used to laugh a lot about the guys “only used to handle poodle shooters, too weak for a real rifle”.

    Again, those stories are probably exaggerated, so don’t take offense. I’d mentioned it mainly to make a point about the differences in percepted recoil. Far as I remember, there were no big complaints in our ranks, not even from the few girls we had.

    As for the USP series of handguns, I had the chance to try both a H&K P8 (german military version of the USP9) and the Mk23 at the range. The USP sucked, I couldn’t get used to it. But it wasn’t for the big grip, because the Mk23 was a dream to shoot.

    It’s massive, it has some sort of a recoil dampening device (at least I’m pretty sure I read that somewhere), and I was able to hit whatever I pointed this monster at. Not sure I’d like to lump one around for a week, though.

    I currently own and shoot a S&W M59. Used to train a lot with a SIG Sauer P226 and (in my humble opinion), the M59 gets pretty close as far as handling is concerned. Bought it used and rather cheap, so not much to do wrong here. For a long gun I use a Yugo SKS with Tapco stock & mags.

    I still want to get myself a .45 USP Compact, simpy because it’s cheaper then a Mk23. Over here, prices don’t differ much for SIG Sauer, Beretta or HK. Glock and Ruger are cheaper.

    Been at the HK booth a couple times at the IWA (little brother to the SHOT show, held in Nuremburg/Germany) and never experienced the infamous HK sneer. Might have something to do with the way HK sees the german (sport shooting mainly) vs. the american market (emphasis on LE?).

  69. Of course all H&K guns are superior. That is why all of the winning shooters in IPSC and three gun matches use H&K. Price is no object. They don’t just talk about guns, they make a living in a game where every single round is scored and reliability is essential. Don’t look at the gun, look at the target.

    If you are one of those guys who like the “ergonomics” of H&K products, I am sure Larry will sell them to you. Hell, he would even over charge you if you life if worth more than a normal guy.

  70. A big thumbs up!!

    Even though I confess to owning a few H und K’s I laughed my ass off. Well written and UNFORTUNATELY oh so true. It’s gotten to be like the “Ford vs Chevy” thing. Gimme a break……..they all do the same thing!!!! H und K (the company) has a screwed up attitude and that’s that. Period.

  71. what a lot of folks do not know, back in 1998 when smith & wesson signed that agreement with HUD under the clinton administration, whereby they would accept an “oversight committee” of 5 member, 3 would be gov’t officials (do a google for it – the terms will flip you out), another provision was that Smith & Wesson would also turn over all ownership records to HUD (that’s right, Housing & Urban Development, which at the time was run by Andrew Cuomo, secretary of housing). That meant if you had ever filled out a warranty card on a S&W, or sent one in for repair, your name was givent to HUD

    Some of you will recall there was a big uproar but Smith & Wesson was owned by a british company, Tompkins LLC and the brits have a different attitude toward their governemt, it’s more their “mother” than a gov’t

    Well, guess who else signed it ? H&K, with a confidentiality clause that if knowledge of their signing it became public, the agreement was null & void

    if you recall, H&K at the time, was owned by another british company, BAE
    I’ve filed 3 FOIA requests for a copy of that agreement and have never had a response in 5 years

  72. As the owner of an FN PS-90 I would know nothing about paying double what a weapon is actually worth merely for the added cool factor. And I’m not looking for a decently priced FiveseveN piece of plastic crap which costs about five times what it’s worth either.

  73. As an aside to the rant, nice to read about the CZ pistols, ” Can’t say the same for any other brand, with the possible exception of a CZ.” My hip, Blackhawk holster, and CZ P01 are very comfortable together. Rubber grips, 14 rounds and more confirmation of its quality. Thanks

  74. Nice article dude. First rate. I got to shoot a few HK weapons, and I was not impressed. You pretty much have to baby the MP5 or else the thing will jam on you. The FAL and M14 are much better than the G3. And since I was a grunt who served on the front lines in Iraq, for two tours, our M4s were very reliable and I’ve never met anyone who has used the weapon extensively who did not like it. There is no need to change to the 416, that is just a bunch of propaganda.

  75. To that Urban Legend concerning dislocating a shoulder when firing a G3:
    It wasn’t with the G3 but with the MG 3 – and I’ve seen it happening – the guy tried to fired it with one hand only…

    1. Well, as someone qualified to operate the MG-3, i feel that shooting a 1300rds/min weapon one handed is simply retarded.

  76. HK just got dropped from my local gun pusher. Their customer service sucks ass and he couldn’t sell their guns without severly discountig them. Shame, I was seriosly considering taking the HK plunge with a 45c but will now wait for the Px4-sd due later this summer.

  77. It’s a German thing you wouldn’t understand. I only have had one HK weapon in my life. That silly squeeze-cocking thing. When I had a cash shortage, I was faced with a choice of sell it, or sell half my gun rack. I sold it for more than I paid for it.

    This attitude prevails in anything they think we like. I hadda get a Volkswagen some years back and the sneering attitude toward the customer has been transmitted toward the local staff and they’re all Americans, even the ones with German names….. I feel like an abused co-dependent every time I go in for basic maintenance.

    Makes me glad I didn’t buy one of the last amiga’s from escom.

  78. Great article. I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Even though I love USPs I do despise H&K’s pain in the ass marketing strategy. I really don’t understand why they won’t sell to civilians.

    I got my USP-Tactical, I’m probably never buying another H&K product b/c of their reluctance to sell them to me.

  79. I posted a couple a days back, forgot to mention my carry guns. I have recently consummated a two decade long letch for the S&W 469. I like the Browning Hi-Power, and the detective model. I did once ask the HK Rep(tile) how many of their customers die, of old age, before they have enough saved up for those triple-priced toys… I have Makarov, Tokarev, and the square gripped CZ-52. For serious hunting I have a Savage 30-06, going on it’s forth scope. They break. I also have Hi-point, and Kel-Tec 9mm carbines, love ’em.

    I’m also slightly shocked to discover that I have more than a dozen .22lr rifles! They’re like stray dogs, except for one Ruger 10/22 and an AR-7 I bought new, the rest just sort of showed up at my door. A nylon 66 will always find a happy home here.

    I’ll never buy another HK, German car, or German ANYTHING, new ever again.

    Because I Suck, and they hate me!

  80. I had to read this again. I still think the following is my favorite part: ” Fritz at the armorer’s school damn near had an aneurism when he saw this blasphemy against his ineffectual German gods. ”

    Heh. Hah-hah. Hee. 😀

  81. Someone in the comments said they also get the sneer from Glock. While I love Herr Glock’s Cinderella story of a poor but honest plastics wank, who didn’t know a gun from a glockenspiel, rising to supply the entire Austrian Army, plus several dozen clueless Police Departments, with his first effort, Brings a tear to me eye it does. But I find it distressing to see hard headed cops succumb to almost MY level of toy mania.

    I might buy a Glock or HK at a distress sale, but I would rather add another .22 to my dozen and a half rifles, or my 8 pistols. I’ll have the .22 on me chances are. Even though I just got my CCP. Massad Ayoob is coming to neighboring Couer d’Alene, and I’m gonna over spend and be there….

  82. The MP5 is the only HK I have an long-term experience with.
    I love it; great ergos, sights, feel, mag release, and it shoots as smooth as glass.
    Also don’t like a few important things; A3 stock feels like crap, selector lever position is horrible (you better be clicked into the position you want when the shooting starts ), no LRBHO, small magwell, and the gun DOES JAM.

    Comparing it to a 9mm Colt smg, the Colt mags love to unload themselves if dropped, and the Colt is no where near as smooth as the MP5. Colt selector is perfection.
    The Colt has been a hair more reliable in my experience, but with the Colt magazine issues, it’s hard to say the Colt is actually more reliable in reality.

    I favor the MP5 just because it is so much smoother than the colt.

    I think the G3 is horrible, the FAL is a much better weapon.
    I think the HK super-sized 45 is ridiculous.
    I think all HK stuff is overpriced.

  83. I am left handed, and I have a USP Compact, which I bought on the salesman’s assurance that I could easily obtain an ambi-safety lever for it. That seemed reasonable to me. I’ve put ambi-safeties on my 1911s, and getting the parts for them was never a problem.

    Well, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I’ll never buy an H&K product again. I’ve made so many phone calls to H&K to try and get an ambi-safety that they ought to offer to pay my phone bill for a month. They keep saying to call them back in a couple of weeks. This has been going on for the better part of a year. I’m going to sell this pistol and buy another 1911. Yes, the USP is very reliable, but truthfully, it is not all that accurate. My little 3″ Kimber will shoot rings around my USP. And I don’t care how reliable it is; sooner or later all guns will break. And since H&K doesn’t take parts availability with any degree of seriousness, my $740 USP will then be just an expensive paperweight.

    I’m going to sell it before that happens.

  84. Don’t forget that Lara Croft’s personal choice of pistol is the USP, uber-hollywood-ized with those HUGE compensators, of course. That certainly adds something to HK’s super-coolness.

    Great write-up. You are 100% right about people who talk up guns that they have never shot, handled, or seen other than video games and Futureweapons.

  85. I have the new HK45 and like it a great deal. I prefer the location of the mag release compared to other gun makers and it works just fine for me. I shot at least a dozen different guns before buying the HK and feel that it was worth the cost. I agree on the trigger though, it does grind even after I sent it in for the LEO trigger.

    I do agree 100% on the HK long gun rants which have been posted. They are overpriced, cheaply made, and underwhelming at best. As for the Mark 23, I would never even consider owning one.

    I am very interested in purchasing a piston AR but am unlikely to buy it from HK. There are many manufacturers in this country making them now so I can afford to shop for the best set of features as well as price.

  86. I miss the H&K of the 1970’s through the 80s.

    That was a company that genuinely liked selling guns, and was innovating the hell out of things.

    HK4: four barrels, one slide, one frame. Neat little gun.

    P9 Series: beautiful guns, nice ergonomics, smooth shooters.

    P7 Series, truely innovative, and thinking outside of the box.

    Also, no hesitation whatsoever in offering semi-auto civilian versions of their military guns: HK91, 93, 94, SP89. Heavy, but well made…and the vaunted Belgian FAL at the time cost twice as much as the H&K rifle in the same caliber.

    The guns were still expensive, yes, but you got great value for your money, IMO.

    Then the 90’s, they got bought by the Brits, things went downhill..but at least they still offered the P7 series, and the USP guns were pretty good. I still like my USP9 I bought back in 94.

    Then comes the 2000’s, and they got bought back by the Germans. Great news, right? WRONG.

    Hey, you wanna buy a P7? Sorry, discontinued!

    Hell, the M13 was discontinued almost right when the AW ban expired…the guns at LE distributors flew out the door, and H&K started threatening shops selling the now-legal LE hicap mags.

    Police department wants to buy an MP5/40? Sorry, but we’ll sell you these cheapass plastic UMP’s for a couple hundred less.

    Oh, you want parts for your 12 existing 40’s? Sorry, no parts, but we got these UMP’s…

    The only reason why the MP5 (one of the greatest subguns ever made) is still made is because the French placed a huge order, and H&K is realizing that nobody wants the cheap plastic junk UMP’s.

    Larry’s right, they think we suck and they hate us.

  87. This entry is completely full of win. I have one extremely reliable HK USP that I love, but it’s also the last HK I’ll ever own.

    I have never been impressed with a single HK rifle. To hear folks (and HK) tell it, the HK416 an incredible leap in firearms technology, the likes we haven’t seen since the introduction of brass cartridges. *rolls eyes*

  88. Dear Ghod … the comments just keep on going.

    To the HK fanboi who thinks the MP-5 is the best modern SMG … at SMG competitions in the US, the PPSH-41 shooters make the MP-5 shooters cry.

    They don’t realize how sucktasticly slow their closed-bolt toys are until they clear a table in 5 seconds … and then watch the PPSH and Soumi shooters clear said table in under 1 second.

  89. I ran across a link from another site the pointed here and started reading all the rants and raves about HK. I’ve handled a few, but never shot one. The USP is just too darn blocky for my hands. I know a guy that could probably palm one. He has the meatiest hands I’ve ever seen. One thing I do know. If a gun doesn’t sit well in your hand, and lacks pointability, you are handicapped from the very beginning. Not all designs are equal.
    I’ve been shooting for 32 years, so I’m not a newbie. I learned to shoot with a Charter Arms Bulldog chambered in .44 Special. It was punishing, but at that time I was ignorant enough to think all guns handled the same. So I accepted that aspect of shooting and continued from there.
    My next handgun was a .22 revolver, the manufacturer’s name eludes me right now. I do know they went under, only to reappear under another name. I learned to be very accurate with it. The cheaper ammo went a long way toward that end.
    I’ve had auto loaders fail me, as well as revolvers. I’ve had revolvers break unexpectedly. I’ve had ejector rods bend on both a S&W 29, and a Ruger Security-Six. That’ll bind the cylinder where it will not move with just the use of a finger squeezing the trigger. I’ve had the trigger spring on an old Beretta 92 break. And I’ve had more faulty extractors on Kel-Tecs than you can shake a stick at. Whereas others I’ve known had great success. I had one .45 auto that failed in less than 100 rounds. It’s recoil guide broke. The lip the retains the larger spring broke off. Not very comforting. Any handgun can fail. I don’t care how much you pay for it.
    The closest I came to actually owning an HK was when I owned a PTR 91. It was a pretty fair rifle. But, I also had a paratrooper model of the Imbel FN that was imported by Springfield. Which was just flat out a better weapon – IMO. Arthritis has caused me to give up rifles, because I cannot tolerate walking the distance downrange to set up targets. It took all the fun out of it.
    I have never had a case of magnumitis. I never tried to create scorcher ammo, and I never ran +P ammo through any gun I owned. I have always been primarily concerned with my skill as a shooter, not how fast a round would go downrange. If I couldn’t hit with a gun, and that has happened, I try to correct it, or get another. I shoot several inches low low with stock sights on a Kahr. I do the same problem with Taurus pistols equipped with the straight 8 sights.
    I have certain demands from a handgun that are absolute in nature.
    1.) It has to feel good in my hand and point naturally.
    2.) It has to be reliable. (I will not trust a auto until I’ve fed it between 250 to 300 rounds. The first rounds that go through any auto I’m shooting for the first time, is two magazines loaded with defense loads.)
    3.) It must be reasonably accurate.
    4.) If I intend to carry it, it must be concealable. I have a CCP. and I do carry constantly. I carry a Kahr PM9 with Noval low profile dot sights in my front pocket every single day from the time I get dressed to the time I get ready for bed.
    Yes, I switch magazines out every month. I also clean, inspect and lube it on the day I switch magazines. Kahrs are pretty pricey too. I paid about $700 for mine, and it has been flawless and accurate.
    When I go out, I often lock up my PM9 and grab my stainless Kahr MK40 with MMC Adjustable sights. I bought it used at a gun show for less than $400. It had been dumped because the slide lock was bent, which caused the slide to lock open during shooting – even with ammo still in the mag. Kahr makes a terrific gun, even though I consider them too expensive. I bought my PM9 specifically to carry. It is a keeper.
    Now, back to HK. I price the gun, too expensive. I price the mags, too expensive. I cannot believe an HK handgun in any caliber can out shoot my S&W M&P 45. All 11 rounds make a nice cloverleaf pattern at combat distances. This pistol has been 100% reliable. S&W has a lifetime warranty, and I see HK does too. BUT, from the postings I’ve read, HK doesn’t seem to be too customer friendly. However, S&W IS customer friendly. They even sent me a spare magazine for the P99 I had to send in for repair.
    S&W is now American owned and operated. The British plumbing firm that owned it during the Clintonesta regime sold it. The new company management told HUD to stick it. They are now very 2nd amendment friendly in all respects. The British owned S&W reflected the European thought toward guns in civilian hands – a no no..

    Heck, I like Sigs, a lot too, but I cannot afford their prices. I can buy two Ruger 345s for the price of one of those.

    So, the question I have is this… If HK makes the “world’s best firearm” then how come they feel like a 2×4 in your hand?

    Proper ergonomics make a handgun feel natural in the hand, almost as if it was an extension of your hand. My much less expensive S&W Sigma in 40 S&W practically points itself and costs considerably less than any HK I’ve seen… and I got two free 14 round magazines from S&W along with a $50 check. It also hits whatever I aim at.

  90. HK did the Piston Upper FIRST!!!!!!
    The U.S gun lobby did not want the Superior German Rifles from the Fatherland to make their pop-guns look like junk.
    They got the government to pass import laws preventing HK sending the Rifles to U.S soil.
    HK had to build them in the U.S or no go! HK said F.U slimey American Civilians.
    You then had companies like P.O.F and Bushmaster STEAL the HK Piston upper and produce it in the U.S

    HK Forever. You will NEVER understand. When your piece of U.S trash AR jams and your buddies DIE!…You should have deployed with a HK!

    1. HK is the last in a long line of piston uppers. Eugene Stoner first did it back in the late 60s and tried to interest the Army in it to no avail. The Stoner design was actually used on the G36 and now the 416 which HK has made proprietary. So who stole what? You really need to educate yourself a bit before going on a rant.

      1. LWRC makes the best piston operating system on the market, and their CS and availability of repair/replacement parts (should you ever need them!) puts H&K to shame. They also stand by their products 100% replacing or servicing stuff inside of a month.

  91. I truly enjoyed the rant against HK, and found the majority of comments above to be instructive (especially Fedora1953).

    I own a CETME and like it a lot, but I do resent the fact that it destroys the brass, especially with ammo prices climbing and myself just starting to think about reloading.

    It is my go-to gun for SHTF.
    It’s completely reliable after a bit of mag tweaking, and the accuracy is more limited by the quality of ammo than the gun itself.

    I had Bill Springfield do a trigger job for me and it was worth every penny.

    The thing that made me like this article (rant) was the pain I felt when I couldn’t get a semi-auto G36. At the time I believed that it was the modern improved version of my CETME. The horror of the SL8 sank gradually into my consciousness like the death of a loved one. At that point I realized that H&K was a part of the Socialist gun control machine, and of course I have hated them ever since.

    Nothing since then has dissuaded me from this view.
    The reviewers in the gun rags try desperately to paint their patron’s products in the best light, but the details slip through.

    Magazine disconnect.
    Integral trigger lock.
    Loaded chamber indicator.

    The list goes on but I feel the rising revulsion in my stomach.

    HK thinks we suck, and they hate us.

  92. Hilarious! And true. I have a USP-9F and a USP-9C. I got them at prices HK would not approve of. The Compact malfed a few weeks back so now begins the wait for the parts. My gunsmith – a nationally-know guy – hates them as their response time is terrible.

  93. The biggest draw of the G3 is the illegal, covert possibilities. With all the full auto parts previously available (Not any more) making the gun full auto without changing the receiver is not very hard.

    All you need to do is alter the trigger pack which is about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Of course it’s a little more complicated than that to get it to work right but the potential is there.

    Of course no one talks about that publicly but that adds a lot of covert appeal to the gun. It applies to all the G3/33/MP5 family.

    I knew a Class 2 manufacturer and I saw him do it in less than an hour. Registering it with the paperwork (Form 2) and engraving the serial number and maker name takes longer.

  94. A lot of hype over H&K guns. But back in 1994 we didnt have the games we have now so its worse. I’ve heard storys from contras about how disliked the hk mp5 was. In fact they prefer the mac-10 or mac-11 over the uzi, only because the uzi is almost a rifle. If you said that years ago you’d be universally shunned because mac’s are “innacuate pieces of junk”. Heavy and clunky, yes. But not worse. You cant insert a fully loaded magazine in a mp5 with the bolt closed. Something the armchairs wouldnt know because they’ve never used one. They are all impossible to make parts for. Which is good because if your a middle eastern dictator, you want all your cops to hold mp5’s with unloaded magazines (to keep dirt ouf of the action) to intimidate your unarmed populace. And if anyone raids that arms depot, the guns wont last long “in the field”. HK guns are indeed overpriced sheet metal. The rifles are unbalanced. They do beat you up. You cant use any type of ammo in them. What good is that going to do when you only have blacktips, bluetips or berdain primed, corrosive ammo in the field? Ever shoot the .40 P7? Excessive recoil and the double stack versions of both arent worth the extra capacity. Shoot all versions and report the results. Also the P7 has no external slide release. On the last shot the slide locks back. You are to release the grip, eject the empty, insert a magazine then squeeze the gun to release the slide. With a 3 pound single action trigger thats going to made AD’s a bit of an issue for most. Reliable with the 2 or 3 types of ammo by lot number and if the gun is clean and maintained in a climate and humid controlled enviornment. Remember when they started giving Reisings to cops as squad rifles? Read between the lines on that one. Same kind of thing with HK. Dont mistake the most popular idea or theory as being the ONLY explaination. Parsimony doesnt apply here. There is more but I dont feel like typing anymore.

  95. Ironically I saw a thing on tv today talking about vintage porche’s. Crap car. Sounds like a jet airplane. Test drive a porche before you wax poetic. Handles like hell under 80mph because of the wheelbase. Thats why you always see guys driving fast with porches. You had to buy the car stock with no spedometer, ect. And the addons would cost as much as a lower end sports car in the day. And you couldnt get parts for it. Porche’s attitude was “our cars dont break”. Same attitude here. French, german, italian. I’ll pass. I’d rather buy chinese or american.

  96. Dude, you rock!

    I’ve loathed ugly plastic H&K crap ever since I foolishly spent a fortune on one of their pistols and realized that:

    1.It wasn’t made for my human sized hands–I made a fool out of myself and scared the range master whenever I shot it.

    2.It really does have a worse trigger than a Makarov (and I have a Mak–much more fun to shoot. And you can get used to the trigger, since it is the only real flaw)

    3.Worst of all I realized I could have bought:

    –Two old P-38’s
    –A collectible Luger
    –A super accurate Kimber .45

    And many other things . . .

    . . .anyhow I sold it and haven’t regretted it.

    I thought I w

  97. Chris, is that the best you got? Gotta do better than that.

    And if you’ve got issues with Mormons, I’d still take John Browning over Heckler, Koch, & Seidel and the other Nazis that fled to Spain. 🙂

  98. From a reliabilty perspective what do u guys think of Sigs P226/P229 in 9mm?

    Why Sig? I really like the way the 226 feels in my hand and like the location of the decocking lever.

    I’ve chosen 9mm primarly due to cost and I figure both models will feed HPs with little trouble when it comes to home defense.

  99. This was great reading and generally confirmed my unsubstainated opinion of H&K. So please forgive when I go off topic. I’m thinking about the Sig 226 or 229 chambered for the 9mm. I prefer the feeling of an all steel gun in lieu of composites, and really enjoyed the 226 (I like the location of the de-cocking lever). The weapon will be primarily used for home defense as a back up (My short barrel Remington 870 is my primary) and as my first pistol.

  100. To the above: I’d suggest bringing your question to the webforum, We The Armed (

    The Sig 229 and 229 have alloy frames, not steel, but they’re good guns. I’ve got quite a few rounds through a Sig 226R and like it quite a bit. I’d like it more if it wasn’t so biased against lefties, but that may not be an issue for you.

    You won’t go wrong with the Sig.

    And, for the record, in case anyone else reads over these (now classic) comments…yes, I was being sarcastic when I told Larry that if he valued his life, he’d carry an H&K.

  101. I’m one of, like, 10,000 guys who own a USP Compact in .40 S&W. Everything Larry said is absolutely spot on – including my STUPID decision of having bought one based on someone else’s recommendation, without having fired one first. After having owned, shot, and loved, a number of 1911 pattern pistols, the H&K was a severe disappointment – but it IS reliable, and that must count for something.

    That being said, I’ll probably sell it and get something a little more satisfying with the money, just so I can stop kicking my own ass for having been an idiot.

  102. Loved the rant.

    I’m also enjoyed reading the love for Ruger pistols here. I’m a Ruger fanboy because their handguns are reasonably priced, well-built, and reliable. Trigger pull might suck but otherwise a decent weapon.

    I think if Bill Ruger had kept his mouth shut 90% of the Ruger hate would disappear.

  103. Hey…awesome letter. I just got torked off by HK and so I posted my complaint on the Nebraska Concealed Carry Forum. Someone then replied with a link to your site.

    I am now a former HK customer! Keep up the good work.

  104. correia45
    when you said
    “The 416 is basically an AR with a gas piston, WHICH HAS BEEN DONE BY LIKE TEN OTHER COMPANIES, but somehow the HK is better, because it was on Future Weapons, and HK won’t sell it to civilians. ”

    what other guns are you talking about have a gas piston??
    plz tell me so that i can ckeck them out
    (or even better, counld you give me some gun name that have the same firing system as the h & k 416?)

    also, tx you for the info on h & k guns, i had NO idea that they were like this (except for being a bunch of baby when it come to exports)


  105. Great Comedy!!! Scorned? I think so. You must be too broke to own many of the weapons you talk about. I have owned, PSG1’s, HK-91, HK- SR9’s. Most accurate auto on the planet. You can say what you want about the HK, I will always like them. What you seem to have forgot was, the HK-91 was $400 when they came out, at the same time the AK-47 Galiil was triple. The PSG-1 was only 2k when they came out, now, because of the terrible laws passed in this country, made them sky rocket. I didnt hear any mention of that by you. Your wining over price? My life is worth more than price. What gun that was a .308 that shot as long and hit as hard was out then? The Garand? If you felt you needed an Elephant sitting on your shoulder, I guess that would be a second choice and that time, the price was the same or more. My SR9 with a polygon barrel was only $900 when I bought it. Today, 8k! WHY? The laws changed and HK made a decision that was good for their company, and you have a problem with that? How stupid are you? They took an un heard of idea and turned it into reality, unlike your ideas of a “perfect weapon”. What you dont seem to get is the fact that their engineers built a good, solid, reliable weapon and you want to knock it because you cant afford it. HK may not make the best weapon today, but they run in the top 3, EASILY. Some on that list are made right here in the U.S. You can claim they make a “bad” weapon. You can claim they hate civilians, but they had their backs turned on them by the government and you blame, “they hate us”. Wouldnt you if they banned your guns from existance after paying engineers hundreds of thousands of dollars to design a gun to sell to us and some jack-ass President Bush Sr. puts a ban into affect to stop the sell of them? You seem to leave out VERY relevant elements to your claim. It only shows how ignorant you really are and how you really havent seen through the history of their designs. Your claim to their marketing efforts is rediculous. So I guess when gran tourismo came out they shouldnt use a Ferrari either? Or a Porsche? Typical mentallity with children, leaving the elements up to a “game”, how old are you? Or should I say, what grade level did you finish? I suggest you do some serious soul searching and realize HK makes a good gun. It may be sub-par to you and that is your opinion. In this great country you have your right to your opinion. A lot of hatred that came from you posting is absolutely hilarious statements. I obviously wouldnt make a HK USC into a full-auto, duh. And the only gun that cant be bought as a civilian is the new XM8, EVERY OTHER GUN HAS A CIVILIAN VERSION How stupid are you to claim that? Pretty stupid….. In your mind a gun should be so perfect that it is made by perfect people and perfect tooling, there is no such thing. Your pipe dream of a weapon just went up in smoke. I love HK, I love Colt, I love Remington and I own them all. I am not biased to the HK brand, but facts are facts. Your comments are stupid, childish and outright blasphemy… Keep playing Rainbow Six……

  106. Owner of: HK USP .45, Colt 70 Series .45 ACP, HK-SR9, HK-91, Tikka T3 Tactical, HK-SL8, Sig 226 9mm, Colt Mustang .380, Colt 2nd Gen .45 single action with Ivory, Weatherby Vanguard 25-06, Benelli M1, Remington 1100, Walther P22, Walther G22, GSG-5.

    All guns have their place for different people, you dont seem to realize what the guy said before me, he is spot on accurate. Get a clue and do more research and not just the weapon, but the laws too. They have caused a lot of your claim and some of your claims are outright wrong. HK, Colt, Barrett, Remington so far, has gotten it right. But unfortunately, the laws have ruined the HK sales and caused heavy price increases. Their hand guns are good and much better than ANY GLOCK piece of crap. My 1911’s are just as reliable and are near the same price as my USP’s. So what claim are you making exactly about the HK? Over priced? Go back to 1989 and the previous post shows that the laws changed. Secondly, your claim is that the PSG-1 was heavy. Weigh a Barratt .338lapua and it weighs in over 10lbs over! Or a Garand for that matter. Get a clue. I completely agree with the man above me, he has got it right on. The laws changed, the prices spiked. That simple.

    T. REED

  107. Great Comedy!!! Scorned? I think so. You must be too broke to own many of the weapons you talk about. I have owned, PSG1’s, HK-91, HK- SR9’s. Most accurate auto on the planet. You can say what you want about the HK, I will always like them. What you seem to have forgot was, the HK-91 was $400 when they came out, at the same time the AK-47 Galiil was triple. The PSG-1 was only 2k when they came out, now, because of the terrible laws passed in this country, made them sky rocket. I didnt hear any mention of that by you. Your wining over price? My life is worth more than price. What gun that was a .308 that shot as long and hit as hard was out then? The Garand? If you felt you needed an Elephant sitting on your shoulder, I guess that would be a second choice and that time, the price was the same or more. My SR9 with a polygon barrel was only $900 when I bought it. Today, 8k! WHY? The laws changed and HK made a decision that was good for their company, and you have a problem with that? How stupid are you? They took an un heard of idea and turned it into reality, unlike your ideas of a “perfect weapon”. What you dont seem to get is the fact that their engineers built a good, solid, reliable weapon and you want to knock it because you cant afford it. HK may not make the best weapon today, but they run in the top 3, EASILY. Some on that list are made right here in the U.S. You can claim they make a “bad” weapon. You can claim they hate civilians, but they had their backs turned on them by the government and you blame, “they hate us”. Wouldnt you if they banned your guns from existance after paying engineers hundreds of thousands of dollars to design a gun to sell to us and some jack-ass President Bush Sr. puts a ban into affect to stop the sell of them? You seem to leave out VERY relevant elements to your claim. It only shows how ignorant you really are and how you really havent seen through the history of their designs. Your claim to their marketing efforts is rediculous. So I guess when gran tourismo came out they shouldnt use a Ferrari either? Or a Porsche? Typical mentallity with children, leaving the elements up to a “game”, how old are you? Or should I say, what grade level did you finish? I suggest you do some serious soul searching and realize HK makes a good gun. It may be sub-par to you and that is your opinion. In this great country you have your right to your opinion. A lot of hatred that came from you posting is absolutely hilarious statements. I obviously wouldnt make a HK USC into a full-auto, duh. And the only gun that cant be bought as a civilian is the new XM8, EVERY OTHER GUN HAS A CIVILIAN VERSION How stupid are you to claim that? Pretty stupid….. In your mind a gun should be so perfect that it is made by perfect people and perfect tooling, there is no such thing. Your pipe dream of a weapon just went up in smoke. I love HK, I love Colt, I love Remington and I own them all. I am not biased to the HK brand, but facts are facts. Your comments are stupid, childish and outright blasphemy… Keep playing Rainbow Six……

    1. Sounds like YOU’RE the one who only plays Rainbow Six. And badly, too.

      Corriera runs a GUNSHOP, with an extremely wide array of full-auto firearms, INCLUDING your teutonic bolt thrower. And he’s fired tha, amd found others BETTER.

      I find the PPSh41 HUNDREDS of times better than anything HK can offer.

    2. The whole point is that if your going to spend rediculous amounts of money you may as well get the best. If HK’s guns were so great the military would use all of their guns, they dont, just the Mp5. The PSG1 is hardly the best repeater, something tells me even the fricken Scar H could out perform that pile. If you want the best repeater in the world, Knight’s Armament. end of story. I guess my ultimate point is, HK is living in the past the only arguements they have are old outdated guns, which for some reason rival better newer guns in cost. Except for the Mp5…….which is so expensive its not even funny.

  108. Funny post 🙂

    I own only one pistol and yepper, it is a USP40.

    I like it, I have tiny hands and long fingers. So I don’t have a problem holdiong it or shooting it. It’s the only .40 I’ve ever enjoyed shooting-the recoil reducer really does the trick. I don’t think it’s overlarge-and I have a full size one. I’m a woman and carry concealed-mostly in a Coronado purse-so it works fine and it also works fine in a shoulder holster under a loose shirt or jacket (and I’m small!).

    I like it because it’s a .40 with more than 12 rounds capacity that I can carry cocked and locked if I want to-or have a safety with the hammer down if I want to-or have a decocker and no safety if I want to. I haven’t seen another one (even an HK) that lets you do all of that; I like the CZ but you better be careful lowering that hammer on a loaded chamber…or “boom.” I feel better with the decocker.

    It IS too darn expensive and you’ll pay through the nose for 13 round magazines-if you can FIND them, And the “hostile environment finish” isn’t. It comes off if you look at it funny. But it IS light to carry and it feels nice in my hands. And mine came with factory Meprolights, which was an added bonus (I know, lots of pistola have those). Plus it is a tack driver, I shoot better with it than I did with Sigs or Berettas…and the Glock 22/23 sucks, it has a muzzle blast fit for a .44 Magnum and a handgrip only a gorilla could love.

    It is what it is and I’m glad I have mine before they all get banned and you can’t buy them anymore.

  109. I am friends with a guy who used to work for HK. He now works for a different gun company. He enlightened me to the inherent problems with HK the company:

    It’s 3 different and competing companies under one name. HK Law Enforcement, HK Military, and HK Europe. The three different HK’s compete, don’t like each other, and don’t cooperate well.

    HK doesn’t sell it’s most popular weapons to civilians because… it’s not what you think,,, they have TERRIBLE customer service, and they know it. The Germans have a different attitude towards customer service than the American companies, and they insist everything be run the German way. HK Law Enforcement wanted to branch out into the civilian market with some currently restricted weapons, but their Customer service with the weapons currently available to civilians is so bad that they figure it would destroy the company if everybody who wanted an MP5 could suddenly go out and buy one. The Americans WANT to supply adequate customer service, the Germans won’t let them. The only thing saving them at this point is their weapons are pretty reliable, and terribly expensive, so there aren’t a lot of customer service issues. I know several people who have paid over $1,200 for Kimber pistols, every one of them has had problems, but they don’t talk about it much, because who wants to admit that you paid that much for a piece of junk? HP pistols probably get some of the same effect, and are more reliable out of the box.

    My friend, even though he left HK, still thinks they are great weapons, and so do I. I have never had a malfunction with an MP5 or a UMP, and I have never even seen one with one of the weapons my team has access to. I have never seen any MP5 malfunction ever. I am on a Police SRT and have fired tens of thousands of rounds through these weapons. I’m not saying they can’t malfunction, I’m just saying that they don’t do it as often as some other popular weapons. I am not a fan of the P2000 pistol, I have seen several problems with them, but the USP and HK45 are extremely reliable and accurate. If I wasn’t allowed to carry a 1911 at my department, I would carry a USP.

  110. I have put over 25,000 rounds through my LEM USP Compact .40 and never had a malfunction. H&K did do a warranty p2000 firing pin upgrade a few years ago, but mine worked fine. II purchased an identical off duty carry USP discounted for $495 new which was a fair price. Recently, I have been dealing with their “civilian customer service department” for some SIG .357 barrels. It took about 6 months to receive them due to availability, but that was the only service issue I had with them! This is a reliable weapon if you treat like it might save your life someday!

  111. The only thing that bothers me with this is rant is this. It postulates that if you use any H&K product, you are a fanboy and only falling for their marketing.

    My question is this. Regardless of the manufacturor. If the SpecOps community can have ANYTHING they want and can purchase it, why do they consistantly buy H&K? For example, Delta, they replaced all of their M4s with the 416. Surely youn’t saying that they are swallowed up by the hype. They are are real deal. They use it for real in ways that most of us never will. Granted they have world class armorers that can keep anything in top condition. But they still chose H&K products.

    I’m just sayin’.

    Having said that, they are all way overpriced and their is a huge degree of marketing hype that plays into this. But not everyone that buys has falled for it.

    1. Consider that ATF has a large number of O2 aircraft with FLIR. Allegedly, this is for “intercepting illegal arms shipments.” Now, a shipment of guns is pretty much like any other shipment of metal, and they’re available just about anywhere, and a good US machine shop (or garage) can make them cheaper than they can be imported by the truckload. So why does ATF have O2s and FLIR?

      Because DEA does, and ATF can’t admit it’s less cool and high tech than the drug chasers.

      They have HundKs, too. Because they need them. Because all the cool agencies have them.

  112. “Do your research” – those mythical “SpecOps” teams have their gear purchased by bean-counting REMFs. The “operators” don’t have time to do procurements when they’re kicking in doors or practicing it. The bean counters buy things because they’re cool.

    As a quick example, the “SpecOps” equivalent in my agency bought an MRAP. There’s ZERO use for it. They’re astonishing imbeciles – like most “SpecOps” groups.

    The “SpecOps” community, outside of the military, is often guys who want to play military and be all “high speed low drag” without having to be in the military. They get their own little department and start buying toys. And they, being goofballs, will buy anything marketed properly. The military “SpecOps” units I’ve worked with have often proven themselves victims of their own hype (with alternating funny & painful or tragic results).

    Delta Force’s bean counters and handlers said “let’s get you some HK toys”. Actual troops are rarely part of the procurement process.

    Look at the garbage for land warrior. Look at guys who are high speed & low drag – they dump the useless gear they’re given. Ask anybody in a combat arms MOS about junk they were given they didn’t need/didn’t want/couldn’t use/wasn’t as good as what it replaced. Everybody’s seen it.

    If the HK were so grand, everyone would be going to it. It’s not.

    My gummint P2000 went through 5000 rounds until it started malfing. That’s probably about even with a Glock, less than a pre-Cohen Sig or Kimber, and even with a Beretta. Nothing fancy, just expensive.

    1. “They’re astonishing imbeciles – like most “SpecOps” groups. The “SpecOps” community, outside of the military, is often guys who want to play military and be all “high speed low drag” without having to be in the military. They get their own little department and start buying toys. And they, being goofballs, will buy anything marketed properly. The military “SpecOps” units I’ve worked with have often proven themselves victims of their own hype (with alternating funny & painful or tragic results).
      Delta Force’s bean counters and handlers said “let’s get you some HK toys”. Actual troops are rarely part of the procurement process.”

      I’m still laughing at the above quote – I gotta believe you are one tough dude – and smart! If you are calling these men stupid, who are the worlds best trained soldiers and chosen for their ability to independently analyze and engage with maximum advantage, and who have the highest test scores in the military….then that makes you REAL smart!

      However, the procurement man in Delta Force did not say “lets buy some toys” . In fact Delta Force co-developed the 416 over three years of grueling field tests. They specifically designed and requested it’s unique features. Then tested it beyond belief, as did the DOD, recently proving the truth of the design and the weapon (though the scar had a couple less stoppages, they still both owned the standard M4s) so again, the results are in and so’s the proof…you are an idiot.

      1. Furies: And that was the first time in history they actually did so.

        And what do they have? A piston-driven AR. Why, that’s NEVER been done before.

        Oh, wait, yes it has.

        It’s entirely possible Larry and I, and others here, have worked more with Spec Ops types than you have. But go ahead, summarize your experience in the field, and we’ll give you a fair listen.

  113. guns should only be used by security forces,police,army etc
    nothing manly about using guns
    but hey,guess im talking to a wall here

    1. Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion.
      But if you are going to come in here and say something that is obviously at odds with the general opinion of everyone else, you have three options:
      1. Present your case, show us why you believe what you do and in general give us the arguments you feel pest support your conclusions. In that case, we may still disagree, but we have constructively exchanged views.
      2. Shoot off some unfounded, unsubstantiated thoughts that just popped into your mind. Add things along the line of “u r like 2 stupid”. In other words, try to look like an idiot who can’t string together a sentence without help from an adult.
      3. Remember that good examples of countries where the mlitary and police are the *only* ones with guns are Burma, North Korea and Libya. Consider the state of those countries and whether you would like to move there.

    2. Guns should only be used by security forces, police, army, etc. . .

      Yeah that worked great for Hitler’s Germany, Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and the area around by the horn of africa where all those ships get hijacked.

  114. This guy sounds like a scorned angry old woman. Did HK give you an STD, got your sister pregnant and leave you four kids? That fact that a supposedly grown man can have so much hate for a company is laughable at best. The fact that you supposedly sell guns for a living makes it even worse. This dumb rant just makes you and the idiots that agree with you looks like ignorant clowns. And not only that it proves that you are the real fanboys hating a company for no apparent reason just because you don’t like their prices.

    HK makes great weapons that have never failed me and have outperformed all the other brands I’ve tried. Sure they are a little on the expensive side but you do get more quality for that extra money. And just because I prefer HK products, I’m mature enough to not hate the other brands just because I like this one. I like guns not companies and I’ll buy whatever gun I like, who makes has absolutely no bearing on my desicion.

  115. I am sorry, you are incorrect. Military specops, especially at the DEVGRU and Delta level have near complete control over what they use. Obviously at the lower levels, Rangers, etc. this is much less the case. At no point did I discuss the non military “specops” units. I would 100% agree on that as they are too busy copying others to be of use in a discussion. But those who work out in the tall grass, they use what they want. And very often, they use H&K. Nearly every Specop unit in the world uses the MP5 and has for the last 30 years. Iranian Embassy. The SAS just got suckered in by H&K’s marketing, rght? The weapons were no good, but they used them anyway because they were name brand. Wow. while there is some truth in the original rant, a good deal of it smacks of someone with an agenda that isn’t able to acknowledge anything good about something they don’t like.

  116. Don’t forget, H&K had to get involved to make the British L85 a good weapon. Beforehand, it was complete crap.

    1. Do your research, on June 10th, 2009 at 1:58 am Said:
      Don’t forget, H&K had to get involved to make the British L85 a good weapon. Beforehand, it was complete crap.


      And $36 million later it still is. What’s your point?

  117. I heard that HK is trying to poison the US water supply, by creating guns that will shoot high volumes of lead without breaking. You have been warned. Support those evil Germans at your own risk. Delta might support them, but if they get poisoned water in their canteens, they’ll kill Germany. You don’t have that option.

  118. If you really want to get a rise out of Hans and Franz, ask them how much it cost the Bundesrepublik to license the G3 design from CETME. I have a CETME, and love it. But I got the rare one that shoots to point of aim. Yes, it’s heavy. But so is my Garand. It’s ergonomics were designed for an alien. It doesn’t extract, it spits out the mangled brass when it is done with it. But I love a gun that doesn’t have a gas system at all. The system needs to be be salvaged and put into something with the ergonomics of the AR and the ease of manufacture of the AK.

  119. I’m a student at a gunsmith school… so I’ve got some experience working with several different handguns (in addition to owning several). I had bought a USP Custom Combat (.40 S&W) last November, and shot itit a few times. With my CZ-75 and my Beretta 92FS, I can keep a good tight group out at 15 yds, but with the USP, it’s like I only shoot the left half of the target, in a perfect half circle! Every time I shot it, it was like that. I think it has to do with the plastic trigger that flexes… my 92FS has a plastic trigger, and it works fine. I hear the USPs do better with the match (overtravel-adjustable) triggers, but I went and traded it straight up for a Colt Combat Commander and never looked back.

    Well that’s not entirely true, it’s still in the used pistol case at the shop I traded it… for $970… been there for almost 5 months now… 😉

    H&K ain’t all that. There are plenty of guns that cost half as much and are just as good – if not better. Hell you can get CPO SIG pistols for $550ish!

  120. Ah so true I used to work for a medium sized PD as an Armorer/Rangemaster and have been to HK school several tiems for the MP5,roller lock rifles, trigger group, g36. All you say is correct, they don’t really like LE I had some smg’s BO for just a couple of extractor springs and F/P springs, stupid stuff. and after 6 months I gave up ordering them and called the instructor from the school and he sent me some to get the guns running. I ahve had some issues with USP 40’s with frame cracks near the rear of the gunz and it took several months to get resolved. THE USP TRIGGERS SUUUCCK. the only thing I can say good about HK is that the mp5 is rock solid and shoots great! Suck to clean though. WE bought Colt 16″ semis and never looked back. Hans and Franz are Crazy mad in the class room 2 frickin days on trigger groups for eh mp5. all because of the lousey burst trigger groups. easy problem to fix, if you have them in the armory get rid of them problem solved!

  121. Yeah…. they treat civilians like crap. When I was in the Marines a couple years ago I was hoping that the corps would adopt the HK45 because the M9 is weak IMO. Now I hope the US Gov tells HK to eat a dick. They want Gov contracts and don’t care about civilians. I am selling my USP 45

  122. I am a former Marine, and over many years have had the opportunity to shoot a number of weapons. I recently bought a HKP30L after a long review of S&W M&P and Springfield XD along with a few others. The HK turned out to be the best ergonomically design weapon for me I have ever held. After firing it a few times since the purchase I am in love with it. I am left handed so that was a consideration also. I love its accuracy, its low recoil, it ease of cleaning, it appears to take any ammo, the mag release is great, the 15 round mag is great. The price is high, no doubt about it. I got some off from my shooting range as a member so that helped. But I would have bought it anyway especially knowing what I know now.

  123. I’ve owned 4 hk usp 45 pistols. All work flawless and are worth their cost. I’ve had two glocks and both were junk! I just got a new model 21 and the damn thing jammed 4 times with 100 rounds ran though it. Probaly ammo glock peeps will say. Hk you can ran any ammo no jam saved..simply put…

  124. Just read the article, funny AND true. The XM8 has been improved a bit, but I’d still prefer a Magpul ACR. I don’t really see what’s so good about the XM8 in the first place; it’s basically a plastic G36 with a different sighting system, collapsible stock and polygonal rifling.
    The MP7 is H&K’s answer to the P90 after FN showed them up with the FAL… the P90 is still better.

  125. I’ve never shot an HK (outside of video games), so I can’t comment on them… but that was still one hilarious read. XD

  126. If you get a sneer from HK for wanting to handle an MP5 at the shot show, it’s because you don’t have a class 3 license. If you do not have a class 3, you cannot handle a fully automatic weapon. To have disdain for someone following FFL laws is moronic.

    IF the MP5 was so cheap and you hold it with such disdain, then why whine about not being able to handle one on a forum? And if the MP5 was such a piece of crap, then why do most tactical teams use one?

    Not that I care about the MP5, but I do own a USPC, which is one of the best built handguns on the planet. Let me enlighten you as to why they are overpriced pieces of shit. Unlike the Glock, which has a few stamped tool steel parts internally. All of the HK USP & USPC internals are EDM wire cut, tool steel parts, that are machined and then heat treated to the A class scale of RC hardness. Not the C or D class as the overly hyped Austrian counter part.

    Unlike the overly hyped Austrian pistol, HK does not have cheap plastic parts such as the spring loaded bearing, extractor depressor plunger, spacer sleeve, spring cups, firing pin channel liner. Which will melt and fuse if exposed to too much heat. Thus if you are in a desert situation like Afghanistan or Iraque you have a great possibility of this pistol malfunctioning on you than a USP. The S.O.C.O.M. uses a USP style pistol on steroids called the Mark 23. There is a reason that this pistol is used and not a Glock, S&W, Beretta, Colt and such. It’s because none of the other pistols were able to pass their stringent endurance and reliability tests. To my knowledge, no Glock frame has withstood 30,000 rounds of constant fire with +P ammunition.

    So yes, HK may be overpriced in your opinion, but you do get what you pay for. And if you are happy with your Glock or Taurus then I wish you well and happiness. But please realize that your disdain for such a well made piece of engineering is only due to your own ignorance of the products.

    1. Congrats Emile. You’re reply was so full of crap that it earned its very own post! That hasn’t happened in awhile. 🙂

    2. You’re kidding, right?

      “Class 3 license”?

      Look, you want to buy a transferrable, fully automatic H&K (or any other NFA-regulated death blaster, INCLUDING a 155 howitzer), it’s a simple formula:

      Price of gun


      $200 tax stamp


      Any fees you end up paying if teh gun has to be transferred to an NFA dealer in your state (like $200/pop for every transfer where a dealer is at both ends of the transaction)

      That’s it. Oh — one exception. . . teh TRANSFER tax on an “AOW” is only $5 — all other NFA jobs (like machineguns, silencers, etc.) are $200.

      No magical, mystical Class 3 license. It doesn’t exist.

      I think you’re thinking of an FFL/SOT — Which Correia DID at the time of this post. That’s the license array that allows you to be an NFA DEALER.

      Don’t need it to lawfully by an NFA gun. You just need to be 21 years old, able to legally possess a gun, period, and have the purchase be legal in YOUR STATE. Plus the aforementioned paperwork and one time tax payment.

      1. Sorry, one slight edit of a typo:

        “like $200/pop for every transfer where a deal is _NOT_ at both ends of the transaction”

    3. You smelly finger.

      One does not require a “class 3 license” to merely handle an automatic firearm.

      Only when you dealer in such firearms a license is required.

  127. Emile: Actually, your ignorance is showing.
    As long as there is at least one person in immediate control of the Class III, anyone else may handle it. It’s amusing you would think otherwise.

    As for the “overly hyped Austrian pistol,” in this ongoing, decade long, real world test, it shits all over the HundK:

    But if the Fine Tchermahn engineers would like to match up, I’m sure Gaston would be agreeable.


    I pulled the USP compact out of the bucket [of sand] (it was loaded but decocked), pulled the trigger, hammer falls but no bang. I pull the trigger again and still no bang. Not a squib, and not a delay. I cycle the slide and eject the cartridge, but it fails to go into battery. I repeat, while shaking out sand, until the magazine is empty. After removing the slide blowing the frame out with compressed air I repeat the test.

    wont lock

    Back in the bucket, shake, attempt to shoot – exact same results. Field strip and blow out with compressed air. This was attempted 4 times, with 4 different magazines. The first shot did go off once, but did not lock up for the following round. Again it required fieldstripping to function.

    OK, it doesn’t work in sand. For a different twist, I took a UPS mag and a glock mag and threw them in the bucket and shook them up.

    I picked up the 21 mag, loaded the pistol, pulled the trigger 13 times. I then picked up the USP mag, pulled the trigger once and it went bang. The slide failed to close on the second round. Ejecting the 2nd round partially inserted the 3rd but also a bunch of sand. The USP mags have basically a shovel extending for the slide stop, which proved them useless combined with the sand.

    This USP compact went bang every time clean, so it works fine. I would never trust it though, as a carry piece.


    Yes, FINE engineering. Is that what you pay for? Or maybe the marketing is what you pay for? A gun that works great on an air conditioned indoor range?

  128. Do you know anything about machining? There are different grades of rockwell hardness for steel, when a company states that their precision tool steel pieces are have a rockwell hardness of 52-55 they do not state if it’s C, B, or A, you have to ask.

    The process to a fully automatic firearm is a little more complicated that what you are describing. Yes there is a tax stamp but to get a Class III you have to undergo an extensive background check, more than your average run of the mill FFL form to purchase a firearm.
    SOCOM may hate the USP but they still use them. 1911″s LOL, so far no 1911 or Glock has withstood any of SOCOM’s torture or endurance testing.

    The Mark 23 is the most extensively tested hand gun in modern firearm history. That is a fact. But with some people, it’s like arguing with fundamentalist christians, there is no reasoning with belief.

    Believe what you like, but what I stated was fact, what I see in response is BS, no facts to back up what you are saying. What model 1911 does SOCOM use? Where are the torture test results of said model? Answer, there is none because SOCOM indefinitely postponed any new testing for replacing the Mark 23.


      Do you have any idea what that “extensive” check actually involves?

      It simply means they check ALL the records to answer two, simple, basic, questions:

      1. Is this person at least 21 years old?

      2. Is this person legally allowed to possess ANY kind of firearm?

      Even the question of , “Is this person allowed to own THIS kind of firearm in HIS state?” isn;t answered by the ATF’s “extensive background check” — which is why they have what is called the “CLEO signature requirement”.

      As for the MK23 being the “most extensively tested handgun in history”? Please. Study the testing history of the 1911.

      As for SOCOM being so happy with the MK23 they refuse to consider anything else? Please. Explain why SOCOM has initiated no less that THREE replacement programs, all of which have been cancelled becuase of FUNDING from DoD, not a fialure of need as perceived by SOCOM.

  129. Emily,

    I have 26 years experience heat treating, and 24 years military.

    I believe I know a little about heat treating. A steel at Rockwell 52-55 will be on the C scale. It would not be on the A scale–for thin, hard materials–or the B scale–for soft metals. That’s the summary for complete novices or wannabes. A Rockwell B of 52-55 is so soft as to not even register on the C scale—HRC 20, the softest steel can be reliably measured, is a 97 on the B scale, and even 0 HRC would be 80 HRB. A 55 on the HRA, if a direct comparison were possible, would approximately be 4 HRC, softer than a dead soft annealed rivet. See? You still know nothing.

    Larry recently retired as a Class III dealer, so do please tell him what he was doing wrong all those years.

    And if you followed the link I posted, a common GLOCK shit all over the HundK, which jammed repeatedly. I can “extensively test” an Airsoft gun in my living room. Proves nothing.

    No one said HundKs were bad, just that they were massively overpriced, hard to get, and had cheerleaders (such as yourself) who’ll perform obscene acts rather than admit they’re not forged by Sauron himself in the Fires of Mount Doom, as Larry put it.

    Okay, I guess a few people said they were bad, but that’s true of anything.

    SOCOM wants a DA pistol with external hammer and safety, and preferably grip safety, which is why neither the GLOCK nor the 1911…nor the USP…is up for tests at present. And it’s still a fact that while the SOCOM HAS Mk23s, they mostly sit in arms rooms unused.

    And even if they used them daily, it wouldn’t change the complaint of the post, which is that HundKs are hard for civilians to get even where legal–bad marketing–hyped to nose-picking fanbois such as yourself through computer games, and massively overpriced for the workmanship actually involved. re: that last, it’s true of almost anything with a military contract. Knights makes a .308 AR10 clone that’s 3-4 times the price of its competitors models. Ah, but they have a military contract, which makes them uber cool.

    The HundKs are massively overpriced, overhyped, overadvertised guns, sometimes better and sometimes inferior to their competitors’ models, but with some people, it’s like arguing with fundamentalist christians, there is no reasoning with belief.

    I’ve even seen HundK fanbois make idiotic statements about how “hard” the steel is, how it’s tested on a special “A” scale that’s better than the C scale, and how the plastic on HundKs won’t melt while exactly the same plastic on other guns is a disaster, when no such examples exist.

    Please go play with your friends now.

  130. I have several years experience as a prototype maker, machinist, and armorer for a state tactical team. I simply said that there is more than one scale for Rockwell hardness. Which in your own words have confirmed this is true. And companies with a play on words, do use the other scales for stating their parts meet certain criteria for hardness. That is why when you place an order for stock you have to ask which scale they used for the hardness rating on their part.

    Also the 1911 is disqualified by SOCOM for other reasons. SOCOM states that parts must be interchangeable and that they can be swapped out in the field. Requiring no special fitting of parts. The 1911 fails this in at least 6 areas if you include the slide to frame fit. Barrel bushing has to be fit to the barrel and slide. Barrel has to be fit to the slide in the lug engagement area, and to the frame where the link and pin are. Also the internal extractor has to be fitted and tuned for each pistol. These operations cannot be done out in the field.

    Also here is what you have to have to get your Class 3.

    Federal Firearms License types

    Type Usage
    Type 1 Title 1 dealer or gunsmith other than destructive devices. Can also deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 3 tax stamp.
    Type 2 Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker
    Type 3 Licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms
    Type 6 Licensed manufacturer of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition
    Type 7 Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, who can also act as dealer, other than Destructive Devices, ammunition and ammunition components other than Armor Piercing ammunition. Can also manufacturer & deal in Title II NFA firearms with class 2 tax stamp.
    Type 8 Importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition. Can also import Title II NFA firearms with class 1 tax stamp.
    Type 9 Dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 (can act as an NFA Dealer) and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Broker under ITAR/D-TRADE. To deal/broker any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Dealer of High Explosives
    Type 10 Manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, manufacturer of NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition (can act as a dealer). Requires payment as an SOT Class 2 (can act as an NFA Dealer) and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Manufacturer under ITAR/D-TRADE. To manufacture any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Type 20 Manufacturer of High Explosives.
    Type 11 Importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, ammunition for Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition. Requires payment as an SOT Class 1 and registration with the US Dept. of State as a Broker under ITAR/D-TRADE. To import any DD with an explosives content (i.e. Flash-Bangs), requires an additional FFL; Importer of High Explosives.

    pecial Occupational Tax Classes

    Class Usage
    Class 1 importer of NFA firearms
    Class 2 manufacturer & dealer of NFA firearms
    Class 3 dealer of NFA firearms
    To get a Class 1 SOT status, you need an importer FFL, which includes Type 8, 11
    To get a Class 2 SOT status, you need a manufacturer FFL, which includes Type 7, 10
    To get a Class 3 SOT status, you need a dealer or manufacturer FFL which includes Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11

    What are NFA Weapons?

    There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law,
    title 1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns
    (rifles and shotguns), handguns, firearm frames or receivers, and
    most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
    NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
    Firearms Act (26 USC sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA. Title 1 is
    generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 USC sec. 921 et seq.).
    NFA weapons are sometimes called class 3 weapons, because a class
    3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA weapons.

    These weapons may also be further regulated by states or
    localities, and while these weapons can be legally owned under
    federal law, some states and localities further regulate
    ownership or prohibit it (see below). The NFA Branch of ATF
    administers the National Firearms Registration and Transfer
    Record, which necessarily encompasses most of the NFA regulation.

    NFA weapons are: machine guns, sound suppressors (a.k.a.
    silencers), short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles,
    destructive devices and “any other weapons”. A machine gun is any
    gun that can fire more than one shot with a single pull of the
    trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a combination of
    parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set of parts for
    converting a gun into a machine gun. A silencer is any device
    for muffling the gunshot of a portable firearm, or any part
    exclusively designed or intended for such a device (see
    discussion below). A short barreled shotgun is any shotgun
    (shoulder fired, smooth bore) with a barrel of less than 18″ or
    an overall length of less than 26″, or any weapon made from a
    shotgun falling into the same length parameters. A short
    barreled rifle is a rifle (shoulder fired, rifled bore) with a
    barrel length of less than 16″, or an overall length of less
    than 26″, or any weapon made from a rifle falling into the same
    length parameters (like a pistol made from a rifle). In
    measuring barrel length you do it from the closed breech to the
    muzzle, see 27 CFR sec. 179.11. To measure overall length do so
    along, “the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon
    measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.”
    27 CFR sec. 179.11. On a folding stock weapon you measure with
    the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily detachable,
    and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder. A
    destructive device (DD) is a explosive, incendiary or poison gas
    weapon, or any firearm with a bore over 1/2″, with exceptions for
    sporting shotguns, among other things (see discussion below).
    Any other weapons (AOW’s) are a number of things; smooth bore
    pistols, any pistol with more than one grip,(but see below)
    gadget type guns (cane gun, pen gun) and shoulder fired weapons
    with both rifled and smooth bore barrels between 12″ and 18″,
    that must be manually reloaded (see discussion below). These
    definitions are simplified, to see if a specific gun is a title 1
    or 2 firearm one needs to refer to the specific definition under
    the statute(s), and possibly consult with the Technology Branch
    of ATF. There is also case law on the issue of whether a
    specific item falls into one of these categories.

    Owning or making an NFA weapon

    It is illegal for anyone to have possession of an NFA weapon
    that is not registered to them in the NFA Registry. It is also
    not possible for anyone, except government entities, to register an
    existing NFA weapon that is not registered, except immediately
    after one is made by a class 2 NFA manufacturer. An individual
    otherwise able to own any gun under federal law can receive and
    own any NFA weapon (local law permitting, ATF cannot approve a
    transfer where federal, state or local law would be violated by
    the transferee possessing the weapon in question, see 26 USC sec.
    5812(a)(6)) on a Form 4, “Application for Tax Paid Transfer and
    Registration of Firearm”. Non-FFL holders may only purchase an
    NFA weapon from a dealer or individual within their own state.
    If the weapon is located out of state it must be transferred to a
    class 3 dealer within the state, before transfer to the non FFL
    purchaser. C&R FFL holders (type 03) may purchase C&R NFA guns
    from out of state dealers and individuals. Type 01 FFL holders
    may purchase any fully transferrable (no dealer samples, see
    below) NFA weapon, from an out of state source. If the FFL
    holder is an individual he must submit fingerprints, photograph,
    and the law enforcement certification.

    The transfer involves paying the transfer tax, which is $200
    for all the NFA weapons, except AOW’s for which the tax is a
    mere $5. Individuals also have to get one of several specified
    local chief law enforcement officers to sign the form (see the
    section on the law enforcement certification for more
    information), submit their fingerprints in duplicate, and attach
    photos of the transferee to the form. While the transfer tax is
    levied by law on the transferor (seller), in practice the
    transferee (buyer) is expected to pay the tax. Transfers to
    individuals tend to take at least 4 months, although subsequent
    transfers can be quicker.

    Or you can make any NFA weapon, except for machine guns (see
    below), by filing a Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a
    Firearm”, and paying the $200 making tax, which applies to all of
    these weapons, including AOW’s. You may not make the proposed
    weapon until the Form 1 is returned to you approved. The law
    enforcement certification, photos and fingerprints also apply to
    Form 1’s, and in fact to any transaction to an individual.
    Additionally the manufacturer of any NFA weapon, including an
    individual making one on a Form 1 must mark the receiver of the
    weapon with the maker’s name and city and state. NFA Branch can
    grant exemptions from this for DD’s. All types of corporations,
    including corporate type 01 FFL holders, need not do the
    certification, photo and fingerprint requirements. Any of the
    forms listed, and the fingerprint cards, are available for free
    from ATF, either in Washington, D.C. or your local office.

    The original of the paperwork, particularly any that have
    tax stamps on them (Form 1 or 4) should be kept in a safe place.
    ATF can demand to see the form (see below on your 4th amendment
    rights). On a tax paid transfer, ATF puts a tax stamp, like a
    postage stamp (or like the one that caused the American colonists
    to take up arms), on the document. You paid $200 (or $5) for it,
    and it is worth that. It is unwise to lose the original form.
    They should be kept in a safe deposit box. Tax exempt forms
    (Form 2, 3, 5, 6, 10) have no tax stamp, and a copy of the form
    from ATF, should the original be lost, will be fine. ATF can
    give you a new tax stamp should you lose one, but expect a hard
    time, and they have discretion in doing it. It is not unheard
    of for ATF to have no record in their computer of a weapon
    registered to you. The paperwork can avoid a lot of hassles.
    Additionally, if the gun in question is a machine gun, not having
    the paperwork can lead to being charged with a violation of 18
    USC sec. 922(o). A federal circuit court of appeals has ruled
    (U.S. v. Just, 74 F.3d 902 (8th Cir. 1996)) that sec. 922(o)
    prohibits possessing all machine guns, and it is an affirmative
    defense to such a charge that the weapon was legally possessed
    before it took effect. It is up to the defendant to prove such a
    defense, but usually by a lower evidentiary standard than the
    government needs to prove to show a criminal violation (usually
    preponderance of the evidence versus beyond a reasonable doubt).
    It is not up to the government to prove the weapon was not
    registered, for a charge under sec. 922(o). If you don’t have
    the paperwork, and it isn’t in ATF’s computer, (it is likely they
    will check, even though they don’t have to prove non-
    registration, they don’t want someone to wave a registration form
    in their face during a trial) you can have a serious problem.

    As you can see it is a little more complicated than just paying a tax stamp as you and other so clearly and deliberately misinform others.

    1. Are you f’ing kidding me? You claimed that it was somehow illegal for people to touch an MP5 at SHOT Show, and I said that it wasn’t, so you cut and pasted a giant explanation of the NFA laws (most of which has nothing to do with the post at hand). And I’m the one that is misinforming people? Okay, douchebag, where in that FAQ that you obviously copied from somewhere else (because he speaks better English), would it prohibit people from handling an NFA weapon at a trade show or shooting event?

      Oh, it isn’t in there. And by the way, I was on a #7 FFL for three years. Yes, for the sake of brevity, it is basically filling out some paperwork and paying a $200 tax to purchase an NFA item. When I was an accountant, and somebody asked about how to pay their taxes, I told them to fill out a 1040, I didn’t cut and paste the entire tax code.

      And SOCOM isn’t a single magical unit of Jack Bauers and Ahnolds, it is a command. Think of it as a big office building with a bunch of generals and clerks (go clerks!). A whole bunch of units fall under its auspices. Within the real world (where clincial testing doesn’t mean shit, and glocks don’t melt, and there aren’t any lava men) among those various units, the vast vast majority are using Beretta M9s, because that is what was there. There are 1911s in use also (because there were some there too). There are also the new ones procured by the high-speed Marines (not sure if they fall under SOCOM or not, because I don’t claim to be a danger ranger like the average HK user, but you can read Pat Roger’s extensive articles on the subject in SWAT magazine). And I also know of procurements of 1911s from some other super-dooper units (because I happened to be touring the factory at the time they were shipping them, and I bought the exact same gun for myself) but those aren’t supposed to get flaunted all over the gun magazines, so this particular company didn’t advertise it.

      And even then, for the units that do have Mk23s sititng in arms rooms, of all the military people that I’ve known and worked with, I’ve met or spoken with exactly two that had any knowledge of anyone who ever actually used the thing for anything other than screwing around on the range. So regardless of the testing (which you know about because the HK Marketing Department told you so), they aren’t in wide use. At all. Which should probably tell you something.

      Apparently your knowledge of metals goes beyond my friend Mike, who posted above you, and who has made a living with that stuff for two decades, but that is to be expected, because you are a “prototype maker, machinist, and armorer for a state tactical team”. OOOOOoooohhhhh AAaaaahhhhhhh.

      Well, for such an expert, you sure are full of crap. 🙂

    2. Emile,

      You stated you need a Class 3 license to TOUCH an NFA item at a gunshow.

      You have stated the FFL/SOT requirements to be an NFA dealer.

      Not the same at all.

      You Google-Fu is weak, fanboi.

  131. Nice copy paste. Your original reference to heat treating was
    quote: that are machined and then heat treated to the A class scale of RC hardness. Not the C or D class as the overly hyped Austrian counter part./quote

    Since your copy paste confirms my response that the scales are not comparable, and A isn’t used for tool steel mechanical components, and since D is not either, and the scales are not a “class,” what was the point of this stupid statement? If you actually knew ANYTHING about heat treating, you would never have made the statement. “The A scale iz zuperior to ze C scale!” Actually, no, it’s not. Nor is harder desirable for gun parts. Properly treated is desirable.

    Your other statement was:
    quote:it’s because you don’t have a class 3 license. If you do not have a class 3, you cannot handle a fully automatic weapon./quote

    There is no “Class 3 License.” There is no need to have ANY license to handle a sample in the presence of the owner or dealer.

    So again, your copy paste simply supports what Larry, I and several others told you, and your statement makes clear you knew nothing about the subject when you said it. Your statement was a whining excuse about HundK’s alleged superiority.

    Force Recon may have stopped using their Wilson and GI 1911s by now–they were old guns to start with in many cases, and yes, required hand fitting for accuracy. It’s unlikely you’re going to see any unit doing depot level maintenance in the field. Too much weight and too many parts. It’s entirely possible that some spec writer would like that ideal–the way it works is you ask for the impossible and accept 25%.

    None of which is relevant to the stated points that:

    HundK are insanely expensive for what they are, and
    they don’t like selling to civilians, because you suck, and they hate you. Even though it would be very lucrative.

    And in the real world test I referenced, a GLOCK did, in fact, shit all over a USP which jammed constantly, and did fire 150,000 rounds without failing, which pretty well destroys your generalizations that it’s impossible for anything to be better than HundK.

    If I could get one at a reasonable price–$300-$500–I’d consider one.

    The MP5 is crap compared to relics like the Sterling and PPSh, demonstrated by the fact that the latter destroy MP5s at matches. And pretty much anyone who’s fired a variety goes for the Sterling or PPSh. Matter of taste, of course. However, it’s not used, nor desired by “Every” tac team on Earth. Not even 10%.

    The FAL was always better than the G3. No one with a brain argues otherwise, and the sheer volume of production backs it up. The FAL is “The Right Arm of The Free World” and the G3 is “That gun copied from the Spanish CETME, used by the Germans and the Turks.”

    If you want to extol the virtues of the G36, it failed US Army initial tests for its plastic excretions, and is mechanically a cheap copy of an AR18. Makes me wonder if German engineers are capable of original development anymore.

    Their attempt at the OICW failed, as has everyone else’s attempt, and the XM8 proved even worse than the G36.

    HundK is leftover nationalistic pride, all bluster, with little to claim except the mystique of being hard for you and your friends to touch, because you are not worthy.

    Now, I know Larry has a book to finish, and so do I, and he even used your original comments for a brand new post full of mockery, if you haven’t seen it yet. But I’m unlikely to respond. You’ve amused me with your ignorance and outrage, but work takes precedence.

  132. I believe that you having to have in your possession the tax stamp before your purchase says it all. And some state and local laws do require you to have the stamp even before you can handle an NFA item. If it was so easy as you claim, then everyone who owns a firearm could get one. Simple fact is, not everyone can qualify for one.

    As far as A scale, C scale, or class, not all steel bar stock, flat stock, cold rolled, hot rolled, has a C hardness. Most of the time the hardness scale is applied to the part after it is machined and heat treated. And depending on the size and thickness of the part, a different scale or class will be used. Another simple fact you choose to ignore.

    As far as the G36, AR15, I would not own one. I prefer an AK 47 or SKS, which is stamped and more reliable than anything the US or anyone else has put out.

    And yes you stated a Glock test. Another simple fact you cannot ignore is that if the Glock was the be all end all of semi-automatic pistol designs, then every police department, tac team, military outfit, and other law enforcement agencies would be using it. Truth be told not everyone does, because the Glock has failed certain reliability, and endurance testing procedures. Fact: every police department in Europe uses a CZ. Federal tac team uses the Springfield TRP Pro, La SWAT uses the Kimber SIS, US military and Nato use the M9, US police departments use SIG, Glock, HK, and S&W M&P are the norm. I believe I mentioned certain parts in the Glock in my original post that are cheap plastic that will melt if or break under rapid fire or harsh hot conditions.

    But if you believe that your Glock is the best sidearm out there, then you are free to believe that. There is no reasoning with belief. Fact is, there are other designs such as the Styer, CZ, HK, SIG, and Walther Germany that are superior to the Glock. And all have great customer service in my experience.

    1. Emile,

      You’re quite simply factually wrong.

      You DO NOT need the tax stamp before PURCHASE, you need it before TRANSFER. Just like, when buying a “normal” handgun from a dealer, you need to fill out teh Form 4473 before the transfer, but you can freely finger-fuck the piece all you (and the dealer) want before that. Including test firing it. (Good luck getting a dealer to let you test fire a new gun. But legally, you can do it if teh dealer says OK.)

      In fact, if you had anything to do with the NFA world, you would already know this. The buyer pays for the gun in full, and ONLY THEN do they even fill out the paperwork. Becuase as soon as the paperwork is ATF approved, the seller can no longer retain possession — even if the purchase check bounced.

      Holding the gun while in the presense of the registered owner is OK. Hell, SHOOTING the gun while in teh presense of teh registered owner is OK.

      I have held and fired a registered MG despite not being the registered owner, in the presense of two ATF agents (NFA enforcement types, not booze hunters). They knew it wasn’t my gun — they also knew the registered owner was right there. No problem.

      Yes, LEGALLY, anyone who is 21 years old and can legally possess a Title I (i.e., “normal” GCA-regulated guns like a .38 revolver) can, under US federal law, buy and possess a machinegun.

      The law is quite clear — ALL they are checking is to make sure you are not a “prohibited person”, which means the same thing in the NFA world as it does in the GCA world. If you do not qualify under federal law to buy a machinegun, you don’t qualify to buy a handgun, either.

      Your STATE may have additional restrictions, but I’m happy to live in a Free State, where the only requirement is that, if I acquire a machinegun, I have 24 hours to tell the State Police I have it. (Not ask them for permission — simply TELL them. IIRC, it’s a pre-NFA law still on the books here. Unlike the ATF form, the state form is a single sheet of paper- no tax, fee, fingerprints, or photo involved.)

      What stops most people from playing the NFA game is MONEY.

      $4,000 for a goddamned STEN gun.

      $3,000 for a bloody MAC10.

      These two guns used to sell for LESS than the registration tax, before teh 1986 freeze.

      $15,000 for an M16. Used to be able to order it direct from Colt for under $500.

      That’s the purchase price alone. Not because MGs are inherently expensive, but because the supply of them was cut off in May 1986.

    2. Nice try at backtracking there, Emile. Well, not really nice, but I’m feeling charitable.

      You originally said that people couldn’t handle an MP5 at a trade show without violating the law, and I believe you used the word “moronic” to question that.

      Well, moron, since you came back, and quoted a bunch of crap about how to be an NFA DEALER. Yes, it is basically that easy to purchase an NFA weapon. If you live in a state where it is legal, and you can afford it, and you can pass the check to buy a regular gun, you can buy an NFA item. For most of the US, this is no big deal. The main issue is waiting for the paperwork to come back from the government.

      Nothing, no law, zip, zilch, would prevent somebody from handling an NFA item at SHOT Show (including Florida or Nevada state law) But, wait, I thought you were an expert armorer/designer/Q for a bunch of snake eating operators… You should know that.

      And since I’m not a fanboi, I could care less about the Glock. I don’t have any self esteem invested in what brand of gun that I carry or what kind of testing it passed (according to its marketing department), I only care that I can outshoot you with it. So I don’t know what the hell point you’re trying to make there.

      (except the ratio of people carrying Glock vs. HK in an official capacity is probably something like 10 to 1, but I digress).

      And you’re just as full of shit about material science as you are NFA law. You’ve done some googling since first trying to pick this fight, but your original comment remains a bunch of nonsense, regardless of how you spin it.

      1. Larry,

        I wonder how he’d feel at knowing that ATF, FBI, and the SOCOM elements routinely let people, including little kids, handle their NFA weapons at shows.

        And those are guns that, BY LAW, cannot ever be transferred to a civilian.

    3. “. . .I prefer an AK 47 or SKS, which is stamped . . . ”

      Neither of these two weapons is stamped. Both are MILLED out of a big assed chunk of steel, leaving something like 80% or more of the steel on the grounds as chips.

      The AKM is stamped. Not teh AK47.

      Learn the terminology before trying to pretend to hang with the big dogs. (I’ll admit that I’M not a “Big Dog” in relation to Mike Z. Williamson or Larry Correia. But I cna sling the lingo and understand which end the dangerous things come out. AND I know a little bit about weapons testing, having been paid in uniform and out to do so for the military.)

      I’ll leave you to your rousing Counterstrike marathon session now.

    4. 60% of US All Police Departments use Glock 22 (40 cal)
      See Massad Ayoob Gun article.

      Other PDs use Glock 19 and Glock 17 in 9mm.
      Thats alot of market share, not to mention Glocks Worldwide presence in Asia, Europe, Middle East.

      Those that dont use Glock, and Euro PD forces primarily require an external safety, Glock doenst offer one.

      Some US Police forces have issues with affirmative- action police candidates, shooting themselves without a safety.
      NATO used CZ again as it has an external safety.

      For the money, Glock 17/17/22 is about as fine a weapon as you can get.
      Same goes for Ruger and CZ.
      I like Sigs but they are pricey and quality isnt what it was.

    5. Since you brought up “US military and Nato use the M9”, I figured I might point out that you’ve just proved Correia45’s and others talking point about how little input the actual soldiers have over the political purchase process.

      We “The government pencil pushers” still went and bought the piece of crap M9’s after WE “The IB soldiers at Benning” broke just about every dammed one of them during testing and begged to stick with the M1911A1.

      However, in the name of good politics, bridge building, cost savings and ammo compatibility amongst NATO countries, we still got tied to that miserable, underpowered, crack prone piece of Italian shit-sandwich.

  133. Really do want to go there. Big Dogs??? Not all Ak47’s or SKS’s are milled? The Norinco’s are stamped with hardened steel inserts.
    Now, I know why Hanz and Franz at the show did not allow you, Larry, and other to handle the MP5. Let’s not forget that management reserves the right rule, which I see was well applied by them.

    First you make it sound as if you can go into any Federal building with your form and $200 and you can get your stamp to buy NFA items. You make it sound as if there is no finger printing, back ground checks, or submission of forms in duplicate along with your $200 dollars. Or that you have to go through this process each and every time you wish purchase your NFA item.

    Yes, I can clearly see why Hanz and Franz were so reluctant to let you handle an MP5. But I don’t know what I’m talking about, when I say your local sheriff has to finger print you, run a back ground check, and that the Feds will run your finger prints again once you turn in all your forms, pictures, and money. That is, if your sheriff will approve you having an NFA item to begin with. But I don’t know what I’m saying. At least I was lucky enough to have Hanz and Franz let me handle the MP5 without incident. But again, I don’t what I’m saying, or doing. You’re the expert. Yeah right. Give me a break.

    1. Emile, your lack of reading comprehension (or perhaps English) is showing.

      I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about in that first bit. I love AKs. I shot competition with an AK for many years, and once took 2nd in a state rifle comp using a Vepr, where everyone else in the top 10 was shooting an AR variant. I run whatever I shoot well with, and don’t attach my self esteem to any particular company.

      As for management not letting me handle the MP5s, my shop had two of the things. So I don’t really know where you’re going there either. Especially since that wasn’t in the original post. (maybe it was in the French translation?)

      Oh my gosh! I left out fingerprinting! OH NOES!! (I also didn’t attach a PDF of the form, with highlighting showing where to sign everything! I must be MISLEADING people!)

      Somehow that still doesn’t have anything to do with your original thing about how people aren’t allowed to touch HK weapons… So you’ve already proved you don’t know the laws, metalurgy, or anything about actual guns. Keep on digging. You’re on a roll. Maybe you can google up something else and post it here to try again?

    2. Emile,

      That’s funny you bring up the Norincos.

      Given that I have owned and sold both the Norico SKS and teh semiauto AK47 variant they used to import.

      Never seen a stamped SKS receiver. Ever. In fact, the milling marks are VERY apparant in almost every SKS (including non-Chinese versions).

      Of course, the fact that the entire ComBloc world used essentially the same tooling to produce them may have something to do with that. But then, that’s esoteric knowledge that takes such awesome research skills as 10 minutes on Google to discover. . .

      Larry (nor anyone here) NEVER indicated that you just “go into any Federal building with your form and $200 and you can get your stamp to buy NFA items”. Nor did anyone here imply that that single stamp would do for any number of NFA items.

      Quite the opposite.

      Yes, you have to go through the whole dreary process for each and every NFA item you wish to buy for yourself. (Dealers have a MUCH streamlined process for guns purchased in the course of business, but that’s a different story. That’s why they pay the big bucks for the FFL/SOT combo. To do business.)

      Guess what? As far as ATf is concerned, the application to transfer an NFA firearm INCLUDES the fingerprints, photos, and CLEO signature — they’re part of the form in ATF’s opinion. But it doesn;t change a damned thing about what ATF does with the info.

      ALL they check is whether you are 21 years old, and a “prohibited person”. That’s it. there is no magic special clearance you need. Just be allowed to own a gun AT ALL, be 21, and you can legally buy a machinegun.

      Your sheriff (or other CLEO) DOES NOT have to run a background check. All he has to do is fingerprint you and sign a letter saying as far as he knows, you are not prohibited. (And if you do the incorporation route, you can skip that, too.)

      In fact, your own STATE cannot prohibit you from owning a machinegun — they can only prohibit you from possessing one inside the state. So, if you can legally acquire one elsewhere, you can own it.

      OK, I’m a softie. Rather than have you go nuts guessing, here’s a couple of common cases:

      1. You bought the gun in your state of residence, but then moved to a state where they don’t allow machineguns. No problem — you can LEAVE the gun in the first state, so long as it is secured. Last I checked, ATF said a safe deposit box was a good method of securing it. You can go shoot it whenever you go visit your home state.

      2. You own property in two different states. Whenever you are actually residing in a state, you may LEGALLY acquire firearms (including machineguns) in that state. So, if you live in New York, but you keep a condo in Florida, when you’re staying at the condo in Florida, you can buy and possess a machinegun. . . just don’t bring it back to New York. Yes, you CAN have two states of residency — you cannot be registered to VOTE in two states.

    3. BTW, Emile,

      In the entire history of the 1934 National Firearms Act, NOT ONE CASE has been found where a person was denied permission to possess an NFA “firearm” (not even super-secret squirrel magical HK MP5s) by ATF because their sheriff wouldn’t sign off on it. many cases where “prohibited persons” were denied, or where state law doesn’t permit it — but NOT ONE where Sheriff Rosco P. Coltrane simply said, “Well, one o’them Duke boys don’t NEED a machinegun.”

      Not one case. If you DO know of a case, please tell — the ENTIRE NFA community is interested.

      If your sheriff will not sign, you can go find another “CLEO” (ATF acronym, means Chief Law Enforcement Officer) — like teh head of your state police. If you cannot think of anyone who you haven;t already tried, ask ATF for more suggestions. They will keep coming up with people to try. Eventually, you will either get one to sign, or you will find yourself in a UNIQUE (in 75 years of this law) position of having legal standing to challenge the ATF’s CLEO requirement (which is not actually based in law, BTW).

    4. “But I don’t know what I’m talking about, when I say your local sheriff has to finger print you, run a back ground check, and that the Feds will run your finger prints again once you turn in all your forms, pictures, and money. That is, if your sheriff will approve you having an NFA item to begin with”

      They ain’t saying that isn’t paper work to fill out, they are saying that all that stuff basically amounts to a background check, and that they are checking to make sure you aren’t a felon or crazy.

      Plus, where do you live that you have to ask the sheriff’s permission to buy a gun? Do yourself a favor and move somewhere with liberal (that’s lower case liberal) gun laws. Here in Utah, you pay for the fun stuff, send some paper work and $200 to the gov, then when they reply you go pick up your gun.

      Quit trying to change the rules of the argument so that you win.

      And Don’t lecture Larry about gun laws. He’s an accountant and owned a machine-gun store for a few years.

      1. I may be ignorant about law enforcement signing off on a machine gun purchase, but when I bought my shotgun a few weeks ago, there was no sheriff present.

  134. Emile, give up. It’s obvious you’re a douche and we’re laughing at you. The people you’re arguing with write professional articles, go on TV, do reviews, provide feedback to manufacturers, build weapons, use them professionally, sell them.

    Are you the kind of person who claims to be a “former Navy SEAL” too?

    On second thought, please keep posting. This is very entertaining.

    FYI, the Norinco is technically a Type 56, stamped or milled. The AK47 was milled. The AKM (modernized) was stamped. The generic term “AK47” suffices for everyday use.

    Incidentally, if one has to have a nonexistent “Class 3 License” to even handle the glory that is an HundK, as you first claimed, then how did Hanz and Franz let you handle one, since you do not possess the license that does not exist? You’re contradicting yourself all over the place here.

    1. Much entertaining thread indeed. But, Michael, just want to make a quick note since we’re somewhat anal about names here. Originally pre-AKM gun was not officially called AK-47. It was called AK ( folding stock model was called AKS). And first production batches of AK and AKS were not milled but stamped from 1.5mm and later from 1.7mm sheets. A bit later receiver became milled and then, of course, stamped again (AKM).

      1. Fine:) Let me clarify. My main point was that Russian assault rifle widely known in the West as AK-47 (:P) first was produced with the stamped, not machined, receiver.

        Simply put there is such an animal as a stamped AK-47.

  135. Emile,
    Please cite for me your source regarding “Class 3 Licenses” and/or the ATF denying an NFA purchase where otherwise legal because of a sheriff’s opinion. Seriously, I have extensively researched this material previously, but as an attorney I would be remiss in not keeping up to date with such sweeping changes to what I thought was the current law.

  136. Counselor,

    It’s obvious he thinks being a Class 3 Special Occupational Taxpayer is a ‘license”, rather than an additional endorsement to an FFL (which ARE licenses, but are rated in “Types” not “Classes”).

    Not knowing anything but what a quick glance at the Bardwell pages between Halo game sessions could tell him, he doesn’t realize that, in the law, terminology matters.

    If he restricted himself to casual speech, I wouldn’t be pedantic — but he started trying to speak some garbled babbling parrot of Higher Legalese, I feel it’s appropriate to hammer him on it.

    I am awaiting his citation of an actual case where an NFA registration was denied SOLELY based on a sheriff’s opinion or refusal to sign the CLEO certification.

    Because it would be the biggest change in the NFA since the 1986 Machinegun Freeze.

  137. Mr. Emile –

    Since you are apparently an expert, can you help me with a quesion that has been nagging at me ever since I heard about it:

    Do I duct tape one or two trauma plates to my briefcase to shield me from the sniper with the 338 Lapua Magnum as I make my way to my heavily armored golf cart?



    {{{{RIP Chuck}}}}

  138. Charlie,
    you should always wear two Level IV plates front AND back as well as two iiia soft armor vests, a iiia MICH helmet, groin protector, double side ESAPI plates, and a lexan face shield in case you need to protect yourself from multiple .338 AP strikes while guarding that mall. You might also consider replacing your golf cart with an MRAP or Bradley AFV.

  139. Thank you for the responses.

    As much as I would like to be able to get a Bradley or an LAV, I think the best we could do is a surplus M113 using DHS and stimulus money.

    The only trouble with an M113 is that our SW3s won’t fit in the weapons racks. Also I’m not sure we can pintle mount our HK21s.

    And technically it’s an outdoor mulitple retail business establishment zone and not a mall, but we have the same issues.

    Thanks again,


    {{{{{{RIP Chuck}}}}}}

  140. Chuck,

    Don’t forget to vary your loads in the mounted smoke grenade launcher with a mix of M90 smoke and XL96E1 riot control rounds.

    That way, when you are mobbed by a horde of soccermoms trying to get Christmas’s hottest toy and faced with long range fire from a sniper equipped with advancd IR sights, you’ll be able to withdraw the affected track while his wingman bounds to a better attack position.

  141. We definitely need to mix the loads for the Christmas rush. There’s nothing, and I mean nothing as frightening as a deranged mob and Color Me Elmo.

    I’d rather face a whole legion of zombies. Ugh.

    I wonder if DHS will supply some “brown note” sonic weapons this year?

    BTW – I’m not Chuck. Larry rather flippantly reported his passing which I’m slightly perturbed about. Great guy – lots of money and cool toys. I guess he moved to Atlanta and fell in with a REALLY rough crowd….

    Strykers would rock. I wonder if I can pre-order from Special Weapons?

      1. No biggie about the name.

        That’s not the worst of it actually.

        When I’m not serving humanity at the mall, I work on the 14th floor of an office building in Dallas.

        We used to share floor space with a company named Hanson.

        Thank God I’m not an accountant…..

        Which brings me to another nagging question, Larry, how did a 500 year old Central American native learn Norse mythology? You couldn’t have referenced 12/21/2012 instead?


  142. Well, the BMW 3 series is one of the most desirable, “chicks did it” cars around. It has less interior space than a Honda Civic, costs nearly three times as much, has less features, is in the shop twice the amount of time as the Honda….but it sells great.
    Brand equity is a fascinating thing. And you’re right, the fact that HK restricts civilian sales makes their FAs even more desirable! Forbidden fruit…
    I have three HKs…and it’s not about practicality. It’s about desire.

    1. Evan,

      I’m all in about the “But I WANT it!!!” factor. There’s a reason I like the TT-33, even though objectively, the only favorable comparison you can make about it compared to “modern” service type pistols is it has better terminal performance than the FN FiveSeven. {grin}

  143. This review is dead on, HK’s are highly over-rated guns that have abominable triggers, piss poor ergonomics and an outrageously high price tag. They are no more reliable, accurate or durable than many other guns and their undeserved reputation as superweapons is due to their fanboy following, most of whom have never shot the guns which they fawn over. The FN-FAL will indeed thoroughly spank the pants off of the G3 just as a Glock 17 or Sig 226 will put a HK pistol to shame.

  144. this is still going 2+ years later ? dayum!
    anyway, my p2k 40 lem is still going strong …
    no malfunctions or breakages in over 2 years …
    bought a p2ksk40 to go with it …
    snark all you want , but they do work and work well…R

  145. I have shot the MP5, G3, USP, Socom, P7, and the VP70Z. Can’t say I was impressed enough with any of them to justify paying the price for one.

    Before anyone jumps on me, I own a pristine P7M8 and I love the way the gun handles and feels but it’s not ever going to be my carry gun. I only carry Glock because it hasn’t failed me yet in the last 15 years that I have relied on one.

    As for long guns, I’ll take a decent M4 platform anyday for the price. The MP5 is a great gun, easy shooting and quick handling but I’ll take the punch of the .223 over the 9mm which I can get from my pistol. The only thing cool about the MP5 is that chicks dig it and HK might just like me because I won’t suck if I can get one to carry on duty.

    Okay, gotta run, Hans is looking for me. He always kicks me where it hurts and then sneers at me because I suck.

  146. Fuck my USP. Stupid giant damned engine block slide. Went to a buddy’s farm, plinked at some cans. Had a hell of a lot better luck with his Glock than I did with my boat anchor that also fires bullets. Never again with the damn nazi decended sons of whores get any more money from me.

    In consolation, the pistol was used when I got it, so I’m pretty sure they didn’t get any money from me, anyway. If anyone has a time machine, please go back to mid-August, 2008 and steer me too something that doesn’t have an insane suck-to-price ratio (It was the first pistol I bought.). Or just let me borrow the time machine. I’ll bring you back a pet velociraptor.

    H&K, may the Devil feast on your souls.

    I think I want a 1911.

  147. You guys are funny. “Fanboys” and people who are afraid that they cant buy guns as Civilians complaining about marketing of HK? Guys, what you do think whos doing the “marketing” for america? Not german people do that! That is the american HK who have to do such kind of bullshit and anyway, there is no need to discuss why you should need a full automatic HK416, or is there? Do you think we in germany can buy guns as civilians? No! Not a fucking stupid little pistol and that is how it should be in a civilized country!
    Just in such “third world” countries like America you can still do so! A lot parts of the USA are as worse as the Iraq or Afghanistan. Just think about it and its a shame that people like you talk about guns like we do about cars! Fucking shame on you!

    1. “No! Not a fucking stupid little pistol and that is how it should be in a civilized country!”


      Yeah the germans are so civilized…

      You guys hold the highest number of registered domains for scat websites.

  148. Blubby,
    We have a Constitution in America that states we have a right to own guns. No other Constitution allows for that. We do not want our government to get to big even thought Obama is doing all he can to do that.

    Not allowing guns to be bought by civilians does not reduce the use of guns in America. The guns used by the bad guys are bought illegally and then the good guys can not defend themselves. Not allowing guns to be owned by civilians only increases crimes. Look at Chicago, Detroit etc. How about Switzerland where everyone owns a gun, how high is crime there?

  149. You guys say all the same, you must be some gunloving rednecks. Well, have fun killing yourself as long as you keep staying where you are! In fact you people kill more inocents then criminals with your laws which really allow everyone to have a gun. You cannot compare your “redneck”-“gunlover”-“child” laws with them of Switzerland you idiot. I cant stand your bullshit talking really. Just kill your wife “accedently” or some guys who just have a TV remote control in the hands and you think “it could have been a weapon”…. blah blah, you guys suck. Your freedom policity to kill other people is insane!

    1. Actually, Blubbertroll, I hate beer, don’t hunt and am pursuing a Masters in History. And oh, by the way, I use words with a syllable-count most would sprain their brains trying to pronounce let alone comprehend. “Redneck?” I think not…

      And, by the way, Besserwisser, I’m STILL waiting for your answer to the issue with my friend and her psycho ex. We don’t have “freedom” to kill, we have “justifiable” or “excusable homicide” under certain very specific, limited conditions, such as when the deceased was trying to kill us, or when some fool runs out onto the highway in front of you and there’s no way you can stop in time.

      You know what’s REALLY insane? The entire notion that honest, decent people should be placed at the “tender mercies” of people who have NO MERCY WHATSOEVER.

      How ’bout next round we just leave y’all to the tender mercies of the Soviets, hmmm? Oh, wait, you guys are already cozying up to ol’ “Mr. KGB” anyway… so maybe he’ll let you off easy. Or maybe he still harbors, like most Russians, a grudge for the whole “breaching Molotov-Ribbentrop” thing… Feel lucky?

    2. Will the last real German to leave Def Vaterland please hand the keys to the nearest Turk?

      Das ist alles…….

  150. So, Blubber, in your “civilized” country full of Nazis, communists, Greens, Hamas supporters, etc, you think we’re uncivilized?

    Guess what? We don’t give a @#$ what you think in the Third World. You have the economy of one of our average sized states, men in leather straps, and HundK.

    And regardless of what you think of it, guns ARE legal here, HundK is in the business of selling guns, and does a piss-poor job of it in the biggest market there is. If it’s such a moral point for them, perhaps they shouldn’t be in the arms business at all. Maybe ladies’ lingerie is more their speed.

    Now, I’m going to have a dinner with bread, meat, cheese and beer, and none of it is that German crap. I’m going with French, Italian, Swiss and Belgian.

  151. Oh, and Blubber, if guns kill people, I have 237 that are defective.

    btw, last I checked, our death rate is lower than yours, our GDP higher, and freedom is never “insane,” except to Communist and Nazi wannabes. Which are you?

  152. Blubby, I am too lazy to come up with a tactful way to express this, so I will simply say it – you are not too terribly bright, are you?

    1. Statistics do not back up your “kill more innocents than criminals” claim. Assuming you know what statistics are.

    2. We do not have a “freedom policity (sic – and what is a “policity”, anywise)” to kill other people.

    3. The term is not “redneck” – it is “Appalachian American”… at least from my stretch of the woods.

    4. Go see what our gracious host has done to your previous comment. I would just love to see your take on that.

  153. Blubby is a result of the liberal left socialist teaching since the 70’s throughout Europe. Maybe he was never taught the true history of Reagan’s roll in knocking down the wall to allow both East and West Germany to join as one once again. He like most Europeans worship at the alter that enslaves people, the socialist, communist alter

  154. Blubby,

    1. “Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not.”~Thomas Jefferson

    2. “Those who trade liberty for security have neither.” ~ John Adams

    3. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

    4. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

    5. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.

    6. Gun control is not about guns; it’s about control.

    7. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

    8. Know guns, know peace, know safety.

    No guns, no peace, no safety.

    9. You don’t shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

    10. Assault is a behavior, not a device.

    11. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

    12. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    13. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

    14. What part of ‘shall not be infringed’ do you NOT understand?

    15. Guns have only two enemies; rust and politicians.

    16. When you remove the people’s right to bear arms, you create slaves.

    17. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.


    1. Posting fail… I just checked your webstore and got the answer to one of my questions (about the patch and book).

      Still curious about the other ones, though. Thanks!

  155. finally someone else gets the hk snob expierence
    I thought it was my aftershave.. I like the G3 it fits me for my size but I preffer the M14. the G3 is fun to shoot but its far from perfect. great post Tim

  156. I love your site, its hillarious. I work at a gunshop (have worked at 4 of them). We all joke about how horrific HK service is. Ordering guns from them is even a joke, they CONSTANTLY forget to ship crap you order from them.

    We call them back “hey, wheres our damn order”? They reply “yeah, we forgot bout that”, or theyve said “we never got a order from you”.

    the BEST reply is when they say “yeah, well ship that when we get to it…”……….”why? dont you have it in stock????”…….HK replies “yeah, we got em’, but well ship it when we get to it”. HA!!!

    Our gunshop owner been selling/ordering guns for 40 years, he says hes never seen more crappy service from a gun company in his life, never ever.

    HK reminds me a lot of the now defuct joke company “special weapons”, who outright said (yes, they said this) “we hate the public, were gonna sell (out overpriced junk) to speshul-forcez”

    You have to ‘love’ a company whose head is so far up its ass that its a joke you dont know to get mad about or laugh your ass off about.

  157. I forgot to add. Ahem….

    Yes, I own several HK handguns, and like them, including many many many Glocks and others,

    AND, Yes, I despise HK for their overpriced snobbery, dogshit customer non-existent service, overpriced parts, and their fascist “up yours, we hate civilians” eurotrash attitude.

    Glock recoil assembly replacement cost???? $18

    HK recoil assembly replacement cost??? $95

    (whatthefuck,… thats insane)

  158. 3 years and still going strong!

    I remember being completely hyped to try out a USP and afterwards thinking, “Huh? That was ok, I guess.”

    Really the only HK I’d want, even if I had unlimited funds would be the SL6 or SL7 (mit zwei round burst!), which of course they won’t sell me.

  159. Funny stuff, I just killed an hour reading all of this. I always wondered where the famous “because you suck and we hate you” quote came from, and in all my years on gunboards and deeply into the hobby…I’m ashamed to say I never knew until now.

    Anyway, I’ve got to say I do disagree on some points. I’m not a fanboy of anything, I have alot of firearms by alot of makers and what I likes I likes…and I do like the G3 and the USP (.40). I actually think the g3 has less recoil than my FAL or m14s (polytech m1a) and while the ergos take some getting used to and cleaning is a real pain, i’ve grown to be quite fond of her. The USPs I could also praise. Personally, I find they may be my favorite full sized handgun. They just feel natural to me. However, when people ask me for a gun rec. they are rarely the answer. Sigs, M&Ps, XDs, CZs…all do about the same thing just as well (I just can’t rec. glocks…i tried to like them…didn’t work out) So anyway…does H&K make a good gun? Yes. Do they make the only gun that won’t get you killed when the assasins target a mall near you? No.

  160. Best gun ever made, downright AK47
    don’t badmouth it, its true,
    everyone uses it.

    Go ahead, go to Africa and buy an AK47 for a chicken with mix-matched AK parts and see if it still doesn’t fire the way its supposed to. Single greatest gun ever created. Does what a gun should do, kill everything and not stop no matter what the situation. That’s all I got to say.

    1. Obviously, you’ve never actually seen a Third World Kalashnikov that’s been “maintained” by a cave man for 20-30 years.

      When the US decided to rebuild the Iraqi army, they had to pretty much re-equip them with small arms (strating off with AK purchased from European armories, as the former Warsaw Pact nations fell over themselves trying to requip to NATO standards), becuase the current inventory of AKMs was effectively useless from neglect and abuse.

      Kalashnikovs are really good rifles, but they aren’t magical, either.

  161. I own 4 AKMs, the Hungarian one being my favorite of the bunch. And I don’t suck cause Mikhail Kalashnikov Loves

  162. Thank you for the article, I nearly died laughing! (Effective ammo, these blogs, ain’t they? – And cheap too!)

    I don’t have any experience with HK products, but exactly as you say the “fan boys” parise them to high heavens while real-world people have a ‘slightly’ more sobering approach.

    Keap it up!

  163. The little town of Oberndorf on the Neckar has been making the finest firearms in the world for over 150 years – call it Mauser Werkes or Heckler Koch or what have you…these people know metallurgy – using alloys and temperature variance to create precision on a quantum level – though, like the japanese sword-smiths, they weren’t initially sure why the greatness occurred – these days…they know.

    The HK marketing department isn’t that big. It does not have to be. They simply organize testing of their products which sell themselves. A separate firm creates the licensed logo “shwag” that moves so promptly on ebay – SOP for any company with govt contracts anywhere in the world

    The German mastery of creating metal characteristics is also reflected in the car industry, where they have consistently churned out stiffer chassis’ than any other country by more than ten years of product – tight handling and safe + forgiving. Just like their guns – they easily make average shooters/drivers into comparatively better than than the competition, right out of the box/off the lot – it’s what their massive engineering R&D is dedicated to.

    Mercedes just crash tested their 60,000th car – for what they cost and how their built it seems a shame. But it is the safest car in the world.

    I agree…what’s your family’s life worth? Hehhehh

    1. Ah, a perfect little drone. I see the marketing worked on you.

      Ask anyone with experience and they’ll take a PPSh or Sterling over an MP5. Since you’re so knowledgeable, tell us what differences you experienced between the three, and why you chose the MP5. You DO have actual trigger time on an MP5, yes? You’re not just citing an opinion based on marketing, are you?

      Nothing wrong with Mausers, but Mosin Nagants work just as well, cheaper. Of course, neither is in military production anymore.

      The FAL, the AR series and the AK series have sold millions more units to dozens more countries than H&K. In fact, Germany’s new G36 is based on the AR18. It seems they preferred that to the HundK offering. Oops.

      1. Muahhaahhahhaaaaaa – now I know you are kidding around with this whole thing – PPsH tipped it off…unless you are a poor Albanian terrorist “operator” then your modern choice of arms definitely drops the dime on this sham flamer blog. Funny though, especially when you whine about stamped steel in HK’s lineup but prefer the war rationeering, punched out of tin plates, could-make-one-yourself-in-ten-days-with-anvil-and-barstock…sten and ppsh. Which are reliable bullet hoses spraying all around your target area, then sometimes cooking off the last 20 rounds of a drum as it jumps skyward. And the soviets did beat the germans with em in ww2, not the mosin-nagants which were outshot by the mausers, but….hehhhehhh pretty funny guy…like there would be 25 companies here and around making tons of cash selling licensed copies of either of your choices. Or an airsoft empire built mostly from clones of your guns. It would be impressive if a small private ad campaign to LE and Mil only, from a company that doesn’t actually net enough cash to be bribing anybody, could somehow cause the entire world to respect, fear, and worship the polygonal end of it’s muzzle. But that’s what makes it funny, right? Like saying Tom Clancy’s and idiot who knows nothing? Though he has been writing some self-promoting moralizing movie script books these past ten years, even Red Storm Rising had MP5s taking down Soviets back in what, the early 1980s.

        Of course as far as the AR – I love my RRA but its for the fam, the HK91 is what Ive been shooting for 18 years and after 25k or so rounds… of far reaching, tight shooting, one shot dropping ab22 euro milsurp.. the only jam was in the first clip out of the brand new box. Sure, easy when you just have to sit on the porch, too lazy to ever clean the gun. But let’s fast forward to those that are fighting for us today and who can’t clean their guns because they are being shot at…

        Which reminds me of the recent DOD test that the SCAR won, followed by the HK416 and XM8, in which they all had a few jams, but the current M4 had 100’s of fail-to-fire’s. Marketing? Their mascot is Delta Force? When the Colt barrel melts in the youtube video, could that be in ze evil germans new york advertising office? Hehhehh – but you are not as funny on these other blog topics.

      2. Furies,

        You might want to go check out the follow-up post to this one.

        I hammer out the tactical differences between the PPSh41 and the HK MP5 over there.

        Hate to tell you, but PPSh41’s have a better track record for durability than MP5s. So do Sterlings and Uzis. Ask people who RUN submachinegun training courses and SMG competitions. MP5s frequently break during classes, while Uzis and Sterlings rarely do. Meanwhile, 60 year old wartime production (in other words, made with all the love and attention of an aluminum beer can) PPSh41’s still shine in competition, even with high-volume shooters.

        I’ll admit, for SOME roles (the ONLY Real World tactical roles for which a SMG is remotely still appropriate), I’d take an MP5 over a PPSh41. If I need a smaller,lighter, gun — well then, an MP5 is smaller and lighter than a PPSh41. But I’d take an Uzi or a Sterling over an MP5 in a heartbeat — and an M4 over any 9mm SMG (unless I needed a SMG that fits in a HOLSTER — another role the MP5K variants shine at).

        On the other hand, if the mission WASN’T length or weight sensitive, and I HAD to have a SMG rather than a rifle, I’d take a PPSh41, Uzi, or Sterling over any HK SMG or PDW (to include those POS UMP an MP7). Of the three SMGs I would take, I honestly prefer the Sterling — but the PPSh41 has it’s REALLY good points too — it’s rock steady controllable, the round stands a pretty good chance punching through light body armor or loaded rucksacks (much better than 9x19mm), and the ROF and magazine capacity mean the slightly lower terminal effects on meat can be offset.

        You think the fact that HK has managed to convice MOVIE and VIDEO GAME producers that it is an uber-cool piece of hardware is evidence of it’s awesomeness?

        I guess you think that SOCOM and every other high speed military command in the world will be switching to Desert Eagles in .50AE any day now. . .

        If you were older than (let me guess. . . ) 20 years old, you would have been shocked when they didn’t replace every 5.56mm NATO rifle on the planet with the Steyr AUG, and even farther back that they didn’t replace every handgun on the planet with the MAC10, and every SMG with teh S&W M76 (Both the MAC and teh AUG were good guns, for what they do, when properly employed. The friggin’ M76 was a total fail. . . )

        Yup, an M4 carbine barrel failed after 540 rounds in under three minutes. Another failed after just shy of 600 rounds in under four minutes.

        Of course, you can destroy an HK, FAL, AK (Hell, you can get an AK to burst into FLAMES that way), or even a GPMG barrel the same way, but it’s all the fault of the AR15/M16 gas system right? (Please explain, to this old infantry NCO and current military systems engineer how that works, exactly.)

        Go figure — blow more than two basic loads through the gun in automatic bursts as fast as you can feed it, and it gets hot.


        The battle of Wanat? Better read the full report again, Bucky. Not as cut and dried as fanbois like yourself would like it to seem. (Just like that Ranger Captain a few years back that every one was holding as evidence that the M4 gas system sucks — the one whose M4 jammed before he got a round OFF, when he had just stepped off the Chinook? That indicates the problem was OPERATOR ERROR, that he stepped ON the bird with a bad gun. . . meaning he either didn’t maintain it, or he never function tested it.)

        Yup, the M4 came in dead last in a reliability test — a test in which there are SERIOUS questions about the motives behind the testers. Yeah, I know how to induce faults in a weapon, if I want to make a case for replacing it, too — I’ve done it a time or two. Of course, the failure rates they reported for the M4 are on the HIGH end of what we managed to do when we wanted (and always succeeded) to DX an M16 that we wanted to replace with a newer one. “Run it wet” is good advice, for certain values of “wet”. . . keep pumping lubricant in (as te testers ADMITTED doing) while doing a high volume test, especially in grit conditions, and you end up with gooey paste full of sand — which would jam an AK. The only candidate in the test that had ANYTHING done to it outside the manual was the only one that had significant problems. Huh. You mean experienced soldiers not only know HOW to make specific kit look bad but might be willing to do so
        in order to get something they think might be better?


        If you think your HK Wundergewehr doesn’t need to be cleaned, you’ve never check headspace on a roller locked gun and had to replace the rollers, have you?

        If you think REAL soldiers routinely have to fire 600 rifle rounds between cleanings, your military service obviously consists of playing a lot of Rainbow Six. ARs have proven, time and time again, that they can got tens of thousands of rounds between cleaning — in several cases, significantly more than (like, two to three times) the service life of the componants. Even with teh cheapest, shittiest, dirtiest ammo out on the market (like an exclusive diet of Wolf steel case) I don’t recommend it, but I’m glad other people have gone ahead and done the work.

        Meanwhile, REAL armies have found that delayed blowback guns like the HK family are DAMNED sensitive to ammo variation (especially — almost exclusively – case wall design) compared to actual locked breech designs alike the FAL, AK, and yes, the AR.

        The HK416? I seem to recall the Norweigans found out it was a POS once they actually started issuing production line guns. (Note — NONE of these problems surfaced while testing the cherry-picked guns HK provided for evaluation, only one the production contract was signed and the guns were right off teh production line did they show up.) Kept jamming, especially in the cold. Not only does it readily freeze when moved from cold to warm to cold (as soldiers in arctic conditions frequently have to do), but the gas regulator keeps changing it’s position (regardless of temperature). . . when your gas regulator sets ITSELF on the “supressor” setting, but you don’t have a can mounted, “Sarge, da gun don’t work!” Admittedly, the M16 direct gas impingement rifle they use (Canadian production C8 — it’s an M4 made in Canada under license) also freezes sometimes (as do ALL guns moved in and out of warm shelters), but it happens MUCH less frequently than with the HK416, and clearing the problem on teh C8 is much faster and easier. Ooops.

        The Marine Corps paths forward seem to make a lot of sense — they are considering a free float tube on the M16A4, MAYBE going to a collapseable stock. If they do both of those (and do it with a reasonably lightweight FF tube), they will have one of the finest current assault rifles available.

        Now if they would just get rid of the BURST, and accept that you either train you guys to use fire discipline and when and HOW to use automatic fire, or you issue them semiautomatic only rifles, they would be right at the limits of curently fielded infantry rifle calibers. (Or, you could just buy Canadian C7A2 rifles, and swap the handguards for a free float tube. . . 20″ barrel, flat top receiver, M4 style stock, Safe/Semi/Auto trigger pack — it’s already IN the C7A2.)

        (NO ONE is going to be changing the standard NATO rifle round for ANOTHER 1880’s technology brass cased round any time soon — so everyone can piut down the opium hookahs and stopping chanting the 7.62mm NATO, 6.8mm SPC, and 6.5mm Grendel mantras. Go caseless, and you’ll see a 6-7mm bullet, since you’ll be forced to change your rifles and LMGs as a set anyway.)

    2. Mercedes is the “Safest Car in the world?”

      Nah… that would be the wife’s Volvo XC60. Her old ML 320 was only safe because it spent more time parked in the service bay than on the road.

  164. I can’t speak much about the long guns from HK, since I don’t have much experience with them specifically, but I agree that they’re being ridiculous by making them scarce among civilians.
    As far as their pistols go, I’ve shot quite a few, from the P30, P2000, and the USP’s and I’ve had the opportunity to fire both the 1911 MEUSOC and the POS Berretta M9 while I was in the corps. I have a USPc in .40 and it’s my daily carry weapon. I haven’t had any problems with it for the two years I’ve had had it; and no malfunctions from any of the 4000+ rounds that have been put through it. Have to say that it has been my favorite pistol, even with the exorbitant price tag that was stuck on it. Don’t think I’ll spend that much on something completely stock again anytime soon, but IMO it was worth it this time.

  165. Hilarious write up, you’ve definitely got a future in it if the firearms, operator or whatever the hell business you do now.

    Heckler and Kock rifles are definitely some overprice, less than average performers.

    As far as handguns are concerned:
    45ACP feels shitty in all of their offerings. If a sidearms feels shitty, then it will likely shoot shitty for that individual. I’ll stick with 1911’s in that caliber.

    In .40, which has been my most commonly shot and carried caliber, I do love a full sized USP (none of that fancy special ops pararescue seal ranger delta uber leet shit). A plain jane .40 USP is arguably my most reliable and proficient sidearm, with only an old-ass, first generation sig p226 in the same flavor. I would sooner fuck a pencil sharpener before paying retail H&K prices though. Same goes with Sig. I generally wait for a good-looking used pistola to pop up and snag them for under 600, which is still a pretty penny.

    9mm is non-existent for me, so I can’t speak on preference here. Honestly, I remember liking the government issue Beretta 92 as a “plinker.”

    HK and Sig have been very reliable sidearms for me. I’ve shot a dickload of rounds without a single failure. I HAVE had failures on both though, more on the Sig if I had to guess. Some were with expensive ass, reliable ammo. I would say with confidence that I’ve generally had far less jams or failure to fires with both of those sidearms than with some of the cheaper brands you listed (S&W, etc). I don’t shoot glocks, so I don’t know dick about their reliability, other than what the internets tells me.

    As far as rifles, your average AR owning American has never and never will fire a shot in anger. .223 is great for dicking around, but what these doomsaying fucktards fail to realize is that as far as shit hits the fan weapons, its a dumb choice.

    I’ll stick with 7mm bolt and 30-06 semi for long range.
    .22lr bolt handed down from my grandad, and probably his dad for small critters, or fast food when you’re in the sticks.

    By the way, in-line with your post about reasonable and sensible gun pricing and quality. I just checked out a fucking awesome bolt-action for anyone looking for quality build at a cheap price.

    Tikka, 7mm was the flavor of my testing, but I believe it comes in a variety of calibers (I know .223/5.56 nato for a fact). Hammer forged, free floating barrel. The bolt action is as smooth as any I’ve ever felt. Solid parts, reliable performance as reported by some truly dedicated and deer slaying hunters. I was grouping 2″ or less at 300 yds with 7mm. The rifle just has a good feel to it. I believe the retail is somewhere around the $500 range. I’m not a paid sponsor or employee of this company, but this rifle is a shit kicking tack driver. Look it up, thinking about snagging one this week.

  166. you comment-deleting terd burglar. The author deletes comments on this post at his discretion, because you suck, and he hates you.

    Seriously, grow a pair and let the 1st amendment ring, you fucking pansy.

    1. First off, the only comments I ever delete are the spambots and the idiots that can’t string together a coherent sentence. Luckily, you make the cut. (barely)

      Secondly, comments from new posters don’t appear until I post them. I’m sorry I didn’t approve your brain-damaged comment on a three-year-old blog post sooner, but I was on a leg of a my national book tour for my New York Times bestselling novel. This may shock you, but some of us have a life outside of working the night shift at Arbys.

      Third, you have no 1st Amendment right to post on somebody else’s blog, you ignorant slut. I’d take the time to explain how the Constitution and Bill of Rights are about the limitations on governmental authority, but you’d just go back to huffing paint and forget anyway.

      1. Right on Larry! I am glad i checked this three year old blog! Where do all the oozlings come from that make stupid comments? Semper Gumby~

      2. Maybe this whole thing is a practice session for character development in a book. Start with an absurd assertion likely to be emotional for some folks (former hostages), then respond with various ‘personalities’ like that of “cranky old vietnam vet”, and “mid 30s jaded spfc’s mustached defense expert fantasy you”, etc. If on the other hand it’s supposed to be a logical weapons perspective it fails.

        Ignoring 95% of the response, seizing on debatable semantics here or there, and then without basis assume the responders positions on other guns or general background, or maybe jump between decades and applications to confuse the central issue. No matter how long winded or informative on other topics, your replies are never to the original point. HK, the legacy of Mauser, has more respect from the world’s elite operating community (yes, you are frustrated at not being a part of it, we get that), than any other firearms manufacturer. Maybe not you, or your friend jimmy-Bob, but on average, they will improve an army (only goal) as a system and as individual weapons. This is by application and decade – comparing today’s Daniel Defense carbine to a 1950s HK .223 prototype will only leave you slightly impressed by the HK. Instead let’s put a 416C next to any choice you have of DI in the same dimensions and who wins? You don’t, since you aren’t able to get a 416C, but the best troops in the world are fielding it as you read this.

        My reply was subgun vs subgun, not subgun vs carbine (typical of your response style). Again, you are at the family reuinion, a jerwad ex rolls in with a 12 gauge shouting, surrounded by nieces and nephews (since you aren’t obviously a family man), and you can reach for one weapon off the rack – the MP5 is still the best choice unless you hate this family or planned this as a sniper event.

        Special ammo like cor-bon in .223 may not be handy (to cut short 5 paragraphs of your reply from describing ammo variables or something).

        I won’t continue since arguing with the slow kid is proof that I’m a little slow. But since you are a machine gun renter, and the best tool for that is an Uzi or a PPsh, I will agree that for your application, your tools are perfect for the job. The dead giveaway that I have no trigger time is also laughable, since you likely handed me one to dump rounds through. If not at a school, then likely in KY, where we’ve been going with my uncle (who owns a couple Stens) to Knob Creek Machine Gun festival for 15 years, twice a year, spending three days each time on the triggers of everything, EVERYTHING, including 40,000 plus rounds on the GE minigun – and, the guys that own these guns and the former para’s that help them, say the same thing.

        In order to say these are inferior weapons systems, or that HK policy is to punish the private citizen, ignores 95 % of truth, again. You can live on in a land of 5% reality, where you wear a patch and throw grenades at problems, where the “sheeple” sleep and mall ninjas pester your greatness, but 100% of the truth is….the fantasy world of an author on his blog, whose points are supported only by imaginary friends, will seldom have much to do with actual facts or reality. And as the blood pressure rises and you flail about responses, i’m off to the real world, never to return. So keep it brief.

      1. You know, for someone who is “off to the real world, never to return”, you sure are busy throwing personal insults at people’s family.

        You still haven’t documented your (typical fanboi) assertions about HK’s unqualified superiority to the “world’s elite operating community” in the face of the domentable fact that they have, by and large, been moving AWAY from HK weapons over the last decade or so. . .

        I’ll answer YOUR question directly. At the family reunion, when someone shows up with a shotgun and starts shooting, the best weapon I could reach for would be something along the lines of an AR15 carbine (or anything similar in size, power, and accuracy — regardless of make or model). Even if the carbine is a non-NFA semiauto loaded with M193 or M855 ball ammo, it’s still a better choice than an MP5 of ANY caliber, model, or flavor — not even if the MP5 is loaded with super-dooper unobtanium specialty rounds only available to SEAL Teams and Delta.

        But that’s OK — you head right on back to that “real world”, where your experience apparantly comes from visiting Knob Creek. . .

    1. Heheh. Overpenetration. That is the answer we were looking for. If you are launching .223 of any type at your family than we are right to question your loyalty to them (not an insult…observation).

      Another answer you are getting wrong is the trend in purchasing by top level operators, since they are definitely buying more HK products then ever before. Grenade launcher sales alone would discredit your claim (or even just the HK GMG), but several strangely public purchase decisions have also proved that the 416 is storming.

      And for those reading this before buying, keep in mind resale value and reputation. Innovation like the dual-recoil spring from the 1993 USP, just showed up in the newest Glock. Like dual-optics, tactical slings, QD scopes (that hold zero), and hundreds of other things this company introduced in it’s history (and folks like you initially made fun of), there are few as influential – That’s the results of a 150 year old R&D and metallurgical tradition, and of not supporting the lawyers of the world (why we suck).

      As far as Knob Creek, it’s not the limit of my “operational experience”, but a good place to shoot every machine gun made, multiple times with variable ammo and barrel lengths etc. Also for weekend warriors to come watch it happen. Since everything you write proves you are such a warrior, figured we saw you there, hoping to mow down all the targets on the lower range with one spray of your PPsh (but remember those misses in real life mean you are dead). That’s all. Work’s over, going home now, but later I guess I will check in to see how you huff and puff. In that way you are an entertaining writer.

      1. Furrys, are you talking to me (the original author) still? Because this blog post is over 3 years old… Most of us have moved on with our lives, so I’m a little confused if you’re talking to me or not. (though I did have to comment last week for an idiot to explain the concept of what the 1st Amendment actually says) If you are talking to me about being an entertaining writer, why yes, my last novel just made the New York Times bestseller list, so apparently quite a few people seem to think so.

        And overpenetration? Really? Uhm… you may want to go see what your local SWAT team is using. (Hint, really good odds it is some sort of 5.56 shooting something like Hornady TAP, specifically because of overpenetration issues)

      2. Anyone mentioning “overpenetration” is admitting they know nothing about firearms whatsoever.

        Of course, we knew that.

        If you believe there’s a magic round that will shoot through bad guys but won’t shoot through walls, I have a bridge to sell you.

      3. Alright, ‘you two’ – for an “entertaining writer”, those were boring replies.

        Overpenetration is hitting the family behind the bad guy, wall or no wall. If you want to know what “acceptable losses” means, ask those same TAP using SWAT guys.

        As far as continuing a moronic blog column for three years, that’s your doing. I’m only here since it’s funny to see you dodging the bulk of of the facts and hiding it with insults these past couple months.

        It’s interesting to me how you don’t have to address the shortcomings of your arguments by spending your response time speculating on the stupidity of each poster that disagrees with your lame assertion.

        Thanks indeed for the laughs!

      4. Failure to address the myth of “overpenetration” fail.

        You’ve never heard, nor fired a shot in anger. So your fanboi opinion of HundK is irrelevant.

        It’s nice that you think you’re special, though.

      5. No. Misses in real life do not mean you are dead. It simply means you wasted ammo.

        Your opponent actually hitting you means you are a casualty, and may or may not be dead depending on how well he did or whether or not he had a lucky accident.

  167. “Overpenetration is hitting the family behind the bad guy, wall or no wall.”

    That you are apparently unaware of how ignorant it is to recite such an armchair trope is hysterical.

    Please, at least READ something by someone knowledgeable.

    1. Mp5s shine because, since the 70’s the pro’s load with BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) type rounds that are teflon coated yet commit 100% of energy to target. Which brings us back to a weapons SYSTEM optimized for the application. Is this the magic bullet you meant? For which application? Oh wait. Facts. Sorry to bring those up since they aren’t welcome.

      When my stepmom killed her abusive ex-husband one night in the late 1980s in albuquerque, she used a VP70Z loaded with BAT bullets. He beat his way through a patio window with a ballping hammer (reliable weapon you can appreciate) and hit her several times before she got the gun in her hand. Then all 18 shots rang out, cutting him mostly in half but without “overpenetrating”. That gun, with the first polymer frame in the business, was laughed at by many (likely you). But experience has taught me that you, like so so many before you (especially those working that case), will eventually realize you have been pissing in the wind all along.

      I buy American as a rule, and have boycotted China for 13 years, but if the alloy involved has lives depending on it, the Germans get my dime.

      Say what you will, but facts have momentum – your opinions won’t be slowing the big train down (three years of trying sure proves it).

      1. Wow. You really are ignorant. You should have quit while you were ahead before you went ahead and removed all doubt.

        No, seriously. You’ve taken it to a whole new level of BS. The more you talk, the more clues you drop to how little you actually know.

      2. Stepmom?

        So, you are saying that your DNA comes from a genius who managed to get himself torn in half with a hail of fire from a handgun because he was so awesome in his interpersonal skills and decision-making?

        This explains a lot.

  168. Hey its what I know but it ain’t BS – She got manslaughter 1 because the police considered it an “offensive weapon” system rather than a “defensive” one. Even the Albuquerque DA endorses HK as a quality sidearm. It was struck down because of, of course, the 2nd amendment makes no distinctions.

    But you should have at least said, “bet the first shot missed cause a that heavy trigger pull” (which is only the first round and in case you’ve been hit with a hammer, you don’t need to find the safety…just start squeezin), that would have meant you know something, or appreciate that as a machine pistol in its own holster/stock and that at 2300 rpm rof doesnt leave its target- 6 3 round bursts – only competitor was the MP5K which killed it. The briefcase for the MP5K? The squeeze cockers that are still the fastest cocking firing semi handguns ever made…Pulse Laser 100 on my MP5, with surefire upgraded 190 lumens led and a can is a nice night light even these days + children can use it…just rambling here still amazed that you could be anything but appreciative of the results, which help make Nato and the US the big dog – and you a sucker head

      1. Mike,

        Next time I have a beer with Farmer Frank, I’ll be sure to tell him that some kid on teh intarwebz loved his book so much that he memorized it.

        “GECO BAT (“Blitz Action Trauma””! Oh, man, I’m still LOL’ing. This is better than finding an old Mack Bolan book. 😀

      2. Hey! I LOVED Mack Bolan. . . in high school.

        I got bored about the time of the hit on Stony Man Farm.

        But I still would like a .44 AutoMag for S&G. {grin}

    1. “Pulse Laser 100 on my MP5, with surefire upgraded 190 lumens led and a can is a nice night light even these days + children can use it…”

      At least children can dream of it…

      But don’t they need a “Class III” ? *


      1. He could be the Mayor’s nephew, but Gecko45? Gecko is just 2 k00l 4 sk001.

        (I think I just threw up a little in my mounth when I typed that. {snicker})

  169. “I won’t continue since arguing with the slow kid is proof that I’m a little slow.” Furies, November 1st, 7:23 pm

    Since then, you’ve made 5 posts, 4 of which could be argued to be on topic, and 1 which was an insult of rather poor taste.

    On the other hand, I was disappointed that I’d already read the latest post, but this did provide some humor to my night.

  170. Hey I’m not the one bringing up sisters or whorehouses, but if little Timmy can’t take the heat from a trolling statement like he should keep it on subject.

    It’s what got me started on this blog…talking about the best soldiers we have as being , “stupid and ignorant”. That got me going – not the belittling of a gun company that truly doesn’t care what any of us think.

    And maybe I’m still waiting for…98% of my points to be addressed about the perceived triviality of HK’s contributions to firearm technology.

    BAT bullets were only imported briefly in the mid 80s, maybe not even legally, but if they found themselves in a fantasy survival epic of the era than that’s likely why. I still have the empty box if you want a pic (I could hold it while flipping you off for authenticity).

    Lastly, since you are sorta from SLC, likely met you at the Muay Thai Institute – we used to go for seminars twice a year that Craig Lamanna and Sem put together with guys like Bas Rutten – not sure they are still operating but you should get in on that if you haven’t.

    Or maybe met you hunting muley up behind Kamas – my cousin’s lived there for 20 years and we’ve had some big groups head out – These last 5or6 years we’ve also been launching spotter rounds at coyotes from a Barrett while mobiling the uintas – this year checking out new packs from eberlestock for snomobility near late Feb – we’ll be there if you want to come up and discuss any of the comments herein – We have raufoss rounds this year to check if coyotes are thick enough to detonate – likely not but it should be fun trying

    1. Funny thing. When those “best soldiers” came through my base, they had M4s and AKMs, with Berettae, GLOCKs and 1911s.

      I didn’t see any HundKs.

      It’s your story, though.

      I think most of your points were addressed–everything you attributed to HundK they stole from some other developer. You boast of how hard they are to get hold of. The price is indisputable. You boast of the crappy customer service. You affirm that this is because we suck, and they hate us, and we aren’t cool enough, and their business model is to not sell guns.

      What else needs addressed?

      Go back out to the woods with your uncle.;)

    2. Yay! Shooting 45lbs canines with APIT-HE! What fun for a budding sociopath!

      I’ll save you some time and money. The Norweigans already tested them — they’ll exit a human body (high center torso hit) before the fuse activates, and people are beefier than coyotes.

    3. “These last 5or6 years we’ve also been launching spotter rounds at coyotes from a Barrett …”

      So, you do take after the old sociopath.

      Sad that you’re also so retarded in your development that you sound like …

      … which is a shame, because no one will take you seriously. Which is dangerous. And the only why you actually might be a threat to the unwitting or unprepared.

  171. Sorry but that so-called satirical letter sounds more like cry-baby talk like bashing the guy driving the Ferrari for having the gall to flash his bling.

    Bashing H&K is one thing but bashing those of us who choose them over other brands and get a pride of ownership of them is nothing but sour grapes.

    If you don’t like them, don’t buy them but no need to advertise trash talk about them and implying those of us that have them should feel bad about them. I like H&K, I can afford it, so I buy it.

    The unfortunate thing about the internet is that it has created a nauseating stage for soap box evangelists who tell everyone that they should like/hate something as they do.

    BTW, people say that H&K’s are expensive? Um, compared to the many manufacturers of 1911’s out there charging upwards of $2000+ for a gun design that’s over 100 years old?

    1. You really ought to go back and try sme reading comprehension.

      First, read the original post from three years ago. The guy who wrote it was at that time, a machinegun dealer, and had more than one fully-automatic, transferrable, HK on hand, and he happily sold HKs (generally the semiautos I presume — not many people happen to have $17,500 for an MP5 sear gun or $20,000 for an MP5 with a “real” swing down grip, versus $7000 for an Uzi, $8,000 for a Mini-Uzi, Micro-Uzi, or Sterling) to any qualified buyer who wished to pay for them.

      Expensive? Um, yes. A $2,000 1911 is a tweaked gun. But the HKs aren’t “tweaked”. . .

      A surplus police trade-in HK P7 goes for about what a brand new Sig P229 sells for, and the HK is less reliable, requires more finicky maintenance, holds fewer rounds, is more subject to negligent discharge as a specific result of its HIGHLY flawed design, etc. A surplus police P7 sells for about $100 more than a new Beretta 92 or Glock 19, more like $150+ more than a new Springfield XD9, and about twice of what you can easily find a well maintained police surplus Glock or Beretta for. (And ANY of those three latter guns are better weapons — more reliable, frequently more accurate, accessories and consumables such as magazines don;t cost a kidney, etc.)

      (And you can beat those prices on new guns if you try. My wife bought a brand new XD9 for about half what an HK P30 sells for. I picked up four spare magazines for a little more than a SINGLE P7 magazine would cost. This wasn’t a carefully planned trip to take advantage of a momentary special lowball price — she bought the gun minutes after ever seeing one, at the regular price for the store. (We weren’t even planning on buying that day; I just talked her into going to see what felt good in her hands.)

      HK’s legendary quality in SMGs (and let’s discount the fact that there really aren’t any roles anymore where a pistol caliber SMG is a great choice for, other than “concealable full automatic” or “suppressed entry weapon firing subsonic loads”, both of which are HIGHLY limited roles, even compared to other “pure tactical” weapons) was chucked by the wayside. yes, the MP5’s quality was so important that HK tried to force everyone to switch over to a polymer gun that fires unlocked blowback. In other words, a gun with the same basic operating system as a pistol caliber AR selective fire carbine, crappier ergonomics and trigger than a pistol caliber AR selective fire carbine, less durable construction than a pistol caliber AR selective fire carbine, and WAY less useful a round than a simple M4 style selective fire carbine in 5.56mm (albeit, that’s a problem that hinders ALL pistol caliber SMGs from being really practical tactical choices these days).

      For semiauto rifles, HKs fall out in terms of “bang for your buck” as well. A “NIB” quality HK91 sells for about what you can get a REALLY nice tweaked M14 semiauto for. But the HK is, sadly, just a stock gun that doesn’t even win the quality contest compared to a NIB Springfield M1A or a “rack grade” M14 semiauto.

      HK HK91s are about equal to the FAL in accuracy and reliability (except, with the HK, your reliability hinges around the pressure and case metallurgy of the ammo you have with no way to adjust, whilst most FAL reliability problems hinge on the gas setting, which is field adjustable. . . ) But good FALs go for significantly less than equivalent HK91s. . . You can get a decent FAL for the price of a mediocre HK clone. (No, I wasn’t holding the clone reliability against real HKs. . . in fact, the clones HELP the HK not look so inferior, as the plethora of clones has driven the price of real HKs so they are only about twice as expensive as their quality and performance justify.)

      “Pride of ownership”? Buddy, if your pride requires you to pay twice as much (or more) for equal (or inferior, in most cases) performance, well, that sort of explains WHY fanbois get slapped around.

      Real pride of ownership is like my old ops sergeant, who was immensely proud of his “bargain basement” Chinese M14 clone. . . He stuck a USGI bolt, barrel, and trigger group in it, added National Match sights and flash suppressor, bedded it well with Acroglas, and the damned thing could shoot with ANY match M14 on the line. Of course, the driver had to do his part to make that happen. . . Walt was proud that he had a gun that he could use to hit tight groups at ANY range a threat could reasonably be identified. The fact that people with “real” NM tricked out M14 type rifles snickered at the name on his receiver (I forget if it was a Polytech or a Norinco), but Walt liked to say, “But what matters is the name on all the shooting stuff on my I Love Me Wall.”

    2. Sorry but that so-called satirical letter sounds more like cry-baby talk like bashing the guy driving the Ferrari for having the gall to flash his bling.

      Boy, Larry, this post is like a bug zapper for retards…

  172. Oh dear christ am I late finding this. About laughed myself silly. And actually started to howl with laughter when someone pointed out the scat site numbers for Germany.

    At any rate, Larry, you haven’t said anything I haven’t already thought based on my personal USP ownership experiences (USP45 and USP40C) as well as my experience running an indoor firing range. I’ve been known to joke that the motto should be “We’re H&K and we don’t care, ’cause we don’t have to.” I ditched the 40 in favor of a Kimber that was sheer joy to shoot and never failed me, not once.

    If memory serves correctly, I believe Vickers and Hackathorn pointed out to the H&K folks how to make a good trigger and they were brushed off because H&K “knows how to make a trigger”. I still have yet to find one with a good trigger.

    As for the fanboi talking about over-penetration, he’s clearly never personally compared a 5.56mm round to a 9mm hp. Hint, the 9mm can punch through three walls plus the 2″ side of a 2×4 deck railing, before stopping in a joist that it struck diagonally.

    P.S. Great first book Larry. Looking forward to the second one.

  173. Cannot believe we haven’t seen this before. One of our friends pointed it out. A gun is a tool. You don’t buy a tool for a name or a look, you buy it cuz it’s reliable and it works. Larry, you may be the funniest pontificating smart-ass out there (after us, of course).

    Love ya.

  174. Enjoyed the thread and learned a lot reading it. Thanks to Larry Im not sorry I passed on the HK45 I was thinking about and got an American made Wilson combat Stealth instead…..

    Seeing this is still January I’ll wish all a wonderful 2011.

  175. Hey I just wanted to say I enjoyed your post I actually saved it. I own a Usp .40 and I’ve always liked HK but I do agree the ergonomics on there rifles are horrible and as much as I love my usp it’s too damn big to cc. Also I have called them a few times regarding the 416 and a 357 sig barrel for my .40 and there usually a bunch of dicks. I wanted to ask you since you seem to know your stuff. I can’t decide on which rifle to buy my to choices at the moment are the new Steyr a3 with of course the ar mag conversion and I really like the sig 516. I know the obvious points of reference in this decision but I just feel like I need the damn aug. Can you five me your opinion. Hopefully you’ve shot the aug. I’ve owned an ar-10 and have shot g3’s ak’s ar-15’s never an aug please tell me your thoughts.

    1. That’s a tough one. I like both. 🙂

      I’ve got this weird thing where I like bullpups though. They’re kind of a love/hate thing for most so you really need to play with one first.

  176. OK. H&K pistols are somewhat overpriced… I agree. But not that much.

    First of all, I’m not one of those H&K maniacs/fanboys/whatever. I do own ONE H&K pistol (among several other pistols & wheelguns) and for me it’s hard to understand what is SO bad about H&K pistols. So, they placed few rounds backwards into a magazine in a commercial photo. That was embarrassing for H&K, I totally agree. But does that make their pistols any worse? I’m pretty sure that who ever placed those rounds in that magazine, was not part of H&K’s weapon engineering department….
    Like I said, I own many other pistols besides my USP Tactical 45. IMHO that pistol is no worse than for example my Kimber 45 or SIG P226. In some aspects it’s better. I got it with a reasonable price, and it’s far more accurate and nearly as fast to shoot as my production Glock 17 – and rest assured, that is pretty fast for a .45 (El Prez 4.45s)
    What I’m saying is that even if H&K’s marketing is what you claim it to be, they make decent or great pistols that are NOT obligatory to buy.
    How about you cook up stories about your favourite weapon and tell good things about it rather than bash other manufacturers…?
    But hey, what would I know. I already proved my lack of intelligens by buying a H&K weapon.

    For the record, I have little or no experience with H&K rifles so I have no comment on those. MP5 however, is a fine LE weapon (although its a PITA to clean).

  177. LEO45,

    You missed the whole point.

    HK firearms are simply not good enough in performance or value to justify their horrid attitudes towards paying customers, nor the rabid justification of their fans.

    It’s bad enough when I see the ubiquitous, “You’re just jealous, because you’re not a Real Operator, and you can’t afford the Vorpal Firearms of Destruction HK sells.” I’m waiting for the tearful YouTube video, “Just leave Heckler und koch alone!!!” by some fat loser in $100 of crap nylon gear (previously black, now Coyote Brown) and a wall festooned with airsoft replicas.

    HK firearms are about teh quality and value of Rugers (and I likes me some Ruger guns), yet they are marketed and priced as if premium — Hell, Les Baer doesn’t even push his stuff that hard, and he really DOES have a premium product line.

    Other than that, HK REALLY excels in three areas:

    1. Developing otherwise good guns with the ergonomics of, say, a HiPoint, and then charging SIG+ prices. Nope — I like guns I’m paying for to feel good in my hands — I tend to shoot them better (or maybe just more often. . . )

    2. Product Placement in every movie, TV show, and video game they can find. Sorry, but I have no real need to “look cool” in my weapons choice, unless I specifically set out to do so. Admitedly, I do have a pimped out shotgun — but it started as a way to add weight and therefore reduce recoil for my wife’s comfort, and after a while I decided to intentionally take it to extremes as a joke — but everything on it is of use, and nothing that (IMNSHO) detracts from it’s utility as a house gun. It’s more than I would have bothered with — I’d have stopped at a light, sights, sling, and a buttcuff for shells if it was entirely up to me; but once I decidd to push the weight as high as possible, I decided to have a laugh with it.

    3. Trying to revive failed Teutonic firearms concepts, like some demented zombie master, apparantly solely becuase they ARE indisputibly German ideas. Sorry, I don’t need mindless nationalistic pride as a substitute for good engineering.

  178. Haha ok ok, so you are telling me that you think HK pistols are no better than rugers? Have you ever shot or even held an HK pistol? Has your ruger ever been frozen to -44 degrees F fired flawlessly, then heated to 165 degrees F and fired flawlessly and then repeated without malfunctions? Dont think so. Everyone likes to rip on HKs customer service, but everytime I have ever contacted them, I have recieved great customer service. Maybe they just dont like dealing with people who have no knowledge about a weapon they are holding and expect a crash course covering every detail about it over the phone. We can sit here and say everything about a company’s customer service when really, im pretty sure every manuf. has had an employee who got fed up towards the end of the day and sounded like he had an attitude. I sure would if I had to listen to the idiot who wrote this article blab over the phone. By the way, the dude above me continues to trash HK, and then goes on to say he has a “pimped out” shotgun which he added wait to to reduce recoil…. wait, isnt that what the guy in this article bashed HK’s rifles about?? So wait… more weight does= less recoil?? Of course it does what are ya retarded? By the way the author of this article can be found saying how he likes the 1911 and how it is his favorite gun. No way!!! do we have another 1 of those guys? Get good at shooting a 1911(which is cake by the way) and call yourself an expert eh? I guess it is hard to shoot a gun that has absolutely no trigger creep, and has about a 3 1/2 pound trigger pull. Theres no possible way you could easily get good groups with that gun. No shit, thats why its one of the easiest pistols in the world to shoot and why mr. browning was a genius. While it is one of the easiest guns to be accurate with, and most naturally pointing guns in the world, it is also one of the most picky ones with regards to ammo, mags, weather etc. This is what sets the polymer guns away form your beloved 1911. You are american! you like steel, and john browning! You must own 1911! I didnt think people could be so ignorant and stupid, but hey, we let George W. stay in office for 8 years so I guess we are that fuckin dumb. You get this guy saying this retarded shit, and a bunch of morons who cant afford HK pistols jump on the band wagon to make themselves feel better about their recent purchase of a Taurus, or a Gen4 glock that just shit on them, or a 1911 that cant shoot dick without jamming, or a smith and wesson sigma that has a 12 lb double action trigger pull and a complete piece of donkey shit but hey, its a smith man, its the beez knees! Truth is HK pistols are highly regarded by military and law enforcement around the world, not because of their price tag, but because they fuckin work no matter what the condition, and will fire over 30,000 rounds of +P ammunition, because their recoil springs dont wear out after 2k rounds, and because they are just as accurate as the 1911. Now, Im not an HK fanboy/fanatic/whatever, I do have experience with a variety of pistols such as HK, Sig, Colt, Smith, Ruger, Kimber, Glock, STAG, Bushmaster, springfield, and all I can say is, sorry dickhead, but you do suck, and HK does hate you, because your a fuckin ass. <<look at endurance test for P30, and HK45, then read something about the extensive USP and Mark23 testing the proof is in the puddin… dick. Get some knowledge in your head before you go pull shit outta your ass and call it chocolate.

    1. What language are you typing in? It looks like English, but without punctuation, grammar or proper spelling.

      As you are clearly foreign and don’t use English as a first language, allow me to gently remind you that Mr Correia was a dealer in a variety of weapons, including Class III, and did and does compete in various matches. So he does actually have some experience to speak from.

      Several of us commenting in this thread are combat vets.

      For “Im not an HK fanboi,” you sound awfully like an HundK apologist. It seems no other gun will suit you.

      But you know what they say, a poor craftsman always blames his tools.

      It’s a good thing you never had to qualify expert with the M9, M1911 and M10, as some of us did. I thank my luck none of those weapons jammed on me, and the range was warmer than -44. It was also luck that I hit the target 40 times out of 40 with each of them. If only I’d had an HunK, forged in the Fires of Mount Doom and quenched in the semen of Herren Heckler and Koch themselves…

    2. 1. Yes, I added weight to my shotgun to reduce felt recoil. Because my wife (new to shotguns) thought the recoil was too much for fun practice. Of course, that gun is a house gun and doesn’t get humped any further than from the bedroom to the car and back again, so excessive weight is irrelevant, as long as she can hold it up for a few minutes. (Arm strength, she’s got — having a five year old who likes to be carried does that for a person; so does a hobby involving muzzleloaders nearly two meters long.) With all the crap on it, it weighs and recoils about like her .80 matchlock does — so its comfortable.

      2. As I posted; after a while, I kept going as a JOKE, to see how much crap I could bolt on the damned thing without adversely affecting its utility. But now I have a shotgun with 25 rounds in or on the gun (I keep the chamber empty), a Streamlight TLR2s (I didn’t see the need for the damned laser, but she liked the idea, so. . . ), a Limbsaver recoil pad, and a decent 2-point sling with a bailout buckle and a CAT TK (I hate 3-points and 1-points — I am neither Spiderman nor SAS CRW; at the length I have the 2-point adjusted, I can still use either shoulder without changing anything). Still have to get decent irons for accuracy and I’m still contemplating a micro red-dot for S&G. Might figure a way to put a bayonet lug on there, just to make Sarah Brady cry.

      3. A 7.62x51mm battle rifle kicks less than a 12 gauge pump shotgun — so the fact that my shotgun (as setup & loaded – about 10.5 lbs) weighs about what a loaded G3 weighs (9.7 – 10 lbs unloaded) SHOULD mean that the shotgun kicks about the same — and yet the G3’s recoil is more objectionable than either my shotgun with slugs or the (lighter than the G3) FAL. (Admittedly, when the shotgun was only 7lbs empty, it was more objectionable than the G3.)

      4. In Larry’s original post from three and a half years ago, he mentions the excessive weight of the sniper versions of the G3 — and in point of fact, to get that accuracy out of the G3, HK felt it necessary to add that much weight (primarily to stifen it up). Of course, it’s a SNIPER RIFLE, so heavy is OK. More to the point is the fact that these rifles cost 4- 5 times what similarly performing rifles cost, with no real advantage.

    3. Forgot to mention the Ruger love.

      Rugers have equal triggers to most HK pistols, SIGNIFICANTLY better reliability than most HK pistols, UNBELIEVABLY better ergonomics than most HK pistols, and cost peanuts compared to ANY HK pistols.

      Sure they are ugly — even doofy looking. They’re also relatively heavy, compared to similar sized pistols from almost anyone else (but, as a side note, you could beat a Balrog to death with a Ruger P89 family gun after you run out of ammo, and it’ll still work once you get more ammo — beefy AND solid).

      However, Ruger service pistols friggin’ WORK, work well, and do so at a price point that makes them very attractive. I personally don’t care for them (primarily for the trigger and esthetics), but I’d trust one I just picked up with my life about as far as I’d trust ANY gun I hadn’t already blown a few hundred rounds through.

  179. O O O and glock used in LE agencies thing while true, is NOT because they are all that is awesome and are supreme and most reliable ever. Its because they are cheap to manufacture and are reliable weapons and LE agenices get them for a DAMN good deal. If they could get HK for such a good deal, do you think they would pick the glock still??? uhhh nope. You say… “HK are DECENTLY reliable” really? Just decently reliable? and “same quality to that of ruger”???? haha… ok bud. Your ignorance makes me laugh. I thank you for that.

      1. Thanks, Michael- now I need a new keyboard. 😀
        Man, this really IS the post that just keeps on giving…

  180. Way late but better late than never at all. I was just wondering what thoughts were on the brief HK foray in the sporting arms world is from the author. I am specifically talking about brief runs of H&K 770’s chamber in .308 and .223 that were sold as purpose built hunting rifles that prior to 1986 could be had a great prices ( 450-500$) incorporated military designs such as fold down rear sights and top mounted quick release optics.

    I carry and shoot a Glock 20c daily because H&K does not make a trigger or a gun I would trust my life to as and EDC. I am just wondering about a topic that was not touched in this discussion which I have learned a great deal from.

  181. Great post! I own several HKs, and compared to my Glocks, I would say they were not worth the extra $600 – $1200.

    You are also completely correct about the lack of aftermarket gear and the outragous pricing. It’s cool to have a few HK guns, but I don’t see what the obsession is with being an HK fanboy.

  182. I’ve been to 2 S&W armorers school (mp and 3rd gen auto), glocks armorers school, and HK armorers school.

    S&W and Glock schools were fun, great, and they were willing to accept that their pistols were not perfect (as none are). HK were douche pickles. Pompous asses with an overpriced shitty product.
    Amen to your rant.

  183. While I have never pesonally owned an HK, I have had the pleasureof being able to fire an MP5, Thompson, and a MAC-10 at a range near where I live. I have to say, aside from the difficulty at first in figuring out how cock the mac, the Thompson was still my favorite. Military model, stick magazines, had no trouble being accurate with it at the 20 yard range on the first attempt to fire. The mac, as expected, went through the rounds quickly, but was not as accurate. The MP5 was disappointment though. Appeared to be a very early version, the fire selector was busted and stuck in 3 round burst, and the stock was not working right. They seemed to have issues getting it fixed. I went back there multiple times, never touching one of the HK products there again due to the past experiences. I considered getting a MK23 when I had first turned 21, however the 2300 dollar price tag was too much, and I ended up finding on sale a Taurus PT101 40 caliber double stack pistol for less tha 15 percent of that price which I use in speed shooting matches at a different range once in a while.

  184. I have to giggle at HK…I have a USP Compact 9mm. That thing has NASTY muzzle flip issues. And I am not the only one that has said that anyone that has shot my gun has said it including instructors. It also had a major issue with malfunctions. Although that seems to have worked itself out now after about 2000 rounds of ammo going through it. But I will say this I will most likely get another gun for home defense since I am not sure I want to trust it if SHTF.

  185. Ahem!
    Glocks are AUSTRIAN.
    Their trgger system dates back to 1907 (The Roth-Steyr M7) when the Imperial Austrian Army demanded an autopistol WITHOUT a safety. (War isn’t accident prevention week)
    There is NOTHING teutonic about a gun without external safeties and a minimum of parts. Originally most of their guns had an abundance of safeties, decockers and other stuff nobody needs.

    But: There is actually a H&K gun that I like. The P 7. Still, while I carry a G 19 during work, I prefer a 4″ .357 for off-duty use. (I guess most people here will not know the Manurhin MR73)

    BTW German gun laws are much more restrictive than those of Austria or switzerland. We just speak almost similar languages.

    One more thing: German Police Officers have to use german guns. Only SWAT units and the GSG9 CT unit are allowed their own decisions. Guess what: They use Glock.

    best regards


  186. Too funny, but true!! I have only owned one H&K product, a USP Compact in .40 S&W that I won at a match. After trying to deal with the H&K “Customer Service Department”, I sold it and bought a Glock 23 instead. I was only trying to purchase a DAO/LEM trigger for the USP but it did not seem like they were interested in selling me one. I have about 6,000-rounds through my Glock 23.

    I personally know of a Tactical team who dumped their G36s, MP5s and UMPs because of the crappy service they received from H&K. They now use LWRC rifles in all sorts of configurations and calibers and the last I heard, they were extremely happy with their choice.

    Bar none, H&K has the worst Business Model in the Gun Industry. If they were not so elitist about who they sold their 416 uppers to, they would have dominated the piston AR market a long time ago. But since they are able to stay afloat through the practice of basically gouging the taxpayers by continuing to sell their overpriced products to our military and some LE agencies (mostly Federal); why would they bother to actually look up what “Customer Service” means?

    1. You think it’s bad down state side, try being in Canada.

      Once upon a time a young shooter had a new USP in 9mm. When he got to 4000 rounds or so the unthinkable happened. The trigger bar cracked. It didn’t snap clean but it was enough that it didn’t reliably engage the sear anymore.

      No problem, call HK USA for a part, right?
      NOPE: HK USA is not registered to export under current US law because their parent company, HK GMBH has literally expressly forbidden HK USA from direct foreign sales and therefore HK USA cannot export ANYTHING. Not a screw, not a spring, not a manual, not even an HK sticker.

      Eh, no problem right? Call HK GMBH for a part, right?
      NOPE: HK GMBH cannot export due to German export laws to individuals and besides, they don’t deal with directly with North American customers. He’ll have to talk to their Canadian distributor, R. Nicholls.

      Okay, no problem right? Call R.Nicholls for a part right?
      NOPE: R.Nicholls does NOT honor the HK warranty (even though they are the distributor), and they will not make any firearm part sales to individuals. He will have to call a licensed dealer and they will have to order the part.

      Sight, well no problem right? Call up Wolverines Supplies.
      NOPE: Wolverine did it best to help and begged R.Nicholls to bring in the part, but R.Nicholls will only bring in HK parts as part of their ANNUAL shipment from HK GMBH. 9 month waiting period and it would cost $110 for the replacement bar.

      And if the above hasn’t made you cry yet this will. He couldn’t sell the gun to anyone. Best he could do was sell off the magazines and some some small parts…. don’t ask what happened to the gun. It’s not a happy ending.

  187. I recently paid $3000 for a nib HK 91, but I am not going to let it go to my head, nein! Lots of very nice .308s that cost less, shoot better, nicer triggers. I hope this new generation of HK staff freaks out because I bought a rifle they made. Maybe they fear sellng the 416 to civilians because we are free to speak up a constructively critique the rifle. I also own a SP89 and a VP70z, which while innovative, had a horrible trigger. The only thing I can say is that Century and Hesse can make shootable AK 47s, but HK G3 and HK 33 seem to be beyond their means. Perhaps this means Russian designs are more practical than German designs.

  188. I handled the HK P2000sk when I was looking at buying my first CCH semi-auto pistol. It felt a lot like a Springfield XD. Only the grip was horrible and the trigger was (at best) equal to my Taurus 85b3. I still haven’t figured out why the decock button is on the rear of the frame. Why is it a button?

    For half of the price you can get a Springfield XD 4″ or Sub Compact with the essentials pack. You get a very similar grip, similar top heavy feel, and a better trigger. Then again you could also get a CZ 75 Compact or Compact PCR and have a better grip, better trigger, and change left over for holsters and ammo.

    HK fandom has always left me baffled and bemused.

  189. If you think HKs suck then don’t buy them. simple. If you think something else is better then shut up and buy it. simple.

  190. Ah, the G36. Its a very nice weapon in my opinion and very accurate once its sights are calibrated…and you actually know how to shoot.

    1. Its a very nice weapon in my opinion and very accurate once its sights are calibrated…and you actually know how to shoot.

      …and you don’t mind broke-dick charging handles.

      (Seriously, is there some kind of law in Germany that makes usable charging handles a felony or something?)

      1. Now I like a port side charging handle, and the idea that I can reach it with my right hand if I’m shooting lefty is nice. I like the way the charging handle works as an administrative BHO on the CETME clones HK sold.

        But, yeah, is it UNpossible to move the chargng handle to wear non-orangutans can reach it without reaching WAAAAAY out by the muzzle? You know, like the MP44, the FAL, Stoner (and it’s grandnephew, Robarm XCR), BAR, etc. — or are they just too advanced for the HK clone of a CETME refinement of a 1945 Nazi design to compete with?

        Still love the way this thread is generating comments. At 5 Meatspace years this coming October, is this thread considered the internet version of the Cambrian or Devonian Periods?

      2. Maybe its a safety feature. Its hard to have an ND if you cant buy the gun and the charging handles are rubbish.

  191. I owned a PTR-91 for about 6 mos. It was a well made gun… but it ruined my brass, had a crap safety, was very nose heavy, kinda a pain in the ass to field strip (if you accedently pushed the bolt down onto the carrier, it was a PITA to unfuck it) and while accurate it wasn’y any better then my MAS 49/56. Personally, I wouldn’t own another one if it came with a bull that pissed Jack Daniels.

  192. Lot of folks with their H&K phD’s (playa hater degrees). Monster Hunters? Doubtful. Green eyed monster strokers definitely.

  193. Just want to be a part of Internet and HK hating history and share an odd little story. Back when I lived in Idaho reds trading post had a HK days event with a HK factory rep. I went down there intending to pick his brain on some rumored products they probably won’t come out with. Well i’ll be damned if he got much more info out of me than I got out of him. He had never heard of SL8 to G-36 conversions, or that the mark 23 pistol featured prominently in a movie I had recently seen. The movie being District 13, a movie I highly recommend.

  194. Got the sneer and don’t get on with the H und K fanboy gunshop owner local to me that does a lot of NFA because I pointed out to people in his store one day that they’d better spend their money buying a Dan Wesson/CZ .45 as far as out of the box or an STI or a Virgil Tripp STI custom build, he still does those now and again, or have (insert number of good smiths here and in bordering states) build them what they want. Kimbers are a lot better than they used to be too, and I have a few of them I quite like.

    As for long guns, if you want something ridiculously heavy and therefore accurate that’s better engineered with nicer ergos as long as you don’t mind ear plugs instead of muffs to be able to use the sights properly, my Closed Bolt BREN semi build from a bunch of torch cut stuff outshoots anything H und K ever made and doesn’t destroy brass. Much less than 10k and outshoots anything H und K have ever marketed. Let me know when they start marketing a super heavy rifle that does 1/4″ or better at 100 reliably.

    As to combloc stuff, it’s all not stamped, either. VZ-58s cost less than G-3s and their relatives, are nicely machined, and also don’t destroy brass. What do I know? I built almost all my Mauser sporters on BRNO actions, not German ones, as the general metalworking is better, so there’s less to clean up.

    They can say I suck and they hate me and I won’t buy their stuff and point people at stuff that works better.

  195. The US Army sent me to Norway on an exchange for blah blah no one cares. Long story short, I indeed HAVE shot the HK 416. Let me give you guys the run down. It shoots exactly the same as any M16 the army has gifted me and told me to go blast rounds out of. The only differences is that the piston keeps the internal workings cleaner (cool story, I have a cleaning kit for that) and the bolt stays cool (great, but your barrel is STILL going to melt) What Larry is saying about the HK 416 rings true. Why? Because “HK. Because you suck. And we hate you.”

    1. Thought this thread would have faded quietly after Osama Bin Laden was popped by a team of legitimate pros all carrying H&Ks – but oh yeah, it was about customer service. Well that customer was served.

      1. Because you know for a fact what weapons the legitimate pros were carrying on a classified mission.

        And they couldn’t have been nearly as effective with any lesser weapon. Only an HundK could have fired a bullet in that compound.

      2. Where’s you get your information? I’d really like to know. Are you also suggesting that only “pros” carry HK? Because I can site a lot of instances where “Pros” (or did you mean “Bros?” ) have used non HK products. I know that’s an alien idea, but its true.

      3. The german press reported it as an MP7 in the first weeks after the action before quickly retracting with no explanation, and SOCOM chatter for a year now has said it was an HK416. DevGru favors both and it was their mission.
        Mark bissonnette’s a jackass for publishing details and tactics of that operation, but he mentions a sig handgun and three suppressed Heckler and Kochs: HK45, MP7, and a 10.5 inch HK416 – and that two suppressed shots to the head dropped him.

        Now for the wildly extrapolating couple of chumps: yeah they could have done it with a lesser gun, but given the option of the best tool for the job, they ran HK, despite the possibility of being “nearly effective” with something else.

        Second, “have” is the key word since its in the past tense – concerning what the world’s finest have used in the past. Also, are you saying DevGru’s operators aren’t pros? Well they are, I know that’s an alien idea but… hahaha

      4. Oh, a German newspaper told you once…and then redacted it. Color me impressed. That is obvious proof its the greatest gun in the world.

      5. The hilarious thing is there are a lot of actual “operators” in this thread. I’m sure they’re excited to have you here to tell them their job.

        You of course failed to notice that you, and every other fanboi here, are doing exactly what Larry said fanbois do.

        Okay, that’s two hilarious things.

        So, how many awesome takedowns have you performed with an HundK, or even a .38 Smith?

        Thought so.

  196. I owned an HK 91 for a short time. I took it to the range twice then sold it and almost doubled my money. I turned around and bought an FN-FAL. Best thing I’ve ever done.

  197. Awesome article. I have an h&k pistol and I dig it. The article has illuminated how truly elitist and cliquey. A few years ago, I went to the shop I spend my gunmoney at, with intentions of buying a compact or subcompact holdout weapon. I got a crazy deal on it(by h&k prices). I love it. It is reliable, and accurate. I haven’t worked with ever so many different makes and models. It’s the best handgun I’ve ever owned. I’m wondering if that’s pathetic now. I didn’t know that there were people who were all militant about calling the manufacturer strictly “HK” with no “&”. I have resolved to only refer to the manufacturer as “H&K”. That is total bull$&it about the rifles. Before reading this, I wanted a bunch of their other products. I still dig ’em but I’m way more inclined towards open-minded shopping. I’m waiting for a stall at my local range/overpriced shop/social mess, this composition may seem fragmented. I appreciate this article a bunch man. Was there an official letter to the consumer from H&K that was an armature or prompt for this much needed revelation? Thanks very much all the same man. Stay healthy.

  198. That’s okay. I hate everyone who hates H&K like this Larry the loser! Hahaha. And if YOU hate H&K I hate you too because you’re probably some loser who likes Glock just because you’re a mindless ‘tard who hopelessly follows trends to feel like you belong! Nana-nana-nana! :-p

      1. So you hate people who follow trends but you are a HundK fanboi? I think someone needs to tell the short bus driver to turn around, he left one of the helmet wearing kids behind again…

  199. This guy might be correct about firearms but he obviously knows nothing of cars. Ferraris are hand built and worth every penny of their price tag. And I have driven one so I can say that. I highly doubt this jackass has ever driven a car worth more than his most expensive gun. Furthermore he promotes his shitty book at the end of his childish rant. Nice one.

    1. Well hello there, dipstick replying to a six year old blog post.

      As for my knowledge of Ferraris, they are nice, but they do break down. And they do so more often than a Toyota that didn’t cost as much as a middle class home. Sorry. Take it up with Jeremy Clarkson. I was just using an analogy.

      Furthermore, I did promote my shitty book at the end of my childish rant. Over the many years since this blog post was written, that shitty book has spawned a series of New York Times bestsellers (don’t worry, they’re probably pretty shitty too), won some awards, been reprinted a whole bunch of times because it is still a top seller, had the TV rights sold to the same company that makes the Walking Dead on AMC, been one of the best selling audibooks in the world for a few years in a row, been translated into a bunch of foreign languages, and launched a writing career for several other series of books, landed me more contracts and work that I know what to do with, and made me more than enough money to buy a Ferrari if I felt like it, but I don’t, because I’m not an idiot.

      Have a pleasant day. 🙂

    2. How does his shitty book compare to yours? And which one of his dozen bestsellers is his shitty one?

      BTW, do Ferraris break down less often than say, Corvettes or Vipers? I’m asking because I don’t know. A certain amount of price is relevant to quality, but there are diminishing returns.

    3. “And I have driven one so I can say that.”
      So your a parking valet? Which is why I never let your kind even touch my ride.

  200. I tend to see the HK fan boys as the liberals of the gun world, they scream and shout about how great something (usually the 416) is, but when asked why, they cant give you a real answer, and resort to insults.

  201. HK make a living selling weapons to armys and police forces the american civillian market is a strange beast they niether understand or really care for half a dozen civillian hk416 are not going to keep them in rhein gld for very long.

    1. A “half a dozen civilian HK416”?

      Yeah, if HK really thought that was the extent of the market, I could understand their reluctance. Kind of surprising if they did, considering how many thousand HK91, HK94, etc. they sold before the first import ban. . .

  202. You hate HK fanboys imagine how much the germans hate weird yankees who have an unhealthy obession with their products?
    The mark 23 did exactly what SOCOM wanted in a weapon unfortunatly like a lot of procument ideas it was a stupid set of proposals you want a match grade pistol that can shoot thousands of rounds accuratly out to 50 metres its going to be big and bulky.
    HK never really got over the shock of the SAS getting somebody to chop up a load of g3s to create the G7 shorty an intresting weapon to say the least. Letting a lot of american civillians. Loose or their tuetonic prefection is too much to bear then you have california with its frankly random gun law and whatever “brilliant” solution to nutters shooting up schools eventually makes into law. Selling to american civillians begins to look like a headache.
    i know someone who works for accuracy international in the UK he gets to answer the phone every time future weapons is on its bad enough dealing with the MOD let a
    One random people from the US
    HK love the british public but then we cant buy any of their products at any price they can concontrate on ripping off our police forces:( yah of course you need pgs1 hk36 and some suppresed mp5s for a south coast county police force.

  203. My H&K experience was with a 770 sporting rifle. Had a claw mount that was mounted on the receiver cover that was held on with a screw. Naturally, it printed more like a shotgun with the scope, so I always used the open iron sights. It used the same bolt and carrier as the G3,with a weird cocking handle linkage that had several small parts. It was a fast, naturally pointing rifle. I picked it up in ’91 for 350 bucks and sold it to a “H&K fanboy” for 1300 a couple years ago. I don’t miss that rifle at all.

    I have a Steyr SSG69. I think those went for about 1300 last time they were on the market. With the Burris LE scope that came on it, I’m willing too put it up against that 10 thousand dollar H&K abortion, they can even stick one of their fancy 5000 dollar german scopes on it.

    See you at the range.

  204. The difference between German Engineering and US Engineering is simple:

    A friend of mine, working at BMW in Munich, was invited in US by Ford, for 6 months. In the first day, he saw the Ford workers building the car and asked: wait…they are simply putting the sheets of steel, just like that? without any electrolitic treatment agaisnt rust? wihout anything? His American host looked surprised: buddy, this is STAINLESS steel already! of course we don’t need to do anything (how stupid this German can be? he can’t even understand the word “stainless”).

    My friend didn’t argued any further, but was horrified. Because BMW really invests ALOT of time and money to treat the so called “stainless” steel correctly, before delivering it to their customers. 6 months later, after his return, he told me: do yourself a favor…NEVER buy anything American!

    – American cars look good, make alot of noise, but they are pure rubbish! Even high end products, like Lexus, are the result of the same American philosophy: do someting shiny, noisy, and take the money from the idiots.
    – American electronics (Whirpool, Pioneer) are in each and every aspect inferior to their European or Japanese competitors (Electrolux, Bosch, Sony etc).
    – in fact, American products are no better than Chinese products: they are only much more expensive!

    That’s why Detroit got bankrupt in 2013. That’s why the whole USA is bankrupt now. Because they are only show-off. There is no space for US products in today’s world:

    – as for high end products, West Europeans and Japanese are better.
    – as for middle line products, East Europeans and Koreans (Samsung) are more reliable, at the same price.
    – as for low end products, China and Taiwan offers better bargains.

    That’s also the difference between H&K and S&W (or Colt, or any other American company).

    My post is 100% impartial, and anything I said is cold hard engineering truth (you can check that with any specialist you want). Please excuse my bad English, but I hope my post can help you make the right decision and save you some money. Good luck and choose wisely!

    1. No, American car companies went bankrupt because union whores refused to modernize, be competitive, demanded pay for life including lavish pensions, that ate up all potential profit.

      Interestingly my last three American cars have all lasted over 300K miles, one to 470K. This includes the parts of them that were built in Canada or Japan. (Not China,)

      And didn’t some German company own Chrysler for a few years? Did they make all these alleged improvements to the cars in that timeframe?

      Also, which Ford was made of stainless body panels?

      After all these years, it’s still hilarious to watch you fanbois come in here and fit the exact stereotype Larry described–sucking the USP like some simulated phallus.

      Most successful military rifle in history: AK47. Second: AR15. HundK’s overpriced knockoff of the CETME ranks pretty far down the list, after the FAL, the Mauser, the Mosin Nagant, the SMLE and probably quite a few others. It’s so fucking awesome that no one buys it!

      Oh, yeah–one of my favorite guns is a Colt revolver made in 1919. It’s still got a .002 gap and fires perfectly. Come back in 50 years and tell me how your USP is doing.

      1. Ho,ho,ho! happy new year and cool down a bit! 🙂

        If my post hurt your American feelings I am genuinely sorry. We are not your enemy. In fact, nobody sane is. If the US economy crashes tommorow, we won’t be able to sell our BMW. The Arabians won’t sell their oil etc.

        No, my American friend, your worst enemy is…yourself. I completely agree about the “union whores”. But who let them rule your country? Was it not the American people itself? The American children learn about being lazy since day one at school: they see their teachers being paid the same, no matter if they work hard or not (and some teachers are even paid for…NOT working). This is not happening in Germany, I assure you.

        I hear many people blaming Mr. Obama for forcing US into socialism. But they are wrong: America was socialist long before Mr. Obama. Mr. Obama is just the top of the iceberg. In fact, as we speak (2014), you are far more socialist than China. Which is amusing, isn’t it? That’s why all uber-capitalist American multinationals relocate to China.

        That’s why the German products are better than US products: H&K >S&W and Colt. BMW > Lexus, Ford, GM. Etc. etc. Because we really give a damn,

        And no, I am not a HK fanboy. But I AM a fanboy of precision, of dedication, of hardwork, of the job well done.

        I completely agree about the AK47 being the most successful military rifle in history, because it was cheap and durable. Not because it was the most precise. And by the way, my personal pistol is not an HK, but a Jericho, a gift from an Israelian colleague. An excellent weapon. However, the HK remains the pinnacle of the human engineering, so far. As a specialist, I can only admire their perfection.

        Conclusion? No, we definitely don’t hate you. But yes, you suck, big time. 🙂

        1. I have British, Canadian and American passports. Trying to pigeonhole me will simply cause you to be wrong.

          Of course the US has been socialist for a long time. This has nothing to do with HundKs being mostly overpriced ripoffs of other designs, with fanbois who repeat marketing slogans and spout ignorance to defend them.

          And you still don’t seem to know how cars are made.

      2. Of course, dear Michael.

        You have so many passports…and you know how cars are made…and you know how guns are made too…and you are also a specialist in marketing…and you are over sixteen…so what could I say to such a great, intelligent, man like you? Except “good for you”, hehehehehe…

      3. Oh, heavens, Engi. . . your “story” about your “friend” is so full of fail it is unbelievable. As is the fact that you’re implying that Mike is a teenage poseur who’s never been outside his parent’s suburban house somewhere in the US. . .

        (Hint: he’s a public figure, posting under his real name.)

        Meanwhile, you started by telling a story whose WHOLE FOUNDATION is based on an easily determined falsehood. (Hint #2: there’s a reason the 1980’s flop of the DeLorean is known _primarily_ for two things – being used in a series of campy movies and the fact that it was one of the ONLY cars built in the US in modern times out of STAINLESS STEEL.)

        Mike can go into details as to WHY stainless steel alloys would generally be a remarkeably _stupid_ material for a mass produced car — I used to DO failure analysis on production of “cutting edge” exotic _STEEL_ alloy parts my old employer produced for a variety of companies. . . including Siemens and NASA, and Mike is a MUCH better metallurgist than I am.

    2. “The American children learn about being lazy since day one at school: they see their teachers being paid the same, no matter if they work hard or not (and some teachers are even paid for…NOT working). This is not happening in Germany, I assure you…”

      So basically your a historically illiterate troll (although I suppose that’s a given for most trolls). Since Bismark pretty much invented the welfare state.

  205. The author’s original little post was clever and humorous, but he really hit the nail on the head with his witty follow ups. Unfortunately, the issue here is much, much larger than H und K. The real issue is the myth of German superiority. The Germans have over glorified their works to such an absurd degree, that their hype has permeated the consciousness of many people, ergo creating legions of irrational fanboys who in turn continue the cycle of unwarranted praise and adulation, even infecting others with this horrid virus. Nowhere is this more evident than in the famous American TV commercial for ShamWoW. The salesman, a Jewish man named Vince, who was recently arrested for beating a hooker for biting and not letting go of his tongue, starts the commercial off by saying that this new “super towel” is invented in Germany, and you should buy it, because, and I quote: “you know the Germans ALWAYS make good stuff…” Of course anyone that actually bought and used a ShamWoW will tell you that it is sub par towelie that couldn’t even absorb a mosquito’s bukkake, and overpriced to say the least.

    The truth is, German technology is inherently flawed and inferior. German design methodology is fundamentally sick. Germans like to make everything big, heavy, expensive, and square shaped. Germans love squares. They also love to overcomplicate everything to the point that nothing actually works or works a little and then breaks down repeatedly. If you are objective and actually study history, especially the small arms and mechanized units of World War 2, you will see this.

    During the opening stages of Operation Barbarossa, Germany’s Army Group Center enjoyed many easy victories in Russia, and then hit a wall. Turns out that when the weather turned bad, German tanks broke down left and right. Some could not start their engines or fire their main gun until the tank crews built small fires to warm them up. Then they found out the hard way that every tank and static AT gun in their then arsenal was utterly useless against the Russian KV-1 and T34/76 tanks. The Germans shat bricks and quickly rushed to create new weapon systems like the 75mm Pak40 AT gun, and their now famous heavy tanks. They tried to copy the Russian T34/76 by creating the Panzer V, aka Panther. Although they gave it a nice 75mm gun and copied the T34’s sloped amour, the Panther was SO BADLY engineered that its gears and transmission broke down constantly, its tracks would not hold, and its engine would spontaneously combust, often leading to the explosion of its stored shells. Before the Battle of Kursk, aka Operation Citadel, while being unloaded at the railroad, most of the Panthers, fresh from ze superior Teutonic factories, literally broke down and fell apart like a cheap Chinese motorcycle. And what of the infamous Tiger Tank? The Germans simply took the biggest gun they had, the 88mm, and put it in the biggest square box they could make (Germans love squares). The result was a monster so heavy that it had constant mechanical failure, needed constant repairs, could not use most bridges, had horrible off road, cross country capability, got stuck everywhere, ate fuel by the barrels, and was so slow that it could be out maneuvered by a double amputee blind turtle. At best, German panzers could only work under ideal conditions, and even then they would be plagued by systematic mechanical failures and have severe reliability problems. The Russian SU 152, although having a few of its own problems, was a true marvel of superior engineering. It was created from scratch in just 20 days, and I mean the first rolling, firing model was built in just 20 days. It could pierce the front amour of a Tiger at a range of 1.5 kilometers, thereby earning the nickname “Zveroboy,” meaning “Big Game Animal Killer.” Likewise, the Russian BS-3 AT gun, could destroy any mechanized unit ze Germans fielded. The kinetic energy behind the BS-3 round itself was so massive that just striking the hull would turn its crew into human gravy. When the first Tiger II tanks were deployed on the eastern front, they were ambushed and destroyed by a handful of upgraded T34/85s. As for German infantry, they jizzed every time they could get their hands on a PPsh, Mosin, or an SVT-40. You see, most German small arms like the Kar98K or MP40, although excellent guns in their own way, could not handle the Russian weather and terrain, many would freeze or jam, especially the fabled Stg 44.

    Recently, the inventor of the AK, Michael Kalashnikov, passed away. I was outraged to see story, after story, after story in the news, as well as on Wikipedia, the History Channel, and the Military Channel, all boldly declare how the AK was copied from ze German Stg 44. This grotesque lie is usually brought up by people who have never seen how the internals of an Stg 44 look or operate. The Kalash’s internals have absolutely no resemblance to any German designs. Many people compare it to the STG-44 because they look a little alike, similar stock, and magazine. Internally, the Kalash is simple to the point it’s amazing it even operates. It uses a Long-Stroke gas tube with a basic rotating bolt, this was inspired by the M1 Garand. The STG used a tilting bolt with a series of over complex rollers and roller locks that hardly looks like any rifle action. The AK was based on 3 weapons: The Russian Avtomat Fedorov (the first assault rifle in the world), the Russian SVT-40, and the American M1 Garand. Fedorov is the father of the assault rifle concept and the assault rifle itself. Period. He came up with the concept for a selective fire rifle firing an intermediate cartridge which fed from a high capacity detachable box magazine prior to the First World War. His rifle first saw action in 1916, prior to the Germans fielding a submachine gun. He wrote extensively and was considered the father of automatic rifle design in Russia. He was brilliant and far ahead of his time. If anything, the Nazi designers used his writings as the foundation for their work. Fedorov set the pattern for the whole new class of infantry weapons, which rose to its heights during the late stages of WW2, and especially thereafter. Fedorov’s “Avtomat” is short recoil operated, locked breech weapon which fires from closed bolt. The bolt locking is achieved by two locking plates, located at either side of the breech. Those plates are allowed to tilt slightly down and up, locking and unlocking the bolt with special lugs. The barrel is fluted to save weight and improve cooling. Regarding German technological superiority in weapons design…how did they do regarding fielding a reliable semi-auto 7.92x57mm rifle? Not so hot…they used all the captured SVTs they could get their hands on.

    What we have here is the myth of German superiority, especially the myth of German superiority in weapons design and technology, which egregiously embellishes the prowess and value of their past and present implements of war, even going to the extent of stealing credit for other people’s works. The culmination of this myth of German superiority is made manifest in the pure madness of the H und K fanboys. If you want a window into the heart and soul of German design methodology, just study the Maus Tank. Only then can you hope to understand H und K. With his original post, Larry, with outstanding poise and wit, shined a light on this iceberg of deranged and delusional idea of German superiority, which has sadly infected and blinded many. H und K is just the tip of the iceberg, remember the ShamWoW commercial. For his contribution to humanity, Larry Correia should receive the Nobel Prize, at least in my opinion he deserves it more than Obama, but I digress… The only way to cure these rabid German fanboys is to gather them together and segregate them from the rest of society. Then, we should arm them with the latest and bestest H und K wonder weapons, and have a gladiator deathmatch with an opposing force armed with all the cheaper (and more efficient) weapons that they mock, revile, and look down upon.

    1. Dude, the sights look almost entirely the same. The stock looks almost entirely the same. The magazine looks almost entirely the same. The ammo are very close to each other in size.

      Also there is a cheaper version of the StG-44 that looks even more like the AK then the previous one and it was quiet simple to make actually.

  206. German engineering! It’s vunderbar!
    It’s not guns, but…
    I have a buddy with an older Audi. He’s several thousand dollars into trying to get a used computer to work in it (the old one died) because ONLY THE AUDI MECHANIC, USING AUDI BLESSED PARTS CAN FIX THIS MARVEL OF GERMAN ENGINEERING.

    He almost started crying when I told him, “Yeah, I had to replace the PCM on my ’99 Chrysler 300m. It was $250 from Auto Zone and came pre-programmed for the car.” And the year it was made, Car and Driver put my Chrysler in the same class as your Audi for handling, power and luxury.

    Shut up. I have a crapload of kids, and the car is paid for. Oh, and it’s apparently as good as the German engineering from the same era, only I can fix it for about a tenth of the price if it breaks down. And I can fix it in my driveway.

    Either way, my friend swore off German cars from that day forward.

    1. Well, German DIESEL passenger vehicles are very good. Admittedly, owning a gas powered Kraut Kar is a good way to put your mechanic’s kid through his first year of college… 🙂

  207. So glad I found this! Having lived in Germany as an exchange student for almost 2 years, this review is spot-on. Like most of us, they can be awesome folks or the most arrogant bastards on the planet.

    Unfortunately, their engineering tends to be their way or the Autobahn. My host father was a German engineer and his solution was the only solution. They don’t react well to work-arounds, quick fixes (whether reliable or not), or good old fashioned “redneck” engineering (I’m from MS and AL so I get to say this).

    BTW – Larry, the books are great. My son, my wife, and one of my D&D/gun buddies all love them! I hope you do a DragonCon Atlanta sometime so I can meet you and get your autograph.

  208. Love this thread. Former action guy (18B), been packing heat of one kind or another, personally and professionally, since the Carter administration.

    My unit trained with and used MP5s for some applications back then and we liked them, when the only other viable alternative was the UZI. There really wasn’t a lot else on offer at the time.

    The big advantage I saw was the closed bolt. I was a big early proponent of the accuracy advantages of the application of rapid semi-automatic fire over full-auto (only hits count) and the accuracy of the MP5 was quite good at this.

    You didn’t have to “lock in” or “muscle” the gun. It had a “good nose” and pointed well, like a good shotgun, and when fired rapidly, recoil was negligible. It just kind of sat there in your hands, the sight just sitting on the target. The other advantage was the ability to use optics like the early red-dot optics at the time. (Anybody else remember the Armson OEG?) And you could pipe-strap a Mag-light under the fore-arm.

    My $0.02 where H and K is concerned.

    PS: I did notice that Sterling was always happy if you showed up at the door with an official purchase order from N.C. Not so much if you came on your own to get your personally owned P7M13 worked on. Odd that.

    PSS: Everything Old is New Again: That exaggerated “C” clamp grip that is apparently The New Hotness amongst all The Cool Kids? Paul Poole showed me that trick with an M16A1 out at Mott Lake in 1981. FWIW.

  209. Funny stuff to read people talking about guns in a place called “monsterhunternation” and even more so on guns for grown-ups. I hardly ever read such a bunch of BS, however, admittedly you are right to a small part on the G3. However CETME is (or was) the Spanish state gun manifacturer. They produced the G3 in big numbers for Germany but the German Army found out rather quick that the Spainards were simply not able to deliver the desired quality So manifacture went back were it belonged to. I, btw, was given a G3 ZF during my service, being my groups DMR. The gun was stamped Rheinmetall, was (then) over 40 years old but shot like just out of the box. On the FAL: Some guy said the belgians turned us down but the FAL is in ther German Army commonly known as G1, being the first rifle the German Army after 1945 procured autonomously after initially being armed with American M1s and M1 Carbines etc. This was garbage, yet utterly needed. Honestly, you suck. Learn the facts and, for gods sake, stop crying about the fact that not all companies are willing to sell weapons of war to “monsterhunters” in the US (that suck more than HK ever will), let alone their EPERIMENTAL WEAPONS like the XM8. By the way I would like to suggest to you to buy the GWM, HKs granade launcher, but damn you are civillian an suppose they will not sell ist to you. I guess that would be the best for monsterhunting, dude.

    1. Yeah, I’m just a bestselling author now, but I guess you missed that bit where I’m a retired SOT Title 7. 🙂

  210. So why is it ok to be rascist against Germans? Sounds like your real problem is with people of Teutonic lineage. If you knew the political climate they deal with you’d be more understanding. Private ownership of firearms is very restrictive, and export laws on German made military goods are very strict and forbids in almost all cases civilian ownership of military technology. Btw if we were discussing IWI/IMI you know a lot more people other than myself would be offended by you bringing race into it.

    1. Congratulations. Of the many stupid comments on this extremely old post, I do believe you might have just won stupidest post. You should be very proud.

      1. Maybe he’ll say all this news that the G36 is shit, is some “conspiracy by the German anti-gun media”.

  211. I have an uber-rare HK 93, and despite it’s short-bus sights, it’s decently accurate. What is it not? Reliable.

    1. Most delayed blowback weapons ten to be pickier about case metallurgy than locked breech or pure blowback weapons. Not a problem for a military buyer – just make aure you apecify appropriate ammo in RFPs for ammo.

      Have you tried steel cased ammo? It’s not like you really want to reload cases fired in fluted chambers, after all.

  212. Schweinhunts !! You vill not laugh..Ze laffinks ist verboetens..!! < Hands out the happy slaps..;D

  213. A funny post to be sure, but I should just note that H&K was the only arms manufacturer to try and fight the Assault Weapons Ban. Surprise surprise, the Ban went through with no resistance, and resulted in most of H&K’s rifles being unable for sale to civilians in the US.

    But at the end of the day, for reasons of familiarity, circumstance and company direction, the company has decided that its primary market is the Military/Law Enforcement market, and that’s where it’ll focus its energies. Is that so really wrong?

    As for the Mark 23, in H&K’s defense, they built exactly what SOCOM wanted. It’ s not their fault that what SOCOM wanted was retarded. :p The PSG-1 was a specialist weapon developed 30-odd years ago, and nobody at H&K thought it was going to be a hot seller. (And 10 grand is chump change for a military weapon system…)

    While the G3’s destruction of brass is a concern for the civilian shooter, it is not an issue a military worries about, and the shit trigger is a feature, not a bug: you don’t want some halfassed dumbass conscript dropping the rifle and the sensitive trigger going off.

    Having said that, there are legitimate issues with HK, as the recent scandal with using substandard plastic in manufacturing their G36s revealed.

    That’s the beauty of the free market. You have other options.

    1. No gun goes off when you drop it. It’s called a “drop safety”, everything but some shotguns has one.

      It’s a hundred year old feature, might actually be older.

  214. I know for a fact that not ALL of our SOF guys hate HK sidearms (maybe yes, the larger Mk 23, but USP’s?). In fact, there are guys I’ve met very, very recently that literally stated this (hence why I was surfing the net for articles about the vice versa side of that) and they LOVE their USPs…And two of them, being former CT/SMU operators now working for ICE and the other for a PMC (i think), as well as for the SIG Academy or something, said they both use .357 Sig USPs as service weapons…i.e have used them IN a real life DFE (as well as the last few deployments they had w/ their respective SOF units). The Mk 23 may suck, but seeing both guys with twisted up, grizzled USPs that literally survived a decade of abuse in their time w/ JSOC and then civilian LE w/ these guys, I like to think the HK brand isn’t all bad (and yes, I’m defending a USP, but still downright despise “too cool for school” HK reps etc….BUT they don’t know their own customers obviously, as these two guys would tell them to eat a dick if they saw em act like sh_ts at SHOT).

  215. Very funny article, but I’ve had a lot of experience with the MP-5 and I can attest to it being THE FINEST Sub-machinegun in the World! Their rifles and pistols do suck though.

  216. Bought a stainless USP compact in 9mm two year ago. Because I “had to have one.” First problem… a gun this size should hold 15 rounds, not 12. Why, H&K? Second, the guide rod bushing slides around making the gun sound like it’s broken. This, I’m told is normal and can be corrected with heavy grease. Again, why, H&K?

    Then I go to shoot it. Odd sight picture that requires you to completely obscure the target rather than aligning the front sight.

    I’m gonna sell it. I don’t like striker-fired guns, but I’d take a Glock 19 over this thing all day, and keep roughly $300 in change. Or I could sell, and for even money, get a far superior sig P228/9 that’s about the same size.

  217. A very old thread, but….

    I’ve owned a number of European and USA handguns over the years and have to say that the European guns are far more superior in quality and accuracy. My only gripe is that the European guns prefer European ammo.

    But, to appear hypocritical, my Sig Sauer X6 loves the hand loaded ammo that I’mloaing. Its a .9mm tack driver at 50m!

    The worst handgun I ever purchased was a Springfield .45 long slide. I thought with the longer barrel/slide it would be an accurate gun. Nope. Gave it to an A grade IPSC shooter (whose also a gunsmith and 1m x better shot than me) and said “mate, get rid of it.” Its a piece of shit….

    Bought the H&K Socom (that was back in 1999) and it was an absolute beauty.

    Then I bouht the H&K USP Elite which outshot a STI that I had in .38 super. I got rid of the Elite which is one of my biggest regrets, but, the X6 is filling a void.

    I’m no expert in guns. I just love shooting.

    My biggest gripe, is that its near impossible to get H&K in Australia now (I’m hearing the same “civvie market isn’t what H&K care about” comment also

    Guess I’ll buy more Sigs?

    1. Uh, has no-one else here EVER heard of “SPELL CHECK”?! And Andrew, where in hell did you find that .9mm Sig ‘tack driver’? . . . (.0354″/3.5cal, 20% of a .177BB)! 😉

  218. SOUR GRAPES, of the mall ninjas.

    If HK doesnt want to sell to civilians, maybe its because given the lawsuit loving US, they dont want to hire more lawyers who will have to defend HK from lawsuits when someone is shot using an HK

    1. Did you just comment on a 9 year old post just to write something so obviously stupid?

      Apparently! Well done, sir. Golf clap.

      1. Hey now, this column is still the gold standard for gun-related snark and hilarity! In fact, I think you should repost it and link it on every gun blog. ????

    2. You should always decline to make a profit because of the risk of lawyers. If you plan to not make a profit.

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