Monster Hunter Nation

Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts

I’m seeing this narrative pop up that Sad Puppies is calling for a boycott of Tor, but that is simply not true. Speaking as the guy who started the Sad Puppies campaign, I’m not calling for a boycott of anything. I’m not asking anyone to do anything. As far as I’m concerned this mess is between Tor and its customers. I’ve said very little about it so far, but I’ve been clear about that much.

The Sad Puppies Campaign is NOT calling for any boycotts.

But as we’ve seen time and time again, what I actually say doesn’t matter. It is just whatever narrative they can get to stick. I’m seeing lots of people on Facebook who should know better saying this is Sad Puppies declaring war on Tor. Nope. I’ll explain what it is.

Back in April when some high ranking Tor employees were making some pretty outlandish accusations, I put up a blog post asking for SP supporters not to blame Tor.

http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/04/11/last-sp-post-for-the-week-to-my-people-dont-yell-tor/ I respect Tom Doherty. I’m friends with a bunch of Tor authors. I explained how the company was a big outfit with a lot of employees. I told my supporters don’t blame them.
And in the intervening months several Tor employees had to go and make that really hard. A few Tor employees were extremely vocal with some very asinine criticisms, and still, I kept telling my supporters not to blame the whole company.

For this recent dust up, this is how I see it. Tor editor Irene Gallo posted some obviously false, slanderous nonsense, and she did it in a post representing her company’s products. It went viral.

Personally, I am used to being lied about. I volunteered for this. Lots of industry people have been insulting us, or regurgitating lies without question, since this started. It’s been a pattern for years. One of the goals of my original campaign was to expose the political bias that existed in this system, so this particular post didn’t come as a shock.

Only this time Gallo screwed up and tarred not just me or other SP leaders, but she slandered the fans who agreed with us and some unaffiliated authors (some of whom write for Tor!) with some pretty vile stuff.

For many people that was the straw that broke the camel’s back. They got angry. It turns out regular folks don’t like to give money to people who call them Nazis. They started contacting Tor and its parent company, Macmillan. Tom Doherty himself issued a statement that I personally liked. I’m glad he did that. I’ve been told that Tor has implemented a new social media policy, so that when its employees are calling its customers names, they need to make it clear they are speaking for themselves and not their employer. That is pretty standard in the rest of the corporate world.

Then Gallo issued a half assed, ‘I’m sorry you got upset when I called you all racist nazis’, pseudo apology. No retraction. Many people didn’t think that was good enough, so they continued to send emails to Tor. When it leaked that some Tor staff were dismissing all those emails as bots, and not real human fans, that riled them up.

The person who set the Friday deadline for a real apology is author Peter Grant. Let me tell you about Peter. He’s not one of the Sad Puppies organizers and wasn’t involved in the campaign, but I’ve known him for about fifteen years.

Do you know why Peter Grant took great personal affront to being labeled an unrepentantly racist, neo-nazi? That is because he literally fought and bled against neo-nazi terrorists in a blood soaked African civil war so brutal that most pampered Americans can’t even wrap their brains around it. He had many friends murdered, black and white both. He saw real terrorism. He still suffers from the physical injuries and nightmares. So he takes his culture war accusations very seriously.

Those accustomed to knee jerk bitching and bloviating about every possible outrage and trigger warning, quickly dismissed Peter’s taking umbrage against Gallo’s comments with their usual racist/sexist/homophobe accusations. Because obviously, anyone who disagrees with them is guilty of some ist or ism, evidence be damned. Their idea of social justice is forming Twitter mobs. Peter Grant got blown up protesting Apartheid.

After being a soldier, Peter hung up his guns and became a man of God. SJWs are saying that he’s a homophobe because he agreed with Sad Puppies, while in real life he volunteered at a colony for homosexuals who had been forsaken by African society, dying of AIDS. When I first met him, Peter was a prison chaplain, trying to help the fallen and broken, and victims of things you can’t even imagine. Basically, he’s an honorable man who puts his money where his mouth is, and now he’s offended.

Peter asked for a retraction from the Tor editor who flippantly dismissed thousands of fans as unrepentant racist neo-nazis. I don’t believe he’s calling for anything beyond that.

Again, this is between Tor and its readers who feel insulted, not the Sad Puppies campaign or the people who ran it. Yes, those Venn diagrams overlap, but sorry, you can’t blame this one on me. Many normal fans agreed with what Sad Puppies was trying to do, and shockingly enough, they eventually got sick and tired of employees of one of their favorite publishing houses calling them names. I’m not calling for anything, though I can certainly understand why some people are.

If any individual who felt insulted is satisfied with Tom Doherty’s statement saying that his employees don’t speak for his company, good for you. If any individual is unsatisfied and demands further action, that’s also up to you. I’m not going to tell anybody what to think.

For the other side who are saying that Gallo is the real victim here, and she was only speaking truth to power… Yeah, you guys run with that. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together can see she her comments were nonsense. The only thing she is a victim of is arrogance.

To the SJWs saying Tom Doherty is a hateful misogynist because he isn’t letting his employees libel people on the clock anymore? Double down. There might be some people left out there who haven’t realized I was right about you yet.

To the Tor authors I’m seeing post about this, the Sad Puppies campaign is not calling for a boycott. If you are upset why people are angry take it up with your art director about why she’s insulting your customers.

To the Sad Puppies supporters, do what you think is right. All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as civil as possible in your disagreements. Stick with the facts. We’ve got the moral high ground, and the great moderate middle of this debate has seen we’ve been telling the truth all along.

One day left on the Champions of Aetaltis Kickstarter. I've got a story in here.
Somebody sent me a Sad Puppies holster
Dan Kauffman
Guest

When I realised that my online presense, on Facebook and my Blog had become more and more involved in politics I did not start saying that my opionions were strictly my own and not my employers I REMOVED mention of my employer from my Facebook Account. But if your online identity is determined by your employer and people go to your site because of that rather than what you post it would create a dilemma

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
Scalzi weighed into the boycott yesterday. Turns out he’s in favor of it. 😉 “John Scalzi ‏@scalzi · Jun 17 @mforbeck I don’t mind utter shitlords not purchasing my books. @ChuckWendig @wes_chu @cstross @eilatan” and “John Scalzi ‏@scalzi · 7h7 hours ago Also, if someone would boycott me because they’re following the lead of some racist shitball, I’m fine with that. Don’t need those sales.” You have to realize that while the other side pretends to see the difference between Sad and Rabid Puppies, we are still one and the same in their minds. To them, Sads are just the… Read more »
Nathan
Guest

The helpful person in me thinks Scalzi needs to take lessons on professionalism on social media from Brandon Sanderson. The rat bastard hopes Instapundit joins in a prospective boycott.

Keith Glass
Guest

I don’t buy Scalzi books because I am a, as Scalzi puts it, a “shitlord”.

I don’t buy them because they’ve bored me for the last 8+ years. .

Linoge
Guest

Seriously. The man couldn’t come up with an original idea if he was paid to.

And he is.

I mean, the books are relatively well-written, but “formulaic” is being… generous.

It certainly doesn’t help that he appears to be a raging asshole to boot.

Dan Kauffman
Guest

Until I stumbled into this Hugo flab I had never heard of him

Kaz Redclaw
Guest

Wow. Stay classy there, Scalzi. Oddly enough, I’ve read and enjoyed Scalzi books before. His book Redshirts was the first novel in a decade that I had read and enjoyed that eventually won a Hugo award.

I really had no intention to boycott Tor at all. Tor and Baen have always been the staples of my bookshelf, and I commend Tor for their DRM free policy. I’ll have to verify that, but if those are real twitter quotes from Scalzi, I might just not buy any more of his books. That’s just a bit churlish there, along with being uninformed.

Nathan
Guest

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. If you truly enjoy Scalzi, don’t step foot into his twitter feed.

Synova
Guest

I second this. I realized quite a few years ago that I’d like his books way more if I pretended his blog didn’t exist.

Robin Munn
Guest
It’s too late for me: a couple years ago, I read his article where he wrote in the persona of a rapist saying, “Thanks, anti-abortionists: now when I rape a woman, I get to victimize her twice instead of once!” (Can’t remember the article’s title right now, but that was the gist of it.) That one made me so incandescently furious that I basically couldn’t stand to pick up his books now. People might recommend Old Man’s War all they want, and all I’ll be able to think of is what I think of the author as a human being,… Read more »
Mike M.
Guest

I saw his blog – stopped buying his stuff, and moved to the bottom of my ‘buy’ list anything that he recommends. But like he says, he doesn’t need the sales. Shrug – he can hardly get peevish if readers do what he suggests, amirite?

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

Even Scalzi can probably recommend a good book once in a while. Hell, even Liz Bourke likes David Weber. Mind you, I’ve learned to check out the books she hates. She DESPISED Michael J Sullivan’s Riyria series, but I liked them. I now own them all. Thanks, Liz Bourke! 😀

James May
Guest
Here’s what we’re up against: “Cat on June 19, 2015 at 5:57 am said: “… the Puppy tendency to rage against injustices that don’t exist.” * “… a yearly smattering of casting ballots against the people who had committed the foul crime of being women and minorities.” – John Seavey That’s what bullshit looks like, a quote from a guy’s blog who left a moronic comment at Grant’s. * Being racially review censored is in fact an injustice. These people either ignore plain facts in evidence or make them up out of their heads. There is no flood of quotes… Read more »
Feh
Guest

I didn’t boycott Scalzi until I started reading his blog. In short, I only bought one of his books. Why give money to someone who hates me?

James May
Guest

He doesn’t hate us. But he does front for an ideology which does hate us. Scalzi is too stupid to figure out he’s ideologically gone translesbianblack in perfect agreement with the movement’s black gay icon Audre Lorde who writes about the “gap of male ignorance” and writes white gay feminists are “tools of the patriarchy.”

TheNybbler
Guest

Vox and the Rabid Puppies are excuses. If he weren’t involved they’d pick or invent some other excuse. Kinda funny that Vox runs the Rabid Puppies but the SJWs are the ones frothing at the mouth, though.

Synova
Guest

I can happily go on not buying either of those guys and still purchase the books from the Tor authors I’ve been waiting for for a very long time.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

I haven’t bought any of Scalzi’s books in years, so it sounds like we’re all cool, then. He went from ripping off Heinlein, to ripping off Piper, to ripping off freakin’ Star Trek. He must be down to Eando Binder and Perry Rhodan by now.

I am still trying to figure out why a tubby middle-aged straight white dude with a multimillion dollar book contract gets to “speak” for the poor, women, gays, and “writers of color”. Nice racket, if you can get it.

Nighthawk
Guest

I’ve been trying to figure that same thing out since at least the 90’s.

Don Nutting
Guest

Scalzi better not mess with Perry Rhodan. Redshirts was the first, last, and only book of his that I’ll ever buy. You’d think for a million bucks he could come up with something original. He took decades of good Star Trek and shit on it. His title is probably the reason I bought it. I’ve learned that if it is a Tor title it might be best if you got a recommendation from a friend you trust first.

Scott Malcomson
Guest

Even were Vox utterly unassociated with Puppies, another excuse would be found, and if not found then invented (as witness blaming GamerGate for the Pups’ sweep of the noms).

Defamation is not an obstacle to the True Believers of any given faith, and it is certainly an article of faith that the Puppies are — as Gallo’s defenders continue to insist — racist, sexist and/or homophobic.

SJW75126
Guest
John swings a big stick. He always makes fun of those boycotting him. He has whole articles on the subject. Says Peter: “There are those who doubt that a boycott can achieve anything. I can only reply that ‘doing the right thing’ is important in itself. It’s a matter of honor – and although any mention of honor may be greeted with scorn and derision in these ‘modern’ times, I was raised to value the concept and live by it. I still do.” Good for Peter. Glad it makes him happy. The net effect of Peter’s boycott will be negligible… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
I tend to agree that the boycott won’t accomplish much. But you never know. You can tell the Torlings aren’t that confident. Feder started yesterday off with a lie on twitter, there’s a screenshot of it on Bayou Renaissance Man. Then the ‘bots started. Having to use bots on twitter to make folks believe that there’s a stampede to buy Tor books? Really? Screen shots on that over at Vox Popoli. Lots of confidence in Torland. Having to start with a lie, and use bots to convince people lots of books are being bought. I agree on one other thing.… Read more »
David MacKinnon
Guest

I can only speak for myself. I’m done with Tor. I might be as insignificant as a single drop of water to all the self appointed powers that be, however; what are oceans but many drops of water?

Wild Ape
Guest
It looks like to me you are attempting to lower the morale by throwing around some facts about how big Macmillan is. Let me give something else for you to think about Sparky. Giants with all those offices in 41 countries have an overhead. With Greece wobbly it looks pretty bad over for the EU. There is going to be a lot of cost going into keeping it afloat and that means more in the EU will be worried about soaring food costs that are already pretty high. Here in the States our economy is stagnate and the average family… Read more »
Wild Ape
Guest
That is a hell of a lot of overhead there SJW. Printing a lot of books to send to the brick and mortar shops is expensive. With Borders gone and Barnes and Noble shaky that isn’t going to go away anytime soon. MacMillan hasn’t done much to friend Amazon which has gobbled up almost a fifth of the market. Your message seems to be designed to deflate morale here. I think with the EU on shaky legs and with the US economy stagnate with the average family income dropping $2K on average and working hours reduced due to Obamacare I… Read more »
Jordan S. Bassior
Guest

Is Tor not noticing that Scalzi is trying to egg the boycott on? Does this not make them worry that perhaps Scalzi is not their friend? Or, at least, not their competent friend?

D. Jason Fleming
Guest

I’m not calling for a boycott.

It’s just that I refuse to give more money to a company that employs large numbers of people who hate me for being things which I am not. Gallo is a 45-year-old toddler who thinks her feelings are the beginning and the end of all things. To apologize for being wrong is impossible for her. But until she does, I’ll find other ways to get money to Sanderson, Brust, and the few other authors Tor publishes that I actually like any more.

Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        Exactly, Jason.  If Tor/Macmillan wishes to employ the Nielsen-Haydens, Moshe Feder, and Irene Gallo, they may do so.  But I won’t buy books from any company employing them.  I’d dishonor myself, buying from a company that lets its employees call me “unrepentantly racist, sexist and homophobic,” claims I wish for “the end of social justice in science fiction and fantasy,” (whatever that means), and dubs the books and stories I nominate for Hugos “a slate of bad-to-reprehensible works.”

Jim Butcher
Guest

(Jamison_ON) In print it’s libel. (Jamison_OFF)

Josh
Guest

Thanks for staying above the fray on all the recent events. I suspect your politics do not exactly match mine but rather than disowning or insulting your readers you have played it pretty cool. Love your books BTW.

G.K. Masterson
Guest
I’m one of those authors/fans who’s decided not to purchase anymore Tor books until they issue an actual apology. My paternal grandfather fought in WWII and was part of the Normandy invasion — he was at Omaha Beach (third wave in the afternoon) and was in the Big Red One army group who liberated Paris (I think) and made the push to Berlin where they helped liberate it along with the Soviet Army. I’m also the grand-daughter of two women who started businesses in an era when women were supposed to stay in the home. My maternal grandmother actually divorced… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest
My father grew up with the stories of his family suffering under the Japanese in World War II. He recounted how the Japanese soldiers, seeing a photo of a relative with a military-like uniform, grabbed that relative’s infant son from his mother, tossed the baby up into the air, and impaled him on their bayonet, to punish the father for ‘being in the military.’ The relative wasn’t home, but was working as a security guard. That relative joined the guerrilas immediately afterward, his wife half-insane with grief. My paternal grandfather fought with the Americans. I’m frankly of the opinion that… Read more »
Jbouler
Guest

Buying a beloved author’s book by a hated publisher from a used book store has to be the best revenge possible. Stay strong and patronize your local library.

Nathan
Guest

I’m starting to be a fan of buying from the UK publishers if possible, especially when the publisher isn’t a subsidiary of the despised publisher.

Shadowdancer
Guest
I wish there was a way to get the money to the author himself / herself! I just looked at Book Depository and Wells’ The Devil’s Only Friend (?) is only available via TOR. =( Booo~ – I’ll have to see if it’ll come out via his other publisher. Joanne Bertin’s other Dragonlord books seems to also be published through Earthlight, but Bard’s Oath is not available from them. But I have a 5% off coupon I gotta use up in a couple of days and there’s a nice bunch of books on BD’s bargain books pile, including stories about… Read more »
Anti-hate
Guest

I wish there was a way to get the money to the author himself / herself!

A lot of authors have tip jars on their websites. If you buy their book used, and then leave them a tip on their website that is worth about what Tor would have paid them for the book (50 cents perhaps?), then the author gets paid while Tor doesn’t.

James May
Guest

Does anyone know about women air-races in the ’30s? I just assumed people did. These modern gender feminists seem to assume otherwise. In complaining about women SFF authors being erased, they’ve done more to erase their existence in order to further their propaganda than anyone.

http://www.ninety-nines.org/women_in_air_racing.htm

Dr. Mauser
Guest

Look up Bessie Coleman.

Steve Sundeen
Guest
I am self-employed, so I am aware that my online comments have an influence on my business. I don’t self-censor, but I do try and act with some level of professionalism and civility. That being said, I was greatly insulted by Ms. Gallo’s comments and somewhat surprised that her company didn’t have some kind of social media policy. The last company I worked for had one going back to 2007 and they weren’t even a company with a significant public presence. I still enjoy authors that are the complete political opposite of me. I don’t require agreement with my views… Read more »
Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        Macmillan has a social media policy, and Gallo, Feder and the Nielsen-Haydens seem to have violated it.  For whatever reason, they have chosen not to enforce it.

Cedar Sanderson
Guest

I have blogged extensively on this, in part because Peter Grant, who I am honored to call a friend, asked me to weigh in as a businesswoman. I have not been calling for a boycott or even a dismissal of Irene Gallo. It is simply a horrible example of unprofessional behavior, and an opportunity for Tor to show that they do respect their customers and vendors even though there is a lot of evidence that certain personnel do not.

James May
Guest

I don’t care about anyone’s politics. I care about people institutionalizing the idea I’m a privileged racist homophobic misogynist for waking up in the morning and calling that “politics.” Even stupider is saying that’s somehow central to a literature about Ringworlds, Hobbits and Dying Earths. It’s an insane obsession by people who’ve signed onto an ideology that is sociopathic and one of pathological lies.

Beth
Guest

I will continue to buy every Brandon Sanderson book that comes out. I really don’t give a crap.

John Stockley
Guest

I’ve been boycotting Tor books for years. It just wasn’t official until now.

Francis Turner
Guest

What happens to Tor is of sublime indifference to me. I think there’s only a couple of Tor authors I care about and one of them is KJA – he who was so pleasantly insulted by Gallo.

I think the last non KJA book I bought from Tor was either Redshirts (which I regretted) or one of Weber’s Safehold books – a series I realize I’ve also lost interest in because I bought the same book twice and only realized I’d read it before about 3/4s of the way through.

David MacKinnon
Guest
I face a quandary. I refuse to send any of my hard earned money to anyone that at best considers me a “Wrong fan” and at worst a Racist/Homophobic/whatever is the worst IST of the day. I haven’t looked at Tor specifically either for or to ignore. But, this I have to draw a line at. David Weber is one of my all time favorite authors, yet I sadly discovered his Safehold series is published by Tor. Sorry Mr. Weber. but with the greatest respect to you and your works to date, I will not be purchasing the next book.… Read more »
Alex
Guest

Once you finish with Butcher’s Dresden books, go try Codex Alera. And there’s a new steampunk book (Cinder Spires) coming out this fall.

Larry’s next book is Son of the Black Sword. The eARC (electronic advance reader copy – unedited) is available from Baen; the official version should be out in late October.

Andrew
Guest

I’m going through Codex Alera right now. I found it because people kept saying how awesome Butcher was, but I’m nonplussed by most modern/urban fantasy. The entertainment value was such that I’m likely to try the Dresden books.

Ondrej Vitek
Guest

Because how can you go wrong with book about planet travelling Romans doing battle against alien invasion with Pokemon?
Yeah. He is so good he can craft great entertainment from the most outlandish ideas.

ravenshrike
Guest

Less planet travelling, more dimensional side slip.

Richard McEnroe
Guest

David, yeah, I discovered the Freehold books late, too, principally because, “Hey, Tor.” As I said, there ARE used copies, you know.

David MacKinnon
Guest

Odd.
I got Freehold ( Mike W, yeah?) from the Baen free libray, and bought the rest of that series from the Baen catalog. Flint may be a (literal) card carrying Trotsky-ite, but that crack dealer business model of “The first taste is free” sure gladdens a Capitalist’s heart.

Alex- You know I bought “Son of ” E-arc the day it hit Baen. 🙂

Andrew- Yeah, strongly think I’ll be checking those Codex Alera books out for even more Summer Knights (ba-dump ba) goooooood reading.

David MacKinnon
Guest

DOH!
I think you were talking Safehold (D. Weber) vs. Freehold (M. Z. Wiliamson) there. I can’t claim to be a Good Fan, having state sponsored/regulated/approved Good fun. I am the platonic form of “Wrong Fan, having Wrong Fun”. Because, MERICA! (SJW head explosions are merely an unintentional side effect, I assure you.)

Richard McEnroe
Guest

yeh, I keep doing that.

Trimegistus
Guest

Are you the Richard McEnroe who wrote _The Shattered Stars_ and _Skinner_?

Richard McEnroe
Guest

Back in the day,yeah. Got the rights back. They’re gonna be rewritten and republished, by me.

Dan Kauffman
Guest

You mean you were waiting to read Hell’s Foundations Quiver until it was published? I have been reading the driblets at jiltanith LOL besides I don’t believe in collective guilt

Richard McEnroe
Guest

Collective, no. Institutional,yes.

David MacKinnon
Guest

In theory I agree with you. However; out of the 30+ bucks I’d pay for that next book a chunk (no idea how much) goes to the publishing house, which in turn goes to pay that horrid PC harpy to continue to call me a low brow “Bad Think” Nazi.

So, no purchase for me, which I believe to speak louder than “no award”.

T.L. Knighton
Guest

Peter Grant is a good man. He has a good heart. He probably doesn’t hold a grudge.

That’s what he has the rest of us for.

OK, not really, but I really wanted to use that line. 😀

Wes S.
Guest
There’s a lot of things I’ll tolerate out of an author, as long as he or she tells a good story. If they wear their politics or other attitudes on their sleeves, fine. If they want to argue about it with me, we’re still OK. But when you treat me with open contempt because I disagree with you, well then, go f**k yourselves with a chainsaw. That’s the point I’ve reached with certain authors such as Stephen King and John Scalzi, and now I’m getting there with Tor as a publisher because of the outrageous things so many of its… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

If Vox were one of their a-holes, they’d defend him to their last breath. Guaranteed.

James May
Guest

Using their own definition they already do. About 50-100 of them.

Rob O
Guest

I gave up on Scalzi circa 5-6 months ago when the Brianna Wu dustup reached peak weird . Gave my copies of his novels to a friend who enjoys him, and emailed him . Got a flip and trivial answer back which was nice as a confirmation that he’s a smug SOB willing to due exactly what he wants to accuse other of: “Otherizing” them/us at the drop of a hat.
No skin off my back , one less self righteous A** that I have to deal with or financially support.

Reziac
Guest

Speaking of Wu, this was interesting:
http://gamergate.community/t/brianna-wu-threatening-lawsuits-may-be-linked-to-emerging-history-as-john-flynt/656
Go down to the bit about the restraining order.

Jordan S. Bassior
Guest

So, Brianna Wu’s not just obnoxious, but seriously insane?

Shadowdancer
Guest

Pretty much. Oh and if you want an example of ‘exponentially worse’, look up the investigations into Sarah Butts srhbutts.

Richard McEnroe
Guest
Some of the puling class over at the anti-puppies are now calling for a counter-boycott of Baen Books. Putting aside the stupidity of not recognizing that NO employee of Baen has been in any fashion like the Reprehensible Ms. Gallo, if they’re dumb enough to try it they’ll run into what the Chick-Fil-A protesters encountered: you can’t successfully boycott a business you never patronized to begin with. A position, ironically, that I’ve found myself in with regard to Tor Books, as I wrote to Tom Doherty, a man I worked for back when he ran Ace. The output of his… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

A Baen boycott? I guess I’ll have to go buy some *more* Baen Books . . . 😀

craig(2)
Guest

There are good authors at Tor. I have probably 300 Tor books or so, maybe more. There are a couple of Tor authors where I own 90+% of what they’ve had published in book form. So stepping away from Tor isn’t easy. But it won’t save me as much money as it should, because Tor isn’t developing enough authors that write things I want to read.

And I’ll probably just spend it on Del Rey, and Orbit, and Baen, and indy.

Dan Kauffman
Guest

I am trying to picture a Progressive boycott of Baen it would be like a boycott of McDonalds by PETA Vegans

James May
Guest

I loved Ace so much I couldn’t have imagined what it would’ve taken for me to boycott them. Now I can. Having feminists come in and kick out Frank Frazetta and Burroughs cuz they (and I) were racist sexists would’ve done the job.

TWS
Guest

I’m not boycotting Tor. I’m just not doing business with them until Irene Gallo resigns. If she were a mailroom clerk or a janitor it would still be reprehensible (and she’d probably already be fired) but she is an associate publisher and creative director a face of the company. Obviously, Tor is okay with that level of customer treatment and creative support. Why give them another dime?

Angus Trim
Guest
You know, Larry, I’m thinkin’ I need to take minor issue with what you said. I’ve watched this evolve since early last year, and I think its safe to say that Sad Puppies has evolved. Its not just about Larry anymore. Yes, you started it. But its become a movement, a bit of a rebellion against those that want to tell readers what to read, and writers what to write. A lot of people today consider themselves “Sad Puppies”, that you haven’t necessarily annoited as an honest to God Sad Puppy. Your site has been fairly quiet. But the battle… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
“But its become a movement, a bit of a rebellion against those that want to tell readers what to read, and writers what to write.” What’s it about? I don’t think that’s what it is about. The market is pretty plain about what readers want to read and what writer’s will get compensated for writing, yes? I thought this was about one particular award that was in large part the award of a club. They are a subset of SF/F readers and they pay $60 per year to join the club. And those that attend the convention had most of… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest

What do you think?

SJW75126
Guest
I think you have the effect in proportion to your numbers – which is the effect you should have. With the Hugos your effect can be greater than other more broad based awards. The Hugos is a really small club. I live at Goodreads. That’s where I first found MHI. For me the most prestigious award would be the Goodreads’ Choice award. Jim Butcher is a great author and is on the puppies slate. He is 3rd in the fantasy category for the Goodread’s Choice Awards. I don’t think a puppy campaign would move him up at all and certainly… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
Thank you. That gave me an idea where you want to drive this. The Hugos are pretty small, I agree. And the blogs that most of the people involved read and comment are pretty small too. But this kerfuffle has hit the mainstream news, and I think our disagreement is going to influence things all out of proportion of our numbers. In this case I’m talking about both Puppies and Asps {Anti-Sad Puppies}. I think I picked up on File 770 that already the folks that have paid their $40 to vote have doubled from last year. A lot of… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
Thanks for the input. I found and read the 770 discussion which is referenced in the thread below. And thanks for telling me what ASP is. I guess everyone has a SF/F niche favorite and mine has been time travel, dystopian and recently urban fantasy. Dystopian and Urban Fantasy have exploded so I am not seeing a shortage of material. Sure I loved Tolkien but that is really difficult to reproduce. And I liked the Martian which is straight up rocket ship sci fi. But that is not my niches. Given that the market is putting lots of stuff out… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
Oh, dystopian fiction and Urban Fantasy. For the moment I’m going to set aside the dystopian fiction. I was first introduced to Urban Fantasy before it was called that. Fred Saberhagen wrote an interesting take on Count Dracula, and made it into an interesting series. Then there’s the Harry Dresden stuff. That’s really affected everything since it came out. Patricia Briggs has an interesting take on things with both the Mercy Thompson series and the “Alpha and Omega” series. I think of the MHI series as Urban Fantasy too. There are several others I’ve read but haven’t hit the same… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

Larry is a former accountant, so that had lots to do with it. =D And when I gifted my brother with the book, he had a boss who was just as insufferable as the one in the book, so he told me he deeply appreciated that I gave him the book to enjoy.

Nighthawk
Guest

Every person I have read that opening paragraph of MHI has them hooked immediately 🙂 I got my dad started on it a couple weeks ago, and he was an accountant before his retirement.

I’ve read some urban fantasy like dark suns daughter and looking forward to eventually starting the dresden books.

For dystopian, if you haven’t read Vampire Earth from E.E. Knight, check it out. There are a lot of novels if you enjoy it.

Andrew
Guest

The only time I’d cut myself off from the opportunity to purchase something is if I was convinced the money would be used to harm me.

Frank Probst
Guest

I honestly don’t understand why it’s so hard for someone to say, “I was wrong. I’m sorry.”

Andrew
Guest

Depends on the personal investment. Suggest a bad new restaurant to a friend and it’s easy. Define your worldview in terms of opposing the vile filthy racist evil x-phobes? You have to disrupt quite a bit of your “self” to apologize for it, and that is hard.

Don Nutting
Guest

I think I understand Correia’s comment better now. Once he made it personal it became about him. It gave them something to focus on and to point and screech their rage at. I think Andrew you nailed the problem. Now that they are invested in their mob mentality it is harder and harder for them to jump ship. Look at how they rage at James Doherty.

Nighthawk
Guest

This is a good point. It seems they are marinated in group think. So when someone like Larry shows up as an individual, it’s an easy target for the group.

They also like projecting, so I guess that kind of explains how they like to tar and feather everyone in the “broad brush”.

Maybe they are incapable of comprehending people as individuals, such as Larry, Brad, etc. That would by why when VD says something, they think everyone else has to defend it.

snelson134
Guest

It’s in their Bible, Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

When your strategy and tactics are based on cruelty, nothing we’ve seen is a surprise. All Larry and Vox have done is make the personalization easier, but if it hadn’t been them. it would have been something else.

Frank Probst
Guest

I have to say that I really liked Tom Doherty’s letter. He distanced himself from Gallo, which is PR 101, but he went on to provide one of the most succinct summaries of the Sad Puppies/Hugo situation. It isn’t perfect, but if you’re looking for a good place to start, start there.

Synova
Guest

I liked it as well. And I don’t think it was “taking sides” and favoring Sad Puppies at all. He merely said that certain things were not true and that Tor publishes everyone and that Gallo’s words did not represent the company. It was an incredibly bland corporate statement and about what anyone would expect.

Francis Turner
Guest
I liked Tom D’s statement too. It inspired me to email this to him as part of the Peter Grant email campaign: Dear Mr Doherty, I was very glad to read your statement on Tor.com last week. It gives me hope that I will someday identify the Tor logo as a mark of quality in the same way that I find the Baen logo to be. Sadly my own recent experience right now is that the Tor logo is a sign that – except for certain, mostly bestselling, authors – I should skip the book in question and look for… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
Since I sorta started down the path, maybe I should finish it with some who I think are Heroes of the Rebellion. I have to start with James May and calbeck. I can no longer keep up with a fast moving, confrontational conversation. So I admire those that can. James May and calbeck were outnumbered vastly by the asps at Eric Flint’s recently, and held the swarms off. Greatswords flashing, heads, limbs and blood flying at every stroke. They did well. R. K. Modena. She had an absolutely classic blowup on Brad’s site and let all of the asps there… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

Thank you. And it was worth it all. Still is. Good people here. How can I not stand with them, join them?

James May
Guest
Hahahaha. Calbeck was great. He used simple common sense and they acted like they were stung by bees. This isn’t really working out for SJWs. Calling us “shitlords,” “racists” and pointing out we’re nuts hasn’t and won’t work. They got no quotes. Anita Sarkeesian is now being routinely dismantled in public and become a laughing stock. Deleting and banning has proved to be their worse enemy; they have no debating skills. My favorite one lately is where they call us racists for saying award nominees are affirmative action and then us showing 40 quotes where they call for affirmative action.… Read more »
Richard Brandt
Guest

Glyer did no such thing, more or less. No, let me rephrase that: Glyer did no such thing.

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

Are you as much of a white supremacist who supports the burning of minority neighborhoods as is Glyer?

James May
Guest

What did Jonathan Ross do?

Angus Trim
Guest

Well, Sarah seems to think he did. It looks like he did to me too. You’re mileage might vary, but I suspect you have a reading comprehension problem.

Attacking a woman without provocation makes him a sexist misogynist doesn’t it?

James May
Guest

Just disagreeing with a woman is sexism. See: Nick Mamatas on Fran Wilde and Brad.

Shadowdancer
Guest
Oh you mean like Glyer doesn’t insinuate that we’re all basket cases either? Or cherry picks things in a way that appeals to his reader base for more easy dismissal? Please. I knew he would quote only the part where I was already angry in my essay and made it easier for him by caps-locking certain parts. And yep, there was that ‘Oh, caps lock. Nothing worth reading there by RK Modena, now or ever.’ Didn’t disappoint at all. If you ASPs were really going to be fair, you’d be reading more than the quoted bits, but we don’t expect… Read more »
James May
Guest

Whether by design or ignorance, Glyer has effectively memory-holed the feminist ideology behind all this. Without that, it makes us look like baboons who invaded Okinawa in 1945 for a lark.

SJW75126
Guest

What are ASPs?

James May
Guest

Cleopatra’s bracelets, also known as anti-sad puppies.

Beolach
Guest

@SJW75126: Anti-Sad Puppies. Personally I prefer the term puppy-kickers.

Brett Peterson
Guest
Tor still produces great work – I am reviewing work by both Mary Robinette Kowal and John C Wright this week, and enjoyed all of it very thoroughly. But as an organization, I don’t feel I can trust them to give me a fair chance – or professional treatment – as an author. Unfortunately, the story I’m writing would probably fit the lineup at Tor better than elsewhere; it’s a hard-science-steampunk “Les Miserables” paired with “20,000 Leagues Under the Sea” and magic. I’m glad to see in all of your comments that I have other options: Orbit, Del Ray, independent… Read more »
Austin
Guest

Hey Larry, I had a long response, but apparently the site ate it. And it’s not the first time. Do you know if there’s something going on there? This post is partly to tell if it’s intermittent or consistent.

Robin Munn
Guest
I don’t know if this is a related problem, but I keep seeing “Error establishing a database connection” when I try to load Larry’s blog. Hitting refresh two or three times eventually gets through. Could be that the site is getting a lot more traffic than normal, and the database connection pool is getting maxed out. If your response happened to land in a moment when no database connections were available, then that might have gotten your comment lost. For safety, I’m copying and pasting this comment into Notepad (well, actually into GEdit since I use Linux) before hitting the… Read more »
JackWylder
Guest

The increased traffic over the last couple of days has uncovered some serious problems with our new host provider. I’ve implemented something that I *hope* will help, but it will take 24-72hrs to go into effect. In the meantime, I’d suggest following Robin’s advice and hit refresh as necessary. I apologize for the inconvenience! (FWIW, it annoys and affects me too- possibly more so…)

Shadowdancer
Guest

Would it be possible to also restore comment permalinks? It’s useful in threads where the comments get into the triple-digits… or more.

Shadowdancer
Guest

It’s not just here that it seems to be happening. I strongly suggest to everyone that longer comments be copied to Notepad or similar programs (I use Pluma myself, Robin =D ) before hitting post, because it’d be a shame to lose all that effort.

James May
Guest

Could you please take out the “strongly”? I felt triggered for a minute there. – signed, Admiral Halsey

jerry the geek
Guest
Jerry the Geek here, and i don’t do WordPress. So if this doesn’t make the cut it must not be very important. I’ve been reading SF for 60 years and I have more books than a stray dog has fleas. I don’t buy them because it’s a good idea, I buy them because if it’s worth reading once it’s worth reading again. My interest in this little pissing contest is tangential at best. I’m going to buy the books and save them and read them no matter what happens. I’ve tried to ignore the hair- pulling contest you girls are… Read more »
Nathan
Guest

You’re missing the point. This one’s not an author fight, it’s one taken up by fans like me, who are tired of being told what they can and cannot read and who are maligned by authors, Twitterati, and publishers. And I’m finding that I have far better uses for my money than to give it to an organization that apparently doesn’t want my business.

David MacKinnon
Guest

Skimmed until offended….
Concerned that “Your doing it wrong”…

Its almost like I’ve seen this check list before.

Tom
Guest

Ummm, Correia’s under contract for sixteen books. Trust me, he’s writing.

Nighthawk
Guest

In your brilliance you have failed to realize Larry is not published by Tor. You’ve also missed the title where he indicates he is not calling for a boycott of Tor. Go make up something new to get irritated about.

Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        I will not pay money to a business whose employees insult me and lie about me, unless there’s the equivalent of a gun against my head.  As long as the Nielsen-Haydens, Feder, and Gallo work for MacMillan, I won’t purchase any products Macmillan turns out.  End of discussion.

Wild Ape
Guest
Your intent seems to create division between author and fan. I don’t see why Larry has to “straighten my shit” and although I’m a fan of his, he ain’t my mamma. You’ve been reading books for 60 years over and over and perhaps you should take the time to work on your reading comprehension. Correia is encouraging people not to boycott if you hadn’t bothered to reread his post and have it registered to your gray matter (not your hair—your Geritol pickled brain I mean). I sure wish I had your reading problem. It would be fun to read the… Read more »
trackback

[…] “Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts” – June 18 […]

John R. Ellis
Guest
One would think they had more important things to worry about this week. But who am I kidding? I just saw a post on Facebook arguing that “Jurassic World’s” success at the worldwide box office proves that this is what “The Puppies” will do to mass market SF…make it really dumb and repetitive. (Because so many of the authors nominated worked on that fi-…oh.) Anyway, I haven’t seen anyone posting anything about an organized boycott. Just an individual here and there deciding for themselves to abstain from purchasing future books and hit the libraries and used bookstores instead. Which means… Read more »
Greg
Guest

“After being a soldier, Peter hung up his guns and became a man of God.”

And THAT was quite likely the “straw that broke the camel’s back” for the SJW crowd.

Christians are (in their twisted world) automatically guilty of every ist and ism they can throw accusations of.

New Class Traitor
Guest

I’ve had it with TORheit (meaning “foolishness” in German). Until the latest stunts I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. No longer. “The jar will dunk into the well until it cracks.” (Dutch proverb). Mine has cracked.

trackback

[…] Correia has categorically stated that the Sad Puppies are not calling for any boycotts. He also notes, as he invariably does, “All I’m asking is that whatever you do, try to be as […]

Don Nutting
Guest
I think the free market is a harsh mistress. You alienate your customers at your own peril, so I don’t think it is a wise practice. I’ve bought a lot of Tor books over the years. The brand name at one point carried a lot of weight with me because I associated it with good fiction. I felt offended by not one but many of the Tor editor’s comments. I’ve noticed that I’ve bought fewer and fewer Tor books in the recently and this conclusion came long before the present Hugo fiasco. They had just cut me from their market.… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

Irene Gallo seems to like to bite the hands that feed her, because by dragging in GamerGate into her litany of evil characteristics, she conveniently forgets that TOR also publishes H.A.L.O. novels. Based off of the H.A.L.O. video game series.

Jennifer
Guest

This kerflufle is highly annoying to some of us who care about the books and the stories and not the politics of the authors. Ok, so I’m a flaming liberal. I also love MHI and Grimnoir. I love Scalzi, Butcher, and oooooh, Connie Willis. The list of authors who’s books I love is huge, and now y’all are spending time arguing instead of writing books?

Synova
Guest

It does seem sort of silly, doesn’t it.

Don Nutting
Guest

I think because the medium through which we speak is a poor communicator. We say on the internet things we would not say in person. It is easy to separate societal controls when we get on a computer and become impersonal. Ray Bradbury warned us of this in the 50s. We are seeing it in play now.

James May
Guest

Are you being review censored cuz of your race or sex?

Don Nutting
Guest
I gave you a thumbs up on that post. I have liberal friends who are also big time Correia fans. I was introduced to MHI by one of those liberal friends. During a BBQ my friend Bob said, “I rarely laugh out loud when I read a book. Don, you gotta check this out. ” His wife Lynda was agreeing with him (she is a conservative) and wondered what had tickled him so much. Paul (a conservative gun nut) was passed the book first and was in hysterics after reading the first chapter and bought a copy on his Kindle… Read more »
Jennifer
Guest

Noticing differences are something hardwired in us, I believe. Even animals categorize (prey, food) the trick is in enjoying things we truly love together. Reading, movies, sports, worship. There are plenty of things humans bond over 🙂

James May
Guest
When Larry Niven’s Ringworld came out a long time ago there was apparently a flurry of letters from fans about how the mechanics of the structure could be made better and I believe he incorporated those suggestions in later editions of the book. There was nothing about how much “agency” women had or whether the “vampires” were thinly disguised “PoC.” There was also nothing about supermarket distribution centers and NASCAR. In the last several years we’ve not only seen the entry of people into SFF dragging weird race-gender obsessions into an inappropriate space, but who also act as drama queens… Read more »
Zsuzsa
Guest

A question about the context of Ms. Mixon’s comment: is she referring to the current controversy with Irene Gallo, or was this in reference to something else? I’m really, really hoping it’s the second one, because someone who honestly believes that calling Jim Butcher and John C. Wright “bad-to-reprehensible writers” is an attempt to “guard the health and well-being of our SFF community by standing up against hate speech” is simply not operating in the real universe.

James May
Guest

The first quote predates the second by some months and is her general view of SFF and affirmative action initiatives. The second is specifically referencing Gallo.

Richard Brandt
Guest

Gallo never said anyone was a “bad-to-reprehensible writer.”

JackWylder
Guest

https://www.facebook.com/igallo/posts/10152728739637461
Quote: “A noisy few but they’ve been able to gather some Gamergate folks around them and elect a slate of bad-to-reprehensible works on this year’s Hugo ballot.”
How is that NOT saying what it says?
edited to add: Oh wait- lemme guess. Just because their WORK is bad to reprehensible doesn’t mean they’re bad to reprehensible writers. Am I close?

Don Nutting
Guest
She said that the Sad and Rabid Puppies are: ” A noisy few but they’ve been able to gather some Gamergate folks around them and elect a slate of bad-to-reprehensible works on this year’s Hugo ballot” She never shows support or specifics. In her view we recommended them and that they appeared on the ballot so our choices are “bad-reprehensible”. I think when you argue her point is better to ask her or their supporters for specifics. They can’t show them because they probably don’t read them. And surely you aren’t contending James that the left should be silenced. Does… Read more »
James May
Guest
SJWs believe they should be silenced. I believe in live and let live. However when this specific group sets standards like threatening to boycott WorldCon over a TV personality who did exactly nothing, then SJWs will be held to the standards they themselves have set. SJWs threatened to boycott the SFWA in regards to an expulsion over a thing their own heroes have done many times: stipulate the moral and spiritual inferiority of an ethnic group. John Scalzi to this day boycotts any convention which does not live up to his own sexual harassment standards. Those standards mysteriously never include… Read more »
Nighthawk
Guest

Reality check on isle 4

Nighthawk
Guest

not sure how this comment ended up here, but was no intended for the above chain.

Synova
Guest
Honest to gawd… no one opposes “boosting the voices of the marginalized”. It’s when it seems only able to happen by punishing those deemed (by some magical accounting) to need to get their butt out of the pie eating contest because there is only one pie that people fuss. Calling people on their “privilege” theory bullsh*t isn’t the same as opposing efforts to make people feel welcome. In fact, going on about white privilege is the opposite of welcoming anyone. “Hey, come on in, the water’s warm! It’s also full of white men who hate you!” Yeah, that’ll work.
Don Nutting
Guest
I agree, Correia brings his own brand of true social justice in his fiction. What his detractors are saying is they want their message central in all writing. Here i s the link: http://www.tor.com/2015/06/09/special-edition-nyc-diversity-panels/ The idea that putting diversity into the characters and in world building isn’t a bad idea but what is scary is they later say:“While I appreciate the optimism, that’s a trap I don’t want to fall into,” she said. “You have to remember that it takes active participation from every single person to make sure we keep this momentum going. That’s why social media has become… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest
Frankly, as a Filipina, I would find highly insulting that my writing or any work be praised because of the color of my skin or my ethnic origins or the body parts I possess, or who I sleep with. It’s highly condescending, because it has overtones of ‘oh look, the monkey learned to pick up a paintbrush and whack it against a canvas!’ One does not use one’s privates to think or write with (and if anyone does… yikes) nor does one’s sexual preferences determine one’s capabilities or talents. It ultimately boils down to if I am truly considered an… Read more »
Don Nutting
Guest
You, I, and Michelle Malkin would agree on this. Those were amazing comments. I could only give you one thumbs up though. I think the liberal notion is that affirmative action builds self esteem. If their goal is aimed at building true self worth then they are going about it all wrong. True work, character, and merit are the foundations of true self esteem. Affirmative action destroys self esteem because success won’t mean a thing if it is handed out like a T-ball trophy. That which is fought for and earned is what is prized. It is their inept world… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

I like Malkin. She and I aren’t too different and I admire her for her ability to have kept this up for even longer than I could imagine.

Like her, I have gotten repeated death threats (aimed at my children and family), from a dedicated online stalker, who’s a regular over at File 770, using Alauda as his username there.

Don Nutting
Guest

I dig Malkin. She is such a class act. I’m sorry that you have to deal with all that. They are such cowards. I know all groups have a cook fringe but their philosophy seems to attract a great number of them and bigger than a normal population would. They have some whack jobs that are calling for voluntary human extinction for crying out loud.

Shadowdancer
Guest

My response to the voluntary human extinction movement is: “Well? I thought you were going to kill yourself. Show me the courage of your convictions! After all, if you wish for others to follow your path, you must first walk it!”

Don Nutting
Guest

Lol, I agree. Maybe they could feed a polar bear or something constructive when they do it.

Shadowdancer
Guest

Feed a sperm whale, maybe. Or any of the various toothed whales.

Don Nutting
Guest
Hey! I just now got around to reading your blog post about your dad and your stance on Sad Puppies. It was incredible. I’ve been slugging it out on Black Gate with some Austrian socialist about Irene’s comments. I mean for hours back and forth. He absolutely won’t budge an inch from Irene’s statement. Your dad was incredible. Seriously, you have a hero’s bloodline in your DNA. In my world travels if someone would ask me to tell them what a stereotypical Fillipino was like I would say that they are the happiest people on the planet. I have seen… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

It is true, about Saudi Arabia. Dad would pray he would never be sent there because he would be powerless to help anyone. He said it would destroy his soul.

Thats why I said that Israel would be the one place in the Middle East he could stand.

I’m glad you enjoyed the essay. Thank you for the praise. But you really should read about Peter Grant’s story. He too is a real hero, whose tale merits more attention as well.

snelson134
Guest

The worst side effect of AA is that it demeans the achievements of those who have worked and achieved through merit.

Jordan S. Bassior
Guest

What’s more, the offer of extra special respect for you for being non-white and female is doubly poisoned — not only does it imply that being non-white or female is inherently inferior, but it also comes with the proviso “as long as you agree with us on everything.” Notice how quickly they turn on someone, such as Sarah Hoyt (or yourself) who doesn’t agree with them, on the excuse that they are betraying their groups (or, more accurately, their assumptions about how members of their groups “should”) think?

James May
Guest

Those people are frightening. They remind me of those kids in Village of the Damned. Tor’s influence in SFF has been as destructive as Ace and Ballantine’s was positive in the ’60s. Imagine having a Scalzi and Hayden instead of Wollheim and Lin Carter; scratch one revival of Burroughs, Lovecraft and Howard. Try and imagine what the Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series looks like with the ideology of Kate Millet and Andrea Dworkin trying to solve the male gaze and the gap of male ignorance.

Wild Ape
Guest

That is a good point. That is exactly what common core does with its literature. It eliminates conservative thought with liberally biased text and erases from history Ronald Reagan or any other conservative icon.

James May
Guest

In addition to that is the enormous amount of hate speech these people generate, and if you even blink back you’re a racist. Most of the time you were a racist just existing anyway, so it’s not great leap, but presumed.

Doug Loss
Guest

If you’re automatically a racist, then nothing you can do can change it. Therefore, you’re free to do anything you like!

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

The phrase “thought leaders” creeps me the hell out every time I see it. North Korea has “thought leaders”. So did Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Pol Pot-era Cambodia.

Nighthawk
Guest

Me too. In using that term she is admitting an attempt at leading thought into SJW territory.

Feh
Guest

There was a kerfluffle in the late 70s about Niven/Pournelle’s “Lucifer’s Hammer” being racist.

Nighthawk
Guest

Really? I liked that one a lot, it somehow felt like part of the times with all those 70’s disaster movies.

Jordan S. Bassior
Guest
In the last several years we’ve not only seen the entry of people into SFF dragging weird race-gender obsessions into an inappropriate space, but who also act as drama queens who are clearly bored with their own genre. One thing you repeatedly see from SJWs in a disinterest in SFF which puts the actual literature in the back seat. To me personally it’s as weird as a new group of people entering a church congregation and making sure half the time is devoted to fantasy football. What’s more, they don’t know the history of the genre, and self-righteously lecture on… Read more »
Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        Kristine Kathryn Rusch has been blogging about an anthology of ‘lost’ science-fiction by women authors.  She noted that the big reason for this myth of ‘no women’ was because sf&f used to revolve around magazines and anthologies.  Although there were many women writers in the genre magazines from the beginning, for some reason most didn’t get anthologized.

James May
Guest

I’ve never analyzed that but the earliest 5 anthologies Judith Merril edited from 54-59 have very few women. At some point I think you just have to chalk it up to the demographic actually there, which was itself very small.

James May
Guest

Gallo, Hayden, Feder, Bourke, Meacham.

They all have to go.

They compassionately and publicly support an ideology that is endemically hostile to my very existence. Promote SFF. If you’re compassionate about race-gender crusades then join some group somewhere and stop dragging your insane bullshit where it’s inappropriate and not wanted.

Tor is a public, supposedly neutral, arena. If they want to be seen as anti-straight white male central then that is how they will be treated.

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

Compassion is when a Commie feels passion?

Don Nutting
Guest

Let the Tor dinosaur die. Their veneer of being neutral is a sham and their brand is looking like crap. No one is forcing you or anyone to buy their stupid junk.

Mycroft
Guest

By their own standards, they have to go. They censure the Sad Puppies because of Vox Day and he isn’t part of Sad Puppies. By those standards, Tor must be held responsible for people in their employ regardless of whether what they say “officially” represents Tor.

Shadowdancer
Guest

Oh but, they’re above those rules! Because reasons. e_e Excuses really. Reason has nothing to do with it.

Beolach
Guest
Has any high-ranking employee/director/editor at Tor (similar in that regard to Irene Gallo, Moshe Feder, or Patrick Nielsen Hayden) come out as a vocal supporter of Sad Puppies, or as strongly opposing Irene Gallo’s “neo-nazis” statement? I’ve been thinking about the issue along the lines of a balance/scale. On the one side, we’ve got Gallo’s “neo-nazis” statement, and Moshe Feder’s & PNH’s continuously repeated puppy-kicking statements. On the other side we’ve got Tom Doherty’s statement – but while Tom Doherty is a significantly more substantial metaphorical weight (based on their relative positions at Tor) than the others (at least individually,… Read more »
James May
Guest
The problem is we’re now seeing literal segregation. A Lightspeed reviewer won’t review white men, John Green (with the connivance of Penguin) boycotts all male or all white panels. Tor review boycotted a VD Hugo nominated story last year. We have a racially segregated room at WisCon. The more they get away with that the bolder they’ll become, because no one is saying “no” to them, no matter how insane they have acted to date. They like boycotts? Fine. The fact you never hear “no” or opposing voices at Tor or their site shows they either don’t exist or keep… Read more »
James May
Guest

And they successfully threatened to boycott WorldCon last year to get rid of Jonathan Ross, a guy who had done exactly nothing. It’s not men like Ross who have to go, but this racist cult.

Don Nutting
Guest
I disagree with what you say in part. From an egalitarian perspective it is better that all viewpoints are allowed to be voiced. You’ve never read a book and said, this is good but I cannot be allowed to like it because the author is a liberal have you? From a business perspective it would be better to cast a wide net of perspectives and not limit your fiction. Tor is betting on the strength of their brand name will continue to be profitable by presenting their liberal fiction. Let Tor the Dinosaur die. Let them be shredded in the… Read more »
Don Nutting
Guest
I have a proposal. Why don’t we create a Sad Puppy – Tor charity drive to benefit the victims of the recent shooting in Charleston or Wounded Warriors or some charity that promotes literacy? Instead of the focus during the Hugos being the negative fighting between the camps there can be a focus on something positive about the SF/F fandom. This would also inject our positive nature vice feed the negative. I don’t think Tor could meet the challenge. I know that the Sad Puppies have an audience with charitable hearts. What do you all think?
Frank Probst
Guest

What you’re suggesting was actually done during World War II. If you google “Armed Services Edition”, you can see what the program looked like (and you can buy some of the books on eBay). Basically, publishers agreed to create free versions of their books that were shipped to the troops overseas. The list of titles was quite long but was noticeably short on SF/F titles. The program was widely considered to be a success, but it doesn’t seemed to have carried over to any subsequent wars.

Don Nutting
Guest

We need to revive it then. I’d have confidence that the Sad Puppies could outmatch the Tor group in charity. After all their hearts appear to be Grinch sized, and our values are invested in big hearted and true compassion.

David Lang
Guest

Operation Baen Bulk 2015 ( http://obb.teddroberts.com/ ) is already in the works. They took a pause last year but in 2013 raised over $5K and used it to buy ~80 kindles (that Baen and a couple of other publishers then donated 500 titles for)

Don Nutting
Guest

Cool! We could piggy back on that.

Will
Guest

btw, has anyone seen this proposed new voting scheme for the Hugo?
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016227.html#016227

Doug Loss
Guest

Might you have sent the wrong link? I skimmed through that discussion and didn’t find anything about Hugo voting there. I might have missed it, but I don’t think so.

SJW75126
Guest
I think he is talking about E Pluribus Hugo also known as SDV-LPE. Basically it is a nomination system where each voter gets one point. Nominate as many as you want. If you nominate four, each will receive 1/4th point. The nominations go through an elimination phase. The two lowest point totals are compared. The one with the fewest nominations is eliminated. Here we are talking about number of ballots not number of points. Now we do it again. And the process repeats till the voting ballot is determined. Aren’t computers wonderful? However, your points get reallocated on every round… Read more »
James May
Guest

“E Plebneesta” is more like it.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest

“this two-step approach makes this system as close to that as possible.”

Nonsense. The more complex the rules become, the more opportunities there are for exploiting them. If they think that the straw man objections they’ve put forth are the only potential exploit in that steaming pile of rules-lawyering…heh.

2017 is going to be pretty interesting if they actually manage to get that passed.

Alex
Guest

Jack:

I got several Internal Server Errors before comments would load. On my phone this afternoon, I had several failure to connect to database errors.

Synova
Guest

I’m getting bunches of those.

JackWylder
Guest

Hopefully the changes implemented late Friday should be in effect and you’ll see them less (or not at all, which would be nice)

Stan Bundy
Guest

Will the social login stuff start working then, or is that a different issue? I can’t login to post with FB, Google or Twitter, even those are all listed as options, and its not recognizing my being logged into wordpress anymore either.

JackWylder
Guest

First I’ve heard of that so I’m going to go with ‘separate issue’. The changes implemented have helped a bit, btw, but not as much as hoped. More drastic measures might need to be taken.

edited to add: I’ve looked into the social log in and while it won’t be all that hard, it *will* require some efforts from the ILoH and I working in conjunction. (This means we’ll do it, but not until Larry gets a “free” hour or two…)

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

“¿ǝuuǝıɹpɐ ‏@adrienneleigh · 1h1 hour ago
@Pixelfish @Halftongue Right? (He’s one of the very worst of the Baen crowd, not just as a racist but as a homophobe & misogynist.)”

Some random haters talking about Michael Z Williamson. Now, considering his very first novel stars a strong bisexual woman of mixed race, that kinda torpedoes all three claims with a single blow, doesn’t it?

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool
Not entirely. There’s always my ‘disagreeing with me on drug policy is racist’ argument. Which of course has the obvious counter of pointing out that my views on drug policy are so far from mainstream that such usage utterly debases the word racist.* Plus, we all know that Mike’s politics are extremely coherent and strongly held, and it is entirely absurd to suppose a secret purpose behind that one issue. His actual views on sexual politics are what make the homophobe and misogynist claims absurd. For there to be any basis, modern feminism would have to be understood as being… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

Facts don’t matter! Unless they’re trying to defend their own side. We’re not allowed to use the weapons of the patriarchy, because reasons!

Don Nutting
Guest

Yep, they never seem to let facts that counter them to interrupt their narrative. I’m sure there is a Forest Gump quote that fits this.

Don Nutting
Guest

I just saw the same Twitter feed with the exact same post. There must be nine or ten of these with the exact same wording: “Since the Puppy boycott of Tor Books is on I just bought three ebooks from Tor and preordered two more ” Do they think we are idiots or that the public is stupid? I think they are banking on the public being stupid. Watch out! Put your BS shielding up to max! The Tor bots are swarming.

David MacKinnon
Guest

No fair using common sense, truth and humor against unarmed opponents.

Don Nutting
Guest
Lol David, I think the Apaches had the right idea. They had no concept of a fair fight. Common sense confounds them, truth hurts them and humor is just too much fun to resist. I’m laughing at their bleating and hand wringing at being called CHORFs as if that would even equal what the Tor editors have called us. They need to get a grip. I like GRRM but he is huffing and puffing about puppy kickers being used. Really? What about the puppy piddling jokes and the puppy nipping stuff? Who cares?
TRX
Guest

“Tokenism… sock puppetry… cultural appropriation… straight white males can’t understand or write PoC characters.”

Unroll as necessary, wipe, flush.

James May
Guest

Those are not random haters but well-known sources of racial incitement and incitement to hate men the upper echelon SJW “allies” draw on for their ideological marching orders and sometimes interact with on Twitter. Did you really think Jim Hines invented terms like “cisnormative” and “genderblindness”?

Shadowdancer
Guest
James May
Guest
Through research and education we have established that SJWs either hate us or are well-meaning but daffy do-gooders who have adopted a paranoid feminist ideology that hates our very race and sexuality. SJWs are a majority influence in all of SFF’s old core institutions. They repeatedly vilify us for being white, male and heterosexual. They ask us to #JustListen to feminists in the face of sick rape hoaxes and fake statistics. Award-winning authors repeatedly remind whites of their privilege and lie about racial murders in a way that reverses actual FBI statistics. They repeatedly launch affirmative action initiatives based on… Read more »
Wild Ape
Guest

Epic rant James! I wish you would give me some quotes of who said what and where you got it. I go to their blog sites and I’d love to have more ammunition.

Will
Guest

Found the area they were talking about the proposed new voting rules:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/016206.html#4129070
(Actually extends above and below this comment number)

AH! There was a link to the working list of the rules:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f3I6rplnIRxpcl4UnpWTIr1dnUNX0tViSGQ61YP4jpg/edit#

trackback

[…] However, Peter Grant isn’t a spokesman for Sad Puppies.  He’s never pretended to be either.  He’s been himself and speaking for himself.  Larry Correia, however, is a spokesman for the Sad Puppy side, and here’s what he had to say about the situation. […]

trackback

[…] of the Sad Puppies movement, the International Lord of Hate Larry Correia, has come out and said he does not endorse the boycott. I reiterate – I do. Those of us on the Puppy side have taken enough abuse from the other side, […]

Shadowdancer
Guest

*laughing so hard right now she’s in tears*

Such obvious bots! It must be read.
http://voxday.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/the-first-law-in-action.html

Really, it needs to be seen! Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Nighthawk
Guest

That is so sad it’s become hillarious 🙂

David MacKinnon
Guest

Bwahahahaha…pant, pant, Bwahahahaha…
Cheshire Cat ain’t got jack on my grill!

The thing I tend to notice about these kool-aide drinking true believers on the Left is that they do, in reality, the evil, hatey, hate, hate activities they accuse those on the Right of doing.

Zsuzsa
Guest

Just proves the saying that if you want to know what the SJWs are up to, take a look at what they’re accusing US of…

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

http://www.starburstmagazine.com/book-news/12304-book-boycott-backfires

So, apparently the boycott of TOR has completely backfired . . . in slightly less than 24 hours? That’s what this article claims. After all, a whole three people on Twitter (and a host of bots) have said they’re buying TOR books. Well, that settles that! Also, Peter Grant is said to have “issued a list of demands on behalf of The Puppies” which is a damned lie. They even claim Wright endorses the boycott (he flatly stated he didn’t). Lies, lies, lies . . .

Nathan
Guest

The desperation is real…

Jared Anjewierden
Guest
See, this is one time where their normal spin and lies will not be of any help. We won’t know if the boycott has worked or not for weeks and months. Fake accounts saying they bought Tor books might sway anyone who is on the fence about a boycott, but honestly how many are in that camp that will see the news? If anything loudly announcing the boycott has failed will get people asking ‘what boycott?’ ‘why are people boycotting?’ Either way though those fake accounts aren’t actually buying Tor books, which does nothing for the bottom line that is… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

They’re hoping we instantly give up, I guess.

Wild Ape
Guest
They are banking on the perception that everything is cool and Tor has thwarted the boycott. They are trying to gin up support and they resort to their greatest weapon–the Facebook/Twitter mob and bots. They are in a serious fight. I suspect they are losing. GRRM tried to tell them that they were alienating fandom and I don’t think he is wrong. At minimum they are shaving off a percentage of their customers and there is the real possibility that their marketing campaign will fail and they might topple. I say if you have read an actual Tor book and… Read more »
Nighthawk
Guest

They apparently believe that saying something over and over will conjure it into being.

James May
Guest

Funnily enough, the craziest feminist ideologues among them believe exactly that. See: the poststructuralism of Jacques Derrida to Judith Butler – the “performative” and “agency” in French Queer Theory.

Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        Their problem is that they confuse World One, World Two, and World Three.  (For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popper's_three_worlds).

Doug Loss
Guest

They’ve ALWAYS believed that.

Stephen M. St. Onge
Guest

        They can hope what they want, but I’ll carry this to the grave and leave it for my heirs in my will.  No business can insult me in that way and get more money from me.

Nighthawk
Guest

I quit reading after they indicated that VD is a Sad Puppy.
The entire article falls under the “make shit up” rule lol

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

It is arguably falsehoods, but may not be lies.

What you describe being said about Peter might possibly be a result of extreme reading comprehension failure.

I have seen certain comments of John Wright. It is plausible to me that a really poor reader may misunderstand them, especially if they make the mistake of thinking he isn’t honest and very careful in his wording.

David MacKinnon
Guest

More like the fool thought he was smarter than John. C. Wight. I wouldn’t back Einstien in that fight, let alone a random, progressive internet troll.

Wild Ape
Guest

They must be channeling Bagdad Bob or an Obama press secretary

James May
Guest
Let’s take a time out for a laugh at Damien’s expense. The equally gay Milo with a platform no stronger than Walter’s Guardian has amassed as many Twitter followers in the last month as Damien has in total. Milo’s well over 50,000 now to Walter’s 5,000. it’s not like Walter didn’t have his shot. Making stuff up that’s easily pulled apart doesn’t really appeal to people. Watch Milo debate sometimes. Not only does he not avoid it like SJWs do, he loves it. That’s the secret Damien. Instead of deleting people, stand up and make your case. Turns out you… Read more »
Jared Anjewierden
Guest

Milo makes a much better modern Wilde than Damien ever did.

(Is he gay then? Actually didn’t know one way or the other – or care.)

James May
Guest
The only reason I mentioned Milo is gay is because I figure that makes Walter fume more than anything else. Walter needs to reverse course and get on board with reality. I’d feel different if this was a close call but it’s not – not even close. You have to be insane, a bigot or insanely naive to believe in SJW ideology. I think I’ve gotten pretty good at figuring which one’s are the naive, have medicated personality disorders or just hate men, whites and heterosexuals. There’s no in-between; these people deal in unreality, not facts. We have systematically shredded… Read more »
Beolach
Guest

I think the question was in reference to Damien. Is Damien gay? You said “the equally gay Milo” – which leads to the question, whose gayness is Milo’s gayness equal to? The only possible candidate in your post is Damien, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard that Damien is gay (and like Jared, I don’t care).

Shadowdancer
Guest

IIRC Damien Walter said he was gay back during Sad Puppies 2, when he was writing slander and libels against Larry Correia.

Milo is openly flamboyantly gay and he’s quite delightful as he is. That he’s able to take down SJW arguments with facts and reason and skewer every single FEELS! excuse is glorious. That he had feminists crying about misogyny losing a public open debate to a gay man on Twitter was probably one of the more entertaining things to happen recently.

Wes S.
Guest

The Breitbart article Milo wrote after the Gamergate gathering in DC was disrupted by a bomb threat – after that idiot from Salon spent an entire day whipping up a SJW lynch mob against it on Twitter – was hilarious: “Hey, thanks dude! You got me laid!”

But according to the SJWs, people like us want to burn people like Milo at the stake. You know, like ISIS is actually doing to gays right now, but for some reason the SJWs can’t be arsed to care about *them.*

trackback

[…] >> Addendum: as a kind commentator on Stellar Reaches noted, Sad Puppies isn’t calling for any boycotts… […]

Will
Guest

Hmm, sent a correction last night, but it hasn’t appeared. Here’s one link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f3I6rplnIRxpcl4UnpWTIr1dnUNX0tViSGQ61YP4jpg/edit#

jic
Guest
Ironically, even though this is obviously aimed directly at us, it doesn’t really affect us: “How does this eliminate slates? It doesn’t, not completely — nor should it, as slate proponents have as much right to representation as any other voter. However, by nominating a full slate of works, they have weakened their votes by spreading their points out among the five works on the slate. Since the rest of fandom is slowly increasing the points given to their choices, it’s not possible for slates to control the -entire- ballot. It is very likely, however, that they will get some… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
It might be a bit labored. But you are correct. This isn’t going to keep you from getting something on the list. I don’t think they want to do that. You pay your $60 and you get your one vote. I actually like the way it works. Since my one point (vote) gets divided up each nomination is weaker than one vote. But if one of my nominations is eliminated, each of my remaining nominations are now stronger by some fraction of one vote. When only one of my nominations are left, it carries my full one vote or one… Read more »
jic
Guest
“But you are correct. This isn’t going to keep you from getting something on the list. I don’t think they want to do that.” Well, yes, they do state in several places (including in the passages I quoted from above) that this proposal isn’t aimed at eliminating any and all influence the puppies might have on the ballot. However, I don’t think this proposal would exist if not for all the rhetoric about our true aim being to force anybody who isn’t ‘like us’ off the ballot. So, in that respect, I think it’s funny that it doesn’t really affect… Read more »
Wild Ape
Guest

Are you kidding? Sixty bucks for a vote? How about $5 as a bronze membership and $40 for a ticket to Worldcon in a gold membership. Making voting easier for fandom and a broader number of voters is the better way.

James May
Guest

I don’t go by some generic demographic, I go by hate speech and those who support it. I don’t give a shit about whether they hunt, fish or eat Suzy-Q’s.

jic
Guest

I’m not in that “demographic” (except for that bit about Heinlein, and even there I’d tack a few caveats on), and I know a lot (perhaps even most) of my fellow puppies aren’t either. While I’m certainly not claiming that the particular person they are talking about doesn’t exist and isn’t more-or-less as described, the phrasing did make me think of the ‘lifelong conservatives’ that the media always somehow finds to interview at left wing protests.

Zsuzsa
Guest
“One of the members of the group is a retired US Naval officer, a combat veteran, a certified Navy marksman, a Christian, and considers Robert Heinlein to be the greatest science fiction author who has ever lived. In short, he is exactly the Puppies’ demographic.” Reminds me of a troll at one author’s blog (sorry, I don’t remember which one at the moment) who started by saying, “I’m a lifelong Republican, Heinlein and Card are my favorite authors…” Sarah Hoyt pointed out that no actual Republican would identify himself that way–and for that matter, no actual fan of Robert Heinlein… Read more »
jic
Guest

“Similarly, that “Christian, Heinlein-worshiping Navy marksman” sounds like what someone would come up with a stereotypical “puppy,” assuming that person had never actually met a supporter of Sad Puppies”

Not to mention that it’s possible to be all those things, and still be slightly to the left of Mao. In fact, weren’t Heinlein’s socialist years almost immediately after he left the navy?

Frank Probst
Guest
If I make it to the con (which depends on my health), I’m planning on sitting through the world’s most boring rules meeting to oppose all of these changes. I think the current system is imperfect, but it’s the best system we’re going to get. Voting for a slate has been possible for decades under the current rules. It was only when people did it–and other people didn’t like the result–that the need for “reform” arose. I don’t know how the Hugo awards are going to turn out this year, but I think the nominations process next year is going… Read more »
Wild Ape
Guest

I think the $40 ticket to vote is absurd and eliminates a lot of fandom from voting. Most who attend the event are people involved in fiction and there is only a sliver of fan representation. Broadening the vote by dropping the price of voting to $5 would bring many more fans of SF/F and cast a more accurate picture of all of fandom.

James May
Guest
Three years of daily non-stop racial incitement and incitement to hate men has gone into a memory-hole at Glyer’s. That’s not hard to fathom when the people actually doing that don’t see their hate speech as hate speech but instead the complete opposite. That’s easy to do when your definition is anything which attacks straight white men is never hate speech no matter what. However it is hard to fathom how a guy like Glyer who supposedly has his finger on the pulse of SFF could miss 3 years of this. It’s pretty obvious from the comments at 770 and… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest

Myself, I’m putting my money where I think I’ll get bang for my bucks.

Kicked in to this:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1486366537/champions-of-aetaltis-a-heroic-fantasy-anthology/

Larry Correia, Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, Jean Rabe — yespls.

Nighthawk
Guest

Thank you for posting that. I’m going to try and kick in to it also. Of course I love Larry’s novels, but I also really enjoy all those from Forgotten Realms 🙂

Shadowdancer
Guest

I saw that backers get free digital copies of MHI. =D Wooooo~!!!!

John R. Ellis
Guest

Oh, man! I used to love Elaine Cunningham’s Arilyn and Danilo stories! Thanks for posting this! 🙂

Shadowdancer
Guest

You’re welcome =D

James May
Guest
SFF editor and Publisher’s Weekly review editor Rose Fox: “White parents of White boys, your most important task is countering the culture that wants to turn them into racist, misogynist killers.” Same: “Hate is default White male behavior in America. Has been for a long time. Teach your boys better before they hurt/kill someone else’s kids.” Same: “American White male culture is racist and sexist. If that offends you, as a White American male, go do something about it.” * And who’s in her “you may also like” area? Other quote factories: N. K. Jemisin @nkjemisin Catherynne ValenteVerified account @catvalente… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

I’ve come to realize over the past year that SJWs are deeply boring, deeply depressing people.

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool
Of course, they are probably the real face of white supremacism in our country. Who just burned down a bunch of property in Baltimore that will most adversely impact minorities? It wasn’t the right. It was the Left, and they even peddled a bunch of falsehoods about it being part of fighting racism. Yeah, maybe a white guy did fund the agitators. Mosby apparently identifies as black, and she was and is a key player in the apparent lies that sparked things. No, she helped fan the spark into a flame. Again, I am reminded about the lies about rape… Read more »
Shadowdancer
Guest
I would caution against that idea of voting against someone so horrible that they must be defeated. This happened in the last Philippine presidential elections. The top runner was the known corrupt Estrada, versus Noynoy Aquino. Afraid that we’d see a repeat of Estrada’s presidency, the ones who had no intention of originally voting for either, voted for Noynoy to keep him out of the Palace. Within a few months, I was hearing bitter mutterings of deeply regretting voting Noynoy in, and ‘at least with Estrada, we knew what would happen.’ These days, I hear the regret expressed because at… Read more »
Wild Ape
Guest
I have to agree with Shadowdancer. Hitler was seen as the better alternative to the communists in Germany if you recall and look how that turned out. Also remember that political left-right spectrum wise Nazi are a short for National Socialists. It is what happens when socialism goes wrong. Our Democrat party of the 40s would have been to the right of the Nazi party. Yet whenever they smear Republicans it is because everyone says that the Nazis were right wing extremists. The truth is that in the spectrum of left and right with the bookends being communist and socialist… Read more »
BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool
I haven’t yet found a Republican so bad running against a Democrat or Nazi so good. I haven’t even found something worth abstaining from voting or voting third party. It is bad for a Party to have votes they cannot alienate. They take votes for granted, and get lazy and stupid.t For that reason, I am a little troubled by the practical reality of having no reason not to vote a straight Republican ticket nor easily anticipating such a reason. I think the Democrats have a proven track record, as an organization, of internal terror and internal murder. I also… Read more »
Don Nutting
Guest

I agree. Germans voted for Hitler because he looked like the reasonable alternative to communism. You have to champion people that are better than Hitler or the scoundrel who is there. Sometimes taking out the head of a radical group makes a bigger problem. Look at Osama Bin Laden and ISIS.

Calling for the heads of Tor makes me think where will these guys go? They might learn from their mistakes and go out and rebrand with a more subtle and insidious brand. At least we know what Tor really is.

Wes S.
Guest
“Yes, maybe after years of careful searching they have finally found the HoRaWa nutter they’ve been wanting. ” If by “years of careful searching” you mean “blaming the nearest conserative or mere Republican for whatever newsworthy tragedy or atrocity occurs as soon as the news breaks, going all the way back to the Oklahoma City bombing if not the JFK assassination.” And if by “HoRaWa nutter” you mean “the world’s first emo-anarchist white supremacist.” Funny thing about Roof: He looks just like Elliott Rodgers, or Jared Loughner, or the moron who shot up Virginia Tech, or the other moron who… Read more »
BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

Wes, yes, exactly.

The cult of Obama says all opponents are racists, and if they can’t find a legitimate example they devote their full power to creating the appearance of one.

I’d add to your list Brown and Martin, also products of a permissive environment, even if they were not spree killers. I suspect the roots are drug use and other products of a lack of parental engagement.

Synova
Guest
For what it’s worth, if it’s worth anything, the comments after an article about how a woman was so excited she was having a girl-nerd and had bought all sorts of fun sci-fi baby stuff to raise her girl-nerd to be a kick ass sci-fi geek girl… found out she was having a boy and was suddenly freaked out about how to teach him not to be a Bad Person… The comments were nearly uniformly… “You’re an abusive horrible person that should never be trusted with a child.” I honestly am beginning to think that someone in the back ground… Read more »
James May
Guest

I agree this is happening. People like K. Tempest Bradford are being used as freaks like in a carnival sideshow.

JP
Guest
Personally, I am used to being lied about. At some point, the lies and slander require a response… Tor has implemented a new social media policy, so that when its employees are calling its customers names, they need to make it clear they are speaking for themselves and not their employer. That is pretty standard in the rest of the corporate world. Actually, no. If you make an offensive comment on social media, YOUR ASS IS FIRED even if you never connected yourself with the company on social media and always said they were “personal comments”. It is enough for… Read more »
trackback

[…] of the Sad Puppies movement, the International Lord of Hate Larry Correia, has come out and said he does not endorse the boycott. I reiterate – I do. Those of us on the Puppy side have taken enough abuse from the other side, […]

Lockestep
Guest
Most casual observers group all the Hugo SJW opposition into a single entity. So when the Rabid Ones go boycott crazy, it gets read as “Puppies are boycotting”. It is hard to get the point across that there is a spectrum of opposition. And the RPs are really all-in on the boycott too – suggesting that a general boycott would hit good authors with friendly fire got me multiple flame attacks in return. Did not even get into the idea that boycotts never work. The only thing about them that does work is company fears of negative publicity. 10 or… Read more »
Nighthawk
Guest
It can be hard to follow for someone who isn’t closely watching. From what I can see there are: Sad Puppies – Larry started the whole thing with SP1. Rabid Puppies – I honestly don’t know where these came from, but it’s always kind of bugged me how they cribbed the name and logo. I like to go over every now and then to see whats happening, because these guys are always entertaining 🙂 Friendly wandering puppies – I made that up but its for people like Peter Grant who get so riled up they begin and entirely new front.… Read more »
Frank Probst
Guest
Sad Puppies was originally started by Larry Correia as SP1. He freely admits that he did it out of spite, which I have no problem with, as I think this is a perfectly good reason to organize against an organization that you think is behaving unfairly. Coreia did SP2 last year and decided that he had made his point, and he was planning on quitting there, but Brad Torgersen offered to take over and do SP3. The SP3 slate was constructed by Torgersen with input from pretty much anyone who wanted to get in touch with him. The slate is… Read more »
jaed
Guest

It is worth noting, however, that Vox didn’t post his list (or announce a parallel Rabid Puppies effort) until after the last date to purchase a membership that would let you nominate for this year.

In other words, any of his Ilk who saw the RP post and decided to do as suggested would not have been able to nominate, unless they were already Sasquan members (or Loncon members) before that point. He couldn’t have inspired any “extra” nominators based on that post, because it was made too late to sign up for Sasquan.

Frank Probst
Guest

@Nighthawk

I left a detailed answer, but it’s stuck in moderation.

JackWylder
Guest

If your post contains multiple links, the system sets it aside flagged as spam. Cleared now…

BobtheRegisterredFool
Guest
BobtheRegisterredFool

But SP, RP and Pete Grant are quite aware that this is a PR thing. It is pretty clear that any financial effects would take a long time to show, and would be dependent on Tor being in poor condition. Is Tor’s accounting good enough to even capture the effects of a major boycott?

SJW75126
Guest

Sure. It’s sales. But it can’t capture a minor boycott offset by a anti-boycott. Look at the sales of some of the major Tor writers. These guys have followings. The Southern Baptist boycotted Disney for 8 years and gave up looking foolish. This will have less effect than that, IMHO.

jic
Guest

I doubt either the boycott or the buycott will rise above the ‘noise’ in Tors sales figures. Boycotts are a lot like online petitions: minimal-effort protests that usually have minimal effect.

Don Nutting
Guest
I’m not boycotting but if anything has so much as a whiff of SJW in it I’m not taking the chance on new writers from Tor. I’ll keep on with those that I do. know. I read Lightspeed from time to time. They have two titles that I’m not sure make it past the monitors but it is So-and-so Destroys Science Fiction series. Those are easy to avoid. It isn’t that I’m not open minded to new writers or the thought of a trans hero or something. Tyrion for instance is central to the story and a sympathetic hero. Dinklege… Read more »
James May
Guest

I disagree. Ditching 5 anti-male anti-white bigots compared to several thousand readers which may grow and grow to an unknown extent is an easy call. The fact those five cannot shut their mouths or stop banning their own customers shows they are obsessed with a thing that has nothing to do with SFF or business. Why should Tor coddle the personality disorders or naivete of morons?

SJW75126
Guest
James May ask: “Why should Tor coddle the personality disorders or naivete of morons?” 1. Because they don’t see it (the comment) or them the same way you do. 2. Because firing 5 people is a really big deal. 3. Because she apologized (See Jim Butchers comments) 4. Because they would piss off more customers if they did and they have already pissed them off as a number think Tom Doherty threw Irene Gallo under the bus. 5. Because you are a tiny number of people so you don’t have much sway. 6. It is analogous to paying off a… Read more »
jic
Guest

” Because you are a tiny number of people so you don’t have much sway.”

Said the SJW.

Doug Loss
Guest
And like pretty much the entire left, you can’t imagine that the majority of the public disagrees with you and doesn’t think like you. You SJWs are in fact insulting the rest of us, and we definitely notice it. Sad Puppies isn’t calling for a boycott of Tor, but individuals (yes, we are individuals and can think for ourselves; many on the left seem unfamiliar with the concept) are saying that they will no longer buy Tor products until Tor does more than provide “bandaid” lip service to disciplining the virulently despicable things its employees say routinely. In order: Your… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
Just to your Response 3 – see Jim Butchers comment on this. “Sad Puppies isn’t calling for a boycott of Tor, but individuals (yes, we are individuals and can think for ourselves; many on the left seem unfamiliar with the concept) are saying that they will no longer buy Tor products until Tor does more than provide “bandaid” lip service to disciplining the virulently despicable things its employees say routinely.” Sorry – it is a distinction without a difference to me and I do nuance – I am a liberal. Again see the discussion between Brad R. Torgersen and Martin.… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
Hey SJ I think you’re actually referring to a comment that Larry made. Mr. Butcher made a quick comment and left. Maybe I’m a little delusional, but I recall a fellow two months ago on The Otherwhen Gazette who’s “voice” is nearly identical to yours that professed to being a conservative. He, like you, could argue with several at the same time and not raise a sweat. I think at one point he was keeping a dozen people all twisted up. Last week, I’d swear we had another encounter, this time at Brad’s place. Your handle was greg something, a… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
Hi Angus Trim. You and I have been discussing and it has been enjoyable. I embrace the SJW title not really knowing all it implies simply because I am a real life liberal. I don’t mean progressive. I mean liberal. If you ask me about President Obama I will tell you I was a delegate for him twice but that he is a centrist and is a bit right wing for my taste. I am not a writer. I am an accountant. I hope one day to be a retired accountant. I love books and I love politics although I… Read more »
James May
Guest

A liberal is not an SJW. Do you really think people get this angry about something they’ve lived with all their lives? If you’re not pushing trigger warnings and white privilege you’re not an SJW.

Doug Loss
Guest

If you consider Obama centrist and a bit too “right-wing” for your taste, you’re not a liberal, you’re an extreme leftist.

SJW75126
Guest

“you’re not a liberal, you’re an extreme leftist.”

Which sounds a lot like a certain facebook comment that has you up in arms…. Hmmm. But I am not offended. See how that works. Give it a shot.

Don Nutting
Guest

That sounds nothing like what a certain Facebook comment said. The two comments were not comparable at all SJW. If he gave a groundless charge by calling you a pedophile or something then you could make that claim. It is good to see you bear up under the “withering” fire of being called an extreme leftist. Most SJWs would be shrieking and fainting by now.

Doug Loss
Guest

If you equate being called “an extreme leftist” with being called “a neo-nazi,” it really calls your ability to correctly parse simple English phrases into question.

SJW75126
Guest
Quick followup. Angus said: “I think you’re actually referring to a comment that Larry made. Mr. Butcher made a quick comment and left.” My apologies. I was unclear. I read so much. Butcher has tried very hard not to get dragged into this. So almost doesn’t talk at all. Here is what he said about Gallo’s apology: “I don’t know if Ms. Gallo’s apology was sincere or insincere. I don’t know that, because I can’t read her freaking mind. And neither, presumably, can anyone else. I work with words professionally. I know exactly how powerful they can be. I am… Read more »
TWS
Guest

No she did not apologize. She accused me of vile practices then did not apologize or retract. I did not see, “I’m sorry, you are not a neo-nazi, racist, homophobe and I was wrong to lie about that.”

What I read was, “I’m sorry that you were offended by what I said.” In other words, “I’m sorry me pointing out you’re a neo-nazi racist hurts your feelings.”

Don Nutting
Guest
Butcher is calling for reason and asking that we give the benefit of doubt to Gallo. Some will and some won’t. I think that she has had nothing but time to clarify her apology. My perception is that Tor doesn’t like wrongfans and wrongwriters. I could be wrong but maybe the curtains are freaking blue. I am more like Peter Grant who says that one is an anomaly, two are a coincidence, but if you have three, four, or five, it is an attack. I doubt my perception of Tor is wrong. SJW75126—voce, voco, vocius made me laugh. It must… Read more »
Doug Loss
Guest

Oh please. Her “apology” was a near textbook example of the standard leftist non-apology apology. Pretending otherwise only makes you look (more) foolish.

Reality Observer
Guest

“Distinction without a difference…”

Really? Then we are perfectly correct to lump you in with the likes of Farrakhan, Black Panthers, ISIS, Bahar Mustafa… That is, people that want to kill us. Yep, there’s a distinction – that WE make – between those nutcases and you, even when you say SOME of the same things that they do.

Do you truly want to go down this road? When WE also believe in self-defense?

Doug Loss
Guest

If you can’t recognize the difference between individual descisions and diktats from some authoritarian group (here’s a hint, none of us would ever accept such diktats), you really aren’t aware enough to have a valid point in this conversation.

Synova
Guest
Sad Puppies are not calling for a boycott of Tor. For anyone you’ve seen saying they won’t buy Tor any longer, have you seen any trying to tell anyone else that they need to boycott Tor too? Stuff like… “Guys, this won’t work if we don’t stand together…” etc? Well, I haven’t. I’m not boycotting. Mostly I don’t buy Tor books anyway but there is at least one author I’ve been waiting for for a long time. He doesn’t deserve to have been screwed over by Tor (long story) finally get his book on the shelves (with an awesome cover)… Read more »
James May
Guest

Straight white males are over 100 million Americans, so Tor loses that fight. And of course Tor doesn’t see it my way. Why do you think we’re pushing?

Don Nutting
Guest
You would like to think we are a minority. This Sad Puppy thing is in its infant stages. Conservatives outnumber liberals by a good margin. Calling someone a neo-Nazi is calling someone Hitler and it doesn’t charm me one bit to buy Tor books. You think your comments can flag my morale? I’m a combat vet not an SJW liberal daisy. I just don’t feel compelled to buy their books. Their marketing scheme alienates and repels me . Scalzi and Irene Gallo need to treat their potty mouths and hate with a breath mint. There is so much better stuff… Read more »
jic
Guest

You know, Peter Grant specifically said that he isn’t calling for firings or resignations over this, just public reprimands and apologies. But anyway, I doubt that Tor will actually lose “several thousand readers” over this, at least not permanently. Boycotts are not usually very effective.

SJW75126
Guest

Did you see the VD followup. He is. And frankly Peter’s demands are so extreme he might as well be. Very few people are going to take either seriously – again, IMHO. And again, this is a SJW perspective so take that with how ever many grains you think.

Nathan
Guest
With a mine full of salt. As for Peter Grant’s demands, how are these extreme? Especially in an age where people are routinely fired for wearing the wrong shirt or saying the wrong thing. From http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2015/06/can-you-hear-us-now-another-open-letter.html “… please be advised that I look for the following actions from Tor … : Tor should publicly apologize for the efforts by all, repeat, all of the persons I named … to demonize, denigrate, slander and lie about the ‘Puppies’ campaigns; Tor should publicly reprimand those individuals for stepping over the line (including misusing company time and computer equipment to do so); Tor… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
I don’t reprimand employees publicly. I don’t even reprimand employees in front of employees. And if they are really good i don’t reprimand at all but rather coach. Gallo is really good by all accounts. It’s just silly. Also see points 6 and 7. Again.. IMHO. I do wish I had better data as to numbers. Similarly with data regards to the make up of Worldcom voting members. Now getting even more speculative… consider how random things are. SF/F isn’t a big pond. I read a little SF/F and I know who Tolkien is and Ray Bradbury. And I found… Read more »
Nathan
Guest
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing just by saying “because I said so.” Because your answers had nothing to do with my question, nor did I ask what you would do. The people who are rallying around Tor in defense of Gallo and Feder are in many cases the same who agitated successfully for the removal of Jean Rabe, Mike Resnick, and Barry Malzberg from the SFWA Bulletin because the latter two, in reminisces of earlier times, happened to mention that a female editor they knew from fifty years back was hot. Compared to that, a public… Read more »
Nathan
Guest

Make that “Gallo and Feder’s actions” in the above.

SJW75126
Guest

You asked me how it was extreme. I told you. It’s worse than extreme. It’s silly. All other personnel actions by whatever membership group to the contrary.

Doug Loss
Guest

Your response is nonsensical, you know.

James May
Guest

The only “tribe” I know about is the one I was thrown into by a yowling pack of feminist racists with personality disorders: straight white male.

Shadowdancer
Guest

So you agree that it was acceptable for a scientist to be hounded by the public into tears for wearing a shirt they didn’t like, and that it was okay to hound another scientist for a joke? That it was okay for Jonathan Ross to be hounded off of LonCon for a joke he *might* make?

Randy P.
Guest

Not answered. Gasp and shock.

Synova
Guest

Why do you assume that “whatever you are championing” is something other than more involvement and more entertaining books?

Synova
Guest

“Don’t allow your employees to publicly libel your authors or your customers without consequence” is extreme?

That’s an interesting use of the English language.

And BTW… it’s *libel* when it’s materially damaging and not in the realm of opinion but concerning matters of fact.

SJW75126
Guest

Then obviously, her comment was not libel. It may have pissed you off. But it wasn’t libel. Personally, I don’t think you should get pissed off.

Randy P.
Guest

“Personally, I don’t think you should get pissed off.”

Well, that settles everything, doesn’t it? I’m sure glad you told me the right way to feel about this.

Patrick Chester
Guest

Why do I get the feeling SJW wishes us to think it’s rain that’s spattering on our legs?

Shadowdancer
Guest

So, Jim Butcher is a bad to reprehnsible writer? If so, why did Tor agree to include one of his works in the Tor published anthology Dangerous Women?

Also, I think you should feel upset on our behalf, since you think you have the right to tell us how we should feel, we similarly get that right.

Oh wait, you mean you don’t think of us as equals, that’s why you get to tell us how we should think and feel, not the other way around? That’s racist and misogynist, especially addressed to this Puppy, who is a minority woman.

Don Nutting
Guest
You don’t think I should be pissed off? I’m sick of being demonized. I’m sick of people I care about being hurt in this tribal warfare that the left has against us. I’m sick of the abuse and obvious incivility being unchecked and unanswered. It has been my experience that you confront bullies and push back. The bully finds easier targets to menace. When bullies tribe up then you have a problem and you either tribe up yourself or you get crushed. It is alarming how much hatred your side has for us SJW and to what depths they sink.… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
Don, She answered a question on her facebook with a range that from my perspective and reading is correct. You can parse how you want but the shoes you walk in are the ones you choose to put on. My advice would be to choose to apply her words differently or not apply them at all. If I got upset by whatever wingnut had to say about my political tribe I would be upset all the time. It’s a meh. But I like your first few sentences. I really see this whole Hugo thing as a political culture struggle. And… Read more »
Doug Loss
Guest

Then your “perspective” is completely delusional.

Doug Loss
Guest

So, you don’t understand what “libel” is, among the many other things you’ve demonstrated a misunderstanding of. No surprise there.

SJW75126
Guest

“So, you don’t understand what “libel” is, among the many other things you’ve demonstrated a misunderstanding of. No surprise there.”

Well I am an accountant – not a lawyer. But I can tell you the facebook comment in question is not libel by the wildest stretch of the imagination. To libel someone you have to reference them. You can’t just reference a group with a range and be guilty of libel. It’s silly.

But hey – Tor has lots of money. Go sue them.

Doug Loss
Guest

Don’t understand what libel means, verified.

Nighthawk
Guest

Why is it so difficult to understand that VD is not a Sad Puppy. PG is not a Sad Puppy. You are in a topic titled Sad Puppies are not calling for a boycott.

Shadowdancer
Guest

Frankly all it does is prove that SJW there is too much of a coward to either engage Peter Grant OR Vox. It’s typical of the ASPs; because they’ll go everywhere but the source.

James May
Guest

So. Baptists aren’t an entire racial and demographic group. And neither is that group an ideology. We have the moral high ground and the buying power. You think some daffy feminists power SFF sales?

SJW75126
Guest
I don’t know. I never thought about it. I dispute you have the numbers but that is an interesting question about feminists power SFF sales. Hmm. Again, look at the Goodreads Choice Awards for 2014. In the fantasy category, the winner is Deborah Harkness for the third in her “All Souls Trilogy” (which I read). The runner up is Sanderson and third is Butcher. Harkness got more votes then both combined. For Sci-Fi, “The Martian” was in 1st place and Scalzi’s “Lock In” was second. Again, Harkness got more than both combined. That doesn’t answer your question about feminists (daffy… Read more »
A.Nagy
Guest
I’m pretty sure All Souls Trilogy dominated because it was the big PNR series and it got traction among the literary crowd. I personally didn’t read it because my friends that like PNR more then I do trashed it pretty bad. The Martian won sci-fi because it had hella general appeal, over 1/2 my coworkers have read that book. It’s sci-fi yes but it’s more of a space thriller ala Apollo 13. Lock-in got second, which makes sense I havn’t gotten to it yet but reviews from friends are good, and while Martian pulled in lots of non readers that… Read more »
Angus Trim
Guest
Hi SJ {I dropped the W because you don’t strike me as an SJW} I enjoyed the discussion too. Re: Butcher’s statement, that’s from Eric Flint’s blog, I’m sure. That wound up a roiling to do too. Re voice and recognition: I did say that I might be delusional. I hope you don’t mind my keeping the rest of my counsel to myself Re current politics: I don’t really give a shit for labels {please excuse the language}. About forty years ago, I was a classic liberal with an obsessive love for the First and Second Amendments. Today, though my… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik

Certainly doesn’t help that Beale keeps using the Sad Puppies hashtag instead of launching his own Rabid one.

Synova
Guest
I honest to dog don’t care what he does. People need to grow up instead of having contests to see who can prove their in-group bonafides by being the most easily offended and most vocally upset by Beale. Particularly when they turn around and say that Puppies shouldn’t feel unwelcome in fandom just because they’re routinely vilified and their favorite authors and books are used as examples of what needs to end… like “frontier fiction” or “colonialist fiction” or “manly men doing manly things” or “humans take over the universe HooRah” or a farking barbarian chick in a chain mail… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest

“Because someone made it out to be morally “problematic” to write or enjoy stories about discovering wondrous planets full of interesting aliens or just about any other non-dystopic version of human diaspora.”

Nah. No one has that much power. “The Martian” won the Goodreads choice award for best Sci-Fi. That’s pure rocket ship fiction. James Cameron did a whole movie in 3D about a wondrous planet full of interesting aliens. Your sub genre is there. It just has to compete.

Synova
Guest
There are no aliens in “The Martian.” There is no conquering of Mars in “The Martian.” Of course, it’s not problematic, since all the problematic elements are not there. James Cameron did a whole movie in 3D about a wonderful planet full of interesting aliens *that humans were trying to destroy*. Ie… *dystopic* disapora. Please point to an approved of *NON* dystopic human diaspora published recently. I’d say Lois Bujold did fabulously, though even she didn’t have any aliens. It was also the 1980s when she did it.
SJW75126
Guest
“Please point to an approved of *NON* dystopic human diaspora published recently.” I don’t even know what that means. You did get the part where I am an accountant? Also, I perceive there is a complaint here. What in the world is it? Buy what you like. If enough people agree with you, the market will provide. As to Avatar, some humans were trying to destroy. Some humans were not trying to destroy, yes? We can’t have bad humans? And “The Martian” doesn’t count? Geez. Tuff crowd. If you are a rocket ship kind of SF/F person and “The Martian”… Read more »
Synova
Guest
So… “I don’t understand what that means” is equal to “humans can’t be bad?” “Non-dystopic human diaspora” are all English words with ordinary meanings. No story is interesting without heroes and villains, not usually. Fantasy readerships have grown while science fiction readerships have shrunk. Fantasy allows heroes. Mil-SF allows heroes. Exploration or colonial SF, the sort of gosh-wow look-what-people-can-do SF? It’s hard to find. Not because it’s not popular. People re-read old classics. But there aren’t new modern versions that can be counted upon to deliver. Avatar was about horrible humans with one guy who “went native” and discovered how… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
“Trying to explain this, it’s also generally a safe bet to expect to be entirely misconstrued, after all, people ARE bad, right? Humanity destroys anything it touches, right? Like a cancer on the universe.” I suppose that’s right. Humans have been around for about 150,000 years give or take. We have been reading and writing since about… 5,000 years? The earth is about 4.5B years old. And has gone through somewhere around 5 mass extinction events. The last wiped out the dinosaurs that romped and stomped for some 65 million years. Compare that to man’s puny existence. That last event… Read more »
Synova
Guest
Oh fer gawds sake… I never said I didn’t like the Martian. I said that it wasn’t a counter example to what I was talking about. My premise is simple enough… people who (unlike you who like them) don’t care for an anti-human message don’t buy books that they think have a high risk factor of having an anti-human message. They buy something else that is reliable, like fantasy adventures or military science fiction… both of which I like a lot and both which nearly never have a downer message and both of which seem to sell quite well. So… Read more »
Synova
Guest
If you want to say “it’s just the market” then look at what does sell. Paranormal romance, urban fantasy (some of that dystopic, but people know where to look for it), fantasy, high and low, military science fiction, and a variety of alternate history and humans-deal-with-disaster. If I pick up something in Eric Flint’s Grantville universe, my heroes are going to strive and prevail as they work to ideologically transform Europe into something they can live with. If I pick up Steve Stirling’s Change series the humans are going to find a way to meet every challenge… there is no… Read more »
SJW75126
Guest
Sounds to me you don’t like what you consider anti-human message. OK. And you want rocket ships with exploration and good humans and bad aliens. OK. Same two words – the market. The people got rooked by the cover of the book stuff doesn’t work for me. People have more information about what they are buying then ever. I just picked up Scalzi’s “Lock In” at a good sales price and the cover doesn’t tell me Jack. But the Goodreads Choice Awards, Amazon reviews, and my Sci-Fi group sure do. Cover is meaningless. BTW, it is set in the future.… Read more »
Synova
Guest

At no point did I say “bad aliens.”

At this point I’m done. Thanks for your time.

Don Nutting
Guest
Getting rooked by the book cover doesn’t bother you? I’d say the marketers know exactly what attracts my attention with precision and excellence. Their fish lure covers promising me things gave me a lesson for sure. I wonder how this bait and switch cover stuff led to the downfall of Borders? Do you have to judge what sort of world a thriller or mystery or a western is going to be? The covers usually match right? But when you have never been to Feminazi fantasy land or Planet White Priviledge then you wouldn’t have a clue as to what the… Read more »
Frank Probst
Guest

Jim Cameron made Aliens decades ago. Humans are the good guys; aliens are the bad guys. He’s done it already. With the same actress, in fact.

Synova
Guest

There are a lot of movies where humans are the good guys. Most of the Marvel stuff, actually. Makes TONS of money. Interstellar *didn’t* have an anti-human message. Neither did the um… bah… something Tomorrow with Tom Cruise. NO anti-human message.

Achillea
Guest

“Edge of Tomorrow” By pure coincidence, I actually watched that last night, sitting there with my fingers crossed that it wasn’t going to be yet another case of some Hollywood moron thinking it would be ‘cool’ or ‘edgy’ to have humans secretly behind the Mimics all along. (insert *gasp!* *orchestral sting!*) SPOILER: They’re not. They actually are a malevolent, implacable alien invader, not some diabolical plot by the military-indu