Monster Hunter Nation

Last SP post for the week, to my people, don’t blame Tor

I’ll be offline for the next 48 hours. If you see me on the internet, yell at me to get off. This week has been nuts. I’ve written over 30,000 words of posts, comments, and emails responding to the controversy. I’ve read over 2000 blog comments here, I don’t know how many thousand tweets and FB posts, a slew of emails, and done some interviews. Talking to people–on all sides of the issue–about this is all that I’ve done, all day, every day, this week, from about six in the morning to midnight, and frankly I have argument fatigue and am in danger of severe grumpiness.

So one last quick note, because I saw this coming up in my comments from some of my regulars earlier.

The Sad Puppies campaign isn’t mad at Tor the publishing house. We have nothing against Tor.

In fact, one of our suggestions for novel is by Kevin J. Anderson, and is published by Tor.  One of our nominees is John C. Wright, and he is published by Tor. There are other Tor authors who are secret members of the Evil Legion of Evil. And there are some Tor authors and editors who have reached out to us this week, and who have told the angry mobs to calm the hell down and knock off the asinine defamation, both in public and in private.

Don’t threaten to boycott anybody because of their business associations, because that’s exactly the kind of boorish behavior that’s been done to us.

Don’t post links to a torrent site and suggest that people pirate stuff instead of giving a publishing house money. Do you have any idea how offensive it is to do that on a professional author’s feed?

For those just joining us, if you are wondering where this is coming from, there are a couple of reasons many Sad Puppies supporters are leery of Tor.

There are a few Tor editors who have accused my people of some vile and outlandish things recently, but the Nielsen Haydens are only a couple of the editors there.  Sure, they’ve been insulting, but I’m not going to tar the other editors by association, especially since most of them haven’t said anything, and some have been very nice to us.

Tor.com has posted some asinine stuff on this subject, talked a lot of trash about us, and run some absurd, preachy, social engineering, wannabe literati wankery articles.

However, Tor.com isn’t Tor the publisher. From what I’ve been told by some Tor employees, they are kind of their own thing. Most people don’t know that though. On that note, I don’t know who the marketing person is over there, but seriously, some of the stuff posted on Tor.com is ridiculous and has left a lot of people on this side of fandom with a bad taste in their mouth.

So, to the Sad Puppies supporters, be cool. There are a bunch of good folks over there, good authors and good editors, making good books, and some of them even agree with us.

Now, I’m going to bed until Sunday.

George R. R. Martin responds
Donations to help Shadowdancer's family after tragic loss of their child
Guest
Dave W.
2 years 15 days ago

Will do, Cap’n! Sleep well!

Synova
Guest
2 years 15 days ago

Good night, Larry. Time for a break. Time for family. Time for some spring sunshine.

🙂

Steve Moss
Guest
Steve Moss
2 years 15 days ago

A weekend off sounds like just the thing. And its a soccer tournament weekend for both the kids, so plenty of time for family. 🙂

Recharge the batteries, Larry. And the re-engage to fight the good fight, You rock!

NJRob
Guest
NJRob
2 years 15 days ago

Great job on Ace’s podcast. Enjoyed listening to it. Ace’s book thread is what got me to read your Grimnoir Chronicles.

Keep up the good work.

Kevin H. Evans
Guest
Kevin H. Evans
2 years 15 days ago

I completely agree, let us not be guilty of the abuses committed by the other side. we are the ones who want fiction evaluated for its merits and not for its author, let’s not cut off one foot out of hysterical fanaticism.

have a good weekend Larry, I have to work all weekend, on the mid shift,keeping the skies safe so Larry can fly.

sulla
Guest
sulla
2 years 15 days ago

You’re good people, Larry. Enjoy your weekend.

Guest
2 years 15 days ago

Enjoy the break, and if you didn’t see it. this was my comment responding to you about the link you mentioned.http://monsterhunternation.com/2015/04/09/a-response-to-george-r-r-martin-from-the-author-who-started-sad-puppies/#comment-59785

I apologize for posting it, for any perceived disrespect, and for any offense I have caused. It was not my intent to do so.

Tommy J. Sands
Guest
Tommy J. Sands
2 years 15 days ago

Very Classy Sir!

Tully
Guest
Tully
2 years 15 days ago

Well said. Less tarring with the big brush, eh, folks?

Kent Shambaugh
Guest
2 years 15 days ago

Enjoy your break from the internet. IMO, that is a vital thing to do every now and then.

Dan
Guest
Dan
2 years 15 days ago

My Little Ponies from this week (I know, but have a gander) rips apart the idea of equality. In two episodes. On purpose. A little bit of subversion of our insane modern cult from an unexpected place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DuJ5okgqDM

Watch from 23:10 for a minute or two to get a taste.

Maybe this escaped the attention of the Commissars because they are too dumb to get it.

Jordan S. Bassior
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

I loved “The Cutie Map.” Psychological horror, which that series has never done before. And done well within their S&P,

Austin
Guest
Austin
2 years 15 days ago
Agreed Larry. Tor has great authors. They publish people like Weber and Karen Traviss. They have good stories. And as we have people like Vox, they have people like Hayden. I’ve actually seen something like you’re describing between Tor and Tor.com happen on a large (>1.5 million user) site I’m an admin on. A small group of fans will take over and form a clique to the point that the people they originally formed around just stop using the site. They leave it to moderators or admins – often picked from the same people who make up the cliques –… Read more »
Matthew
Guest
Matthew
2 years 14 days ago
Yeah I’ve heard that Tor.com has very little to do with Tor itself & is written controlled by people with literally no insight into the actual industry. That’s why you get article after article about how there are no positive female protagonists coming out from publishers of science fiction & fantasy, while being connected to a company that does exactly that. Or how a Tor editor came out a couple of years ago to state that on 32% of all manuscripts received were by women & that 90% of genre fiction editors are women. An yet tor.com has article after… Read more »
Reziac
Guest
Reziac
1 year 10 months ago
Guest
Dave W.
1 year 10 months ago

Written by Julie Crisp. Tor cut her loose last month: http://www.thebookseller.com/news/julie-crisp-departs-tor

James May
Guest
2 years 15 days ago
It’s true most people don’t know the difference between the publisher and the web site associate/blog. I often don’t help matters by writing only “Tor.” I do that because if I add the “com” it often turns into a link and goes into spam depending which platform I’m at. I have nothing against the publisher. Even the blog isn’t mostly bad. It just has this persistent presence I feel it needs to get rid of. The fact there is confusion between the two is an example of why they should do that. I honestly don’t know why the publisher allows… Read more »
Guest
tmechanic
2 years 14 days ago

To get T0r.c0m to not show up as a useable link, try substituting 0 the number for o the letter. If this doesn’t work I’ll be really embarrassed.

Sir Brass
Guest
Sir Brass
2 years 12 days ago

Or try “Tor dot com” 🙂

Just A Thought
Guest
Just A Thought
2 years 15 days ago

I watched the very first episode of Startrek TNG last night, and apart from smiling about memories from so long ago, I was shocked.

Picard’s opening encounter with Q – I couldn’t help but think this is just like Puppies VS Social Justice Whiners !

When even Startrek TNG devolves into Puppies VS SJW’s, it’s time for a break.

moop
Guest
moop
2 years 15 days ago

“Do you have any idea how offensive it is to do that on a professional author’s feed?”
Using “too offensive” as a reason for anti-sjws not to do something is kind of asinine, and I’m sure not all authors think IP is sacred, because, you know, it isn’t.

People have the option to support works if they want, and that is reality.

Personally when an artist pisses me off I don’t even give them the honor of taking up space on my hard drive. I just take exception to the fallacy of righteous indignation when it comes to IP issues.

Doug Northcote
Guest
Doug Northcote
2 years 15 days ago

World of tanks is calling you sir. Or, or, or whatever other game to relax.

Either way, go relax bud!

Pugmak
Guest
Pugmak
2 years 15 days ago

Musical interlude time!

on youtube, search up Utopian Riot – Like it’s 1984

Good song well sung, as they say.

TallDave
Guest
2 years 15 days ago

Hey, those 30,000 words belonged in a new book that I could be reading by now!

Daddy_Warpig
Guest
2 years 15 days ago

Enjoy your break. It’s well deserved.

I’ll keep your advice in mind. I long ago swore off Tor books because of Tor dot com’s SJW arrogance. Haven’t bought one since, and I buy a lot of books. (Too many to read, truth told.)

Not a boycott, didn’t announce it or campaign on it, just stopped buying. Better things to do with my money.

I’ll reconsider that position. Tor might want to reconsider their support of a site that’s making them look bad, though. (Including the NH’s.)

Again, enjoy your rest.

Cheers! : )

RealityObserver
Guest
RealityObserver
2 years 14 days ago
I do buy Tor books. But only visited the website once – and never again, but not so much because of the SJW garbage on it. Because it is SO POORLY DESIGNED. I foolishly thought it was the place to look for when the next Weber Armageddon book would be out – wandered around, completely lost, for a good 15 minutes without even finding any evidence that they had books by someone named David Weber. And, sorry, when the first thing you see is what is on there right now – well, I figure that this is probably NOT the… Read more »
Sir Brass
Guest
Sir Brass
2 years 12 days ago

Tor the publisher publishes some GREAT authors and books, like David Weber (yes, that Weber, whose Honorverse books are published by Baen). Tor publishes his EXCELLENT Safehold novels (now if only an editor at Baen would tell him to do with the Honorverse books what he’s doing with Safehold, I wouldn’t be so frustrated with the guy), so that makes the publisher A-OKAY in my book.

I get the distinction between the website and the publisher and so should everyone else before they stop giving Tor their business. We shouldn’t be doing to Tor what SJW’s do to Baen.

Expendable Henchman
Guest
Expendable Henchman
2 years 14 days ago
Larry, If you’re reading this before Sunday: GET OFF!!! I’m still pretty pissed that it was necessary to waste 30K words on SJW dipshits. LC could have written about Melvin Skype DDOSing Rush until they agree to put him on the air. Then he transfers the call to Owen, asleep in 3 am Moscow. Or a battered, bleeding Agent Franks with half his face burned to the bone by a swooping acid vomiting Other, plucks a rider from a passing motorcycle, asking him “You’re not colorblind, are you?” Or Tom Strange posing disquieting questions for an uncharacteristically pudgy Libertarian Space… Read more »
HOLLY
Guest
HOLLY
2 years 14 days ago
Larry, I am one (on Brad’s FB page) who has said I will boycott Tor WITH EXCEPTIONS: If works are recommended by someone whose opinion I respect. For instance, I won’t boycott John C. Wright. My reason for doing this is seeing that Moshe Feder, a Tor editor, is going to No Award EVERYTHING on the SP3 and RP slates, INCLUDING the works of Tor’s own writer, Mr. Wright! His own client! That is despicable and unprofessional. And isn’t PNH saying the same thing? So in the future, if I see a book that looks like something I would enjoy,… Read more »
HOLLY
Guest
HOLLY
2 years 14 days ago

Just to clarify:
I am completely aware that SP3 or (1 or 2) have nothing against Tor.
I would have had no problem buying a book with no recommendation from Tor or any publisher, as long as it looked interesting to me.
This is my personal decision and has nothing to do with SP, only that SP3 has exposed what Tor is willing to do to their own writers. And I have a big problem with that.

Karen Miller
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Enjoy the break, Larry. And, again, heartfelt thanks for standing up and taking the blows.

Fruitbat44
Guest
Fruitbat44
2 years 14 days ago

Mr Coreiga – I hope that this weekend is just what you need.

“Be cool.” Who says Larry Correiga can’t do words of wisdom?

Dyrewulf
Guest
Dyrewulf
2 years 14 days ago

10-4 – Tor.com was getting a bit odd on FaceBook – I hadn’t realized until now that there was a disconnect between the two entities.

Harley Ray
Guest
Harley Ray
2 years 14 days ago
I’m one of those who read sf/heroic fiction/weird fantasy books from the late 60s and then lost all interest in the mid-80s. I did attend a few V-Cons in Vancouver (Canada) in the late 70s but otherwise didn’t have much contact with fandom. My reading interest turned to non-fiction history and I pretty much ignored any fantastic fiction. The closest I came in recent times was reading (and seeing the movie) The Life of Pi by Yann Martel (he’s a local author). Over the years I’ve become more politically conservative and found an article about Sad Puppies on one of… Read more »
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

You’re taking the next 48 hours off for the World of Tanks 4th Anniversary…. Aren’t you?

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

He’s playing a Maus:it’s the only ride he fits in.

Mike Neal
Guest
Mike Neal
2 years 13 days ago

LOL!!!

I can *SO* see that in my mind’s eye… Larry standing in the TC’s hatch, waving the Tetsubo Of Doom™…

ravenshrike
Guest
ravenshrike
2 years 12 days ago

“Drive me closer so I can hit them with my tetsubo” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

Guest
2 years 11 days ago

I wonder what Tier a Bolo is….

Michael Kitchen
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Larry,

Your Rx:

200 rds/5.56 downrange /200 yds, 1 per day for 2 days.
50 rds/9mm on 10 spt /50 ft, 2 per day for 2 days.

Repeat if necessary. Call me Monday morning if this does not provide relief.

Jeff LaSala
Guest
Jeff LaSala
2 years 14 days ago

Sometimes Tor.com lets people with absolutely no social agenda, like me, write some articles. Except perhaps agenda to spread the word about cool sci-fi/fantasy media or, as his more often than not been the case, defending cool sci-fi/fantasy media against the critics.

And I wouldn’t just say sometimes. Your average post over there is harmless and interesting, if not for everyone. But I know sometimes some posters will grate on nerves over here (and abroad). But by and large Tor.com covers a lot of ground; not all of it is caustic!

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago

Yes, the vast majority of articles at TorCom have nothing to do with SJW propaganda. They have plenty of cool articles about assorted genre geekery, and I really enjoy their reread and rewatch series, and also Jo Walton’s articles (the breadth of her reading is amazing, and she really loves good stories: each time I read one of her articles I want to run to the store and buy the book she is talking about, but I just can’t read at that pace). Nowadays she is writing articles less often, unfortunately.

John R. Ellis
Guest
John R. Ellis
2 years 14 days ago

The same Jo Walton who has no qualms about lying about the content of a book if she thinks the author is a bad person? And all too often “bad”=different from Jo?

That Jo Walton?

Not a fan.

Stephen J.
Guest
Stephen J.
2 years 14 days ago

When did she lie about the content of a book? That seems a foolish tactic if deliberate, given how eidetic so many fans are at committing books to memory. Is it not likelier she simply stopped paying attention to something she wasn’t liking and later misremembered it?

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 13 days ago

That’s a pretty serious charge. Have a link?

James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
I agree the vast majority is neutral, but “caustic” is a funny word for supremacist racism and sexual bigotry. “Caustic” is war or no war, abortion, socialist enterprises, etc. Those are legitimate topics whether I like them or not. No one makes me read that stuff if I don’t like it, but racial incitement has a way of reaching out and touching people in harmful ways just for being born. You’d think folks so on board with “anti-racism” and “social justice” would grasp that. I honestly feel the same way clicking into TorCom as I do a white supremacist site.… Read more »
Differently
Guest
Differently
2 years 14 days ago
Especially since women in SFF have achieved (in some cases) greater financial success then almost any of the men writing in the field (Rowling, Collins, Meyer, Rice, Cabot). They’re all worth 50 million or more, according to celebritynetworth. According to Larry, they’re A List authors. They’ve all written financially successful SFF. In the critical realm, Ursula Le Guin got shortlisted for a Pulitzer Prize with a collection of short stories. What male SFF writer has managed that? When they talk about other ethnicities being underrepresented in SFF, I am more inclined to agree. But as Larry has said before, the… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

There is no such thing as “underrepresented” in a hobby. Saying that implies every hobby the world over has an ideal goal of a percentage of the racial/sexual population or it is broken and needs to be fixed. Only a madman would even imagine such a thing.

Differently
Guest
Differently
2 years 14 days ago
True enough. It merely indicates that there might be more people who would like SFF in that demographic then currently do if they were exposed to it more. If groups are underrepresented because they’ve seen SFF and don’t feel like trying it, that’s fine. If they haven’t seen SFF stuff yet, they are a potential market for it. Basically, if people just aren’t interested in a hobby like reading SFF, that’s cool. Their choice. But I think a lot of times that under represented groups haven’t hear about SFF (or any other hobby). Therefore, if you want to increase participation… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Well, how’s this for a campaign?

“BLACK PEOPLE, YOU JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE MISSING.”

Suburbanbanshee
Guest
Suburbanbanshee
2 years 14 days ago
African-American fans are often reading and buying their own thing, and just don’t bother to tell the rest of us. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has a book coming out this fall, and it’s a Sherlockian pastiche about Mycroft Holmes. He’s apparently been into Holmes as long as he’s been into martial arts and Japanese flicks, or longer, but he just wasn’t showing up at Sherlockian scion club meetings in LA. Anime and Klingon fandom actually do manage to attract a fair number of black fans, but it’s still only a tiny proportion of the African-American people who love sf/f and related hobbies… Read more »
Differently
Guest
Differently
2 years 14 days ago

@ James May
I’m pretty sure there are better possible slogans, but sure, that’s the idea. 🙂
@SuburbanBanshee
Yeah, there are a ton of people who like SFF who don’t know about the Hugos. Letting them know about it is an awesome idea.
And yeah, fans are only going to stay if you do awesome things.
Marketing to groups that haven’t been exposed to written SFF should be the publishers job, though. Maybe we’ll see Tor launch the campaign James May suggested. 🙂

Achillea
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

If they think SFF fandom is white, they should see geocaching.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan
2 years 14 days ago

I used to make Tor.com a daily site, but I did see an agenda and the moderation tended to be heavy handed and used to further that agenda. I’m willing to believe not all writers and not all mods, but the amount of distaste I have over how I’ve seen people treated for polite disagreement makes it hard to go back, even for the snippets from authors I like. Unfortunately, it will likely take a lot to win me back.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 12 days ago

Speaking of: Jonathan Maberry wrote a piece about special-ops facing fantastical foes. Guess what series got a positive shout-out? 😉

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2015/04/five-books-in-which-special-ops-encounter-very-weird-things#comments

Patrick Chester
Guest
Patrick Chester
2 years 14 days ago

Okay….
*sigh*
*shuts off Geo-Tel*

(…and in case the above inspires someone to get all hysterical: No that was not serious.)

T.L. Knighton
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Take it easy later. You deserve a rest.

We got this.

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 14 days ago
I’ve got the same attitude toward TorCom as I do Vox Day’s site: There’s some good stuff over there, even if it is occasionally bad for my blood pressure. 😉 That said: The fact that we’re even having this discussion should be a clue to the Nielsen-Haydens and their allies at Tor that they’re doing immense damage to the Tor brand, especially when they go out of their way to attack Tor authors for the crime of being liked by wrongfans having wrongfun. It’s not just the Hugos that are in danger of being burned down, at this point…and the… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
This is such a funny thing because it is so simple. Now, I realize a lot of SP are angry about a range of things, but it’s my opinion the crucial element is the last 6 years of racial incitement. Take that out and there is no SP. If I’m right, think about that: racial incitement and SFF. What the hell does the former have to do with the latter? I’m telling you – ditch these daffy feminists and the entire divide goes away overnight. I just read Abigail Nussbaum’s utterly racist post about the Mixon/RH thing. Multiply Nussbaum by… Read more »
Differently
Guest
Differently
2 years 14 days ago

It is perfectly happy in its ghetto and seeks the approval of no one.

Some fans want there to be more fans, some fans enjoy interacting with other fans.
Just because we’re perfectly happy just to enjoy our hobby without outside approval doesn’t mean we don’t want more people involved.
Also, some hobbies do require multiple people in order to happen (chess, sports, etc.).
I don’t think I disagree with you, I just wanted to point out that many of us enjoy being fans together.

Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 14 days ago

Explains why PNH is leaving most of the heavy lifting (smearing) to his wife, doesn’t it?

And why that other Tor editor (gah, can’t recall the name) piped down after a day or so of smears.

*shrug* If I see that their ideology leaks into their job at Tor and Tor is okay with that, well, there are plenty of publishers out there willing to take my money.

Doctor Locketopus
Guest
Doctor Locketopus
2 years 14 days ago

“And why that other Tor editor (gah, can’t recall the name) piped down after a day or so of smears.”

Moshe Feder.

Shawn
Guest
Shawn
2 years 12 days ago

yep. His FB page has been nothing but SP slander since the slate got announced. He’s debated campaigning “no award” even though his own authors were supported by SP.

So apparently agenda is more important than the well-being of his authors. That seems unfortunate, given they include Brandon Sanderson and Steven Erikson.

Pogonip
Guest
Pogonip
2 years 14 days ago
Damn it, Larry, get off the Internet! You won’t see this, since you’ll be off the Internet, but I hope someone mentions to you that I was impressed with your reply to George R. R. Martin. It wasn’t funny as you are when you get on a good rant (“…ya fucking goofball…”) but it was logical and also moving. I felt your embarrassment and anger at the calls your wife was getting from people worried you’d taken to beating her. (One hopes she replied with something like “No, he’s still terrified of me–ya fucking goofball.”). You defended yourself and your… Read more »
LR Black
Guest
LR Black
2 years 14 days ago

During Hugo nominations last year I real ALL the Correia books, thinking that it would be unfair to judge #3 without background. This year I will likely read ALL the nominees and judge as usual. Warning — I DO quit reading in the middle if I am bored. I do vote for only a few if that is how I judge the works.

But I think I’m fair, and I expect to be the same way no matter what the controversy.

Take a good rest and come back out full of energy.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 14 days ago

Well, last weekend, after the Nielsen Haydens had been attacking friends of mine online and spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories, I bought Words of Radiance.

Why? Because I support Brandon Sanderson. I love his work. I won’t punish him because his editor, Moshe Feder, has been posting vicious attacks against SP on Facebook. I support the author.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 14 days ago

The other threads are getting too big, so I’ll drop this here:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/04/11/media-drops-the-ball-on-hugoawards-sadpuppies/

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago
As someone who has not participated in the Sad Puppies campaign and is not really comfortable with the idea of the Hugos dominated by slates, be it one or several competing ones, but who has sympathy for your dislike about the SJW-led nastiness that has been going on in the last few years in fandom, I would like to ask you: What is the strategy of the Sad Puppies? Will there be a new slate every year for the foreseeable future? Will it be changed for a longer list of recommendations (i.e. clearly more than 5, which is what makes… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

We wanted to goad SJWs into making the mistake of outright vote-buying. Now we will bring the United Arab Emirates money into it, because they hate feminists.

If the Hugos fall, all of Islam will fall.

Suburbanbanshee
Guest
Suburbanbanshee
2 years 14 days ago

Heh! James, you forgot to mention the financial support of the Gnomes of Zurich, and the hackers from the hidden Antarctic city of giant starfish!

When do fans have a grand strategy? As usual with fannish initiatives, everybody will mess around and do funny things. We will have to keep making our point until other people actually listen to what we are saying, and enjoy the new freedom to read cool books.

And then, it will all turn out to have been somebody else’s idea all along, and that everybody always agreed with us. 😉

Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 14 days ago
Dunno if this qualifies as “outright vote-buying,” but… “And to my readers — If you can afford it, I encourage you to buy a membership to WorldCon and become part of fandom. If you cannot afford it… I will buy a supporting membership to WorldCon for ten people who cannot afford it. I am in no way constraining how that member nominates or votes. All I ask is that you join the conversation.” Oh, and one of the *nominees* has also anonymously given her another $400 for “scholarships.” I am… skeptical that, after talking about Vox Day as the devil… Read more »
Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 14 days ago

Oh, that was Mary Robinette Kowal, BTW.

Differently
Guest
Differently
2 years 14 days ago
I’m pretty sure James May is joking, but I could be wrong. A SP4 is in the works. Kate the Impaler will be running it. It is unlikely Sad Puppies will stop unless everyone gets really bored. It is possible the slate will include more than five slots next year; the idea has been thrown around. Other ideas that have been discussed: Splitting into multiple slates, or reaching out to other fandoms and helping them start Wheel of Time like campaigns to get their works on the ballot. Lowering the supporting membership cost to get enough people voting to dilute… Read more »
The Phantom
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
Victory has already been achieved, according to Larry. His point was to demonstrate the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the SJW crowd by getting -any- outsider nominated and simply observing SJW behavior in response. AKA poke the ant hill and watch what happens. SJWs have not disappointed, three years running. They’ve gone nuts every single time. If the Hugo awards devolve into nothing more than SF/F fans kicking sand in SJW faces for five or six years, and them having an ongoing temper tantrum… I’d be open to that, personally. The idea that me just voicing my preferences in reading… Read more »
AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago

But you have to take into account that not all of the people who are angry and want to vote “No award” are SJWs. Some are angry because they feel that you have gamed the rules by basically forming a political party to concentrate your vote. In an election where the rest of the vote is disperse because it’s a literary prize, a voting bloc gets a huge advantage. That’s something that does not break the rules but it’s against the spirit of the Hugo prize, and many WorldCon members feel very strongly about that.

Joe in PNG
Guest
Joe in PNG
2 years 14 days ago

And has been pointed out, multiple times, the current clique in charge has been pretty much doing that for a while. The whole thing has gone stagnant, with stories that cater to the taste of a small few.

Daveon
Guest
Daveon
2 years 12 days ago

Please tell me when they were doing this and what is the specific evidence apart from that bloody Dinosaur story, I DIDN’T LIKE IT EITHER, ok?

I didn’t vote for it.

But gods help me, I am bored of MilSF and bloody monsters, sparkly vampires, ‘realistic’ urban setting with magic in them.

Give me some original SF please!

The Phantom
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
Daveon said: “Please tell me when they were doing this and what is the specific evidence apart from that bloody Dinosaur story, blah blah blah.” If you remember last year or the year before there was great celebration in the land because there were no “straight White males” on the ballot. That. “But gods help me, I am bored of MilSF and bloody monsters, sparkly vampires, ‘realistic’ urban setting with magic in them.” I’m terribly sorry that my tastes do not conform to yours… but they don’t. For my part I’m sick to death of non-binary gender intersectionalist message-fic, picking… Read more »
Doctor Locketopus
Guest
Doctor Locketopus
2 years 14 days ago

It’s been noted multiple times that John Scalzi has racked up more Hugo nominations in ten years than Arthur C. Clarke got in fifty.

How do you suppose that happened? Was it based on Scalzi’s “literary” chops? His originality?

Or could (whisper) politics have been involved?

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago
I think it’s very clear that Red Shirts would not have been nominated -much less won the Hugo- if it had been signed by anyone other than John Scalzi. In my opinion the reason (and the reason for his many nominations) is that he has a good number of fans and also his blog is very popular. He also has the right politics. So yes, in a way politics was involved. In particular the nomination process is very vulnerable, because the vote is so disperse. It’s true that many unsavory things were going on at the Hugos. I think that… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 14 days ago

Well, he encouraged his fans to vote, too.

Daveon
Guest
Daveon
2 years 12 days ago

AG – actually that’s the other way around. The nomination process is very vulnerable, the vote is more robust as you get to rank people. But crap novels winning the Hugo isn’t exactly new. Both 1991 and 1992 were dreadful (IMO).

Even without a lot of people planning to No Award slate candidates, I think Leckie would have won again – I wouldn’t have voted for her this time, but that’s another story.

zuk
Guest
zuk
2 years 13 days ago
And has been pointed out several times, the proposed titles were compiled from a call for favorites among SP supporters. IE. they represent the ‘pre-voting’ if you will, of a large number of people. Also, SP has repeatedly asked voters to READ ALL THE TITLES before voting, NOT to just vote the slate. And finally, to vote, we had to buy memberships, so now WE ARE THE VOTERS and our votes are just as ‘legitimate’ as any other, including those who bought memberships before the campaign. The SJWs seem to be MOST upset that more people are voting, making it… Read more »
Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 13 days ago

And speaking of “read all the titles before voting,” I just finished Jim Butcher’s “Skin Game” this afternoon. Awesome book. The man can write.

And I can’t believe I haven’t read anything by Butcher before now. Damn, I’ve been missing out…

Also finished Jonathan Maberry’s “Predator One” this weekend as well, and it too was excellent. Let me be the first to submit Maberry’s name for consideration for SP4…

Now I just need to re-read Marko Kloos’ “Terms of Enlistment” and “Lines of Departure” before the third book in that series comes out later this month. 🙂

Lea
Guest
Lea
2 years 12 days ago

And I can’t believe I haven’t read anything by Butcher before now. Damn, I’ve been missing out…

You are so lucky! Now you have 13-14 novels to plow through. That is like my favorite thing in life – finding a new author who has done a series that will keep me busy for weeks.

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 12 days ago

But Lea, I can’t *afford* 13 or 14 more novels right now, even at used or Kindle pricing…

*sob*

Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 12 days ago

Library. Then buy them when you can afford it and read them again. 🙂

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 12 days ago

Problem there is, you have to give library books *back.*

😛

Plus, I just moved to a relatively rural area with a crappy public library system. Although given Butcher’s popularity, they ought to have at least a few of the series…

Joe in PNG
Guest
Joe in PNG
2 years 14 days ago

Whatever happens, we’ve won.

-If the SJW’s have their way, and were able to kick out all the Wrongthink Wrongfans, the Hugos will collapse into utter irrelevance.

-If we have our way, the pool of voters gets way too big for any one clique to dominate.

The Phantom
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Larry “won” the first year when some non-SJWs managed to get on the ballot and the SJWs went Epically Berserk on the interwebz.

Winning like a boss is what that was. SP2 was just rubbing salt in the wound. This year, SP3 we’re using brillo soaked in salt and vinegar.

Next year we use power equipment. We’re talking air drive, baby.

Synova
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
AG, every year so far it’s been completely different. Different goals. Different outlook. Different strategies. Next year (or so I’ve heard) this goes to Kate. Kate is, more or less in her own words, a foul mouthed Australian geologist that didn’t take shit from men on-site doing manly geology things and isn’t the least bit inclined to take any shit from glittery hoo-ha obsessed Americans now that she lives here. So, essentially… it will be Kate’s show. Now, I suggest a logo rework so that next year the Puppies on the banner are all girl puppies. Maybe Power Puff Puppies…… Read more »
AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago

Thanks for the responses, everyone. If the slate is a longer recommendation list rather than 5 per category I could get on board with this.

Synova
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Don’t just get on board. Get involved. If you happen across something this year that you think it excellent, make sure you let people know.

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 13 days ago

THIS^^^^^^^^^

The ‘Sad Puppies Slate’ is what a buncha people said “hey, dis is cool, you should read dis” about.

Not everyone agrees with everyone else on what ‘dis’ is. Hence, individual votes all over the place.

Frylock
Guest
Frylock
2 years 14 days ago
I am very liberal, but never restrict what I read based on an author’s politics. That would hurt me, not them. I’ve never been to any kind of con and am no insider, but always knew the Hugos were voted on by people at the Worldcon, which is small subset of SF fans. I just learned about the suporting membership option and purchased one so I can vote. I’ve read a lot of excellent short fiction in 2014 and I’m sure some of those stories got knocked off the ballot by SP/RP. If any of the SP/RP nominees are at… Read more »
The Phantom
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
Larry, I agree. Hopefully you’re not cheating by reading this. 🙂 Overall, I find the idea of shunning particular publishers and authors because of the political shenanigans of SJWs to be idiotic. Its what SJWs do. I leave the BS to them and read whatever catches my fancy as usual. Example, even though John Scalzi is a titanic SJW dick on the internet, I still enjoyed Old Man’s War. I bought the whole series. Its good, fun reading. I also enjoyed Charles Stross’s Singularity Sky, despite the fact that he is another titanic internet SJW dick. Don’t care if the… Read more »
Tarl
Guest
Tarl
2 years 14 days ago

That’s what libraries are for, chief. They let you enjoy the book without rewarding the titanic dick.

DaveP.
Guest
DaveP.
2 years 14 days ago

Abebooks can be quite useful too. I haven’t put a dime in Stross’ pockets in years, but I still get to read his books.

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 14 days ago
I sort of agree, but…It’s hard to enjoy reading a book by someone who has nothing but utter contempt for you, especially if you paid for it with your own money. That’s one reason I quit reading Stephen King, for example. It wasn’t because King wears his lefty politics on his sleeve, but because at some point he started rubbing it into the faces of his fans and mocking anyone who doesn’t share his beliefs. (It didn’t help that King became too big to edit, and ran out of ideas about twenty years ago.) Scalzi? Screw him. I made the… Read more »
The Phantom
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
I liked Old Man’s War. Its pretty good. I also liked Agent To The Stars because its pretty silly. Of course I didn’t find out that Scalzi is a dick until later, so I didn’t have that hanging over my reading. Charles Stross started Singularity Sky with a rain of cellphones, and how am I going to turn down a rain of freakin’ cell phones, right? Of course lately he’s been going Full Rampant Atheist in his Laundry series, which I find very message-fic-y. Also when writers deny the existence of any kind of God/Gods/whathaveyou in their stories, I find… Read more »
Stephen J.
Guest
Stephen J.
2 years 14 days ago

Thank you for all your work, Mr C, and have a great rest.

trackback

[…] “Last SP post for the week, to my people, don’t blame Tor” –April 11 […]

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

But according to the Laws of Social Justice Warfare, should we not inflict suffering on the innocent as well as the guilty to prove how committed we are? I’d had to behave in a fashion they find abnormal…

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

James May: Well, how’s this for a campaign?

“BLACK PEOPLE, YOU JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU’RE MISSING.”

How about:

‘THIS WORLD SUCKS? TRY ANOTHER!”

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

James May, I suppose, ‘IN THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS, EVERYONE HAS AN EBT CARD” is quite the direction you’re looking to take this, am I right?

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

“NOT” quite the direction…

Sir Brass
Guest
Sir Brass
2 years 12 days ago

I thought they eliminated money in the Federation by the 24th century 😉 (just forget DS9 and pressed latinum…)

Feather Blade
Guest
Feather Blade
2 years 12 days ago

Maa… I think the Ferengi just haven’t discovered the joys of compound interest and derivatives yet (the regressive metal-standard so-and-so’s)

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

“Doug Northcote, on April 11, 2015 at 4:53 am said:

World of tanks is calling you sir. Or, or, or whatever other game to relax.”

In his spare time, Larry dresses up as an Atlas in Mechwarrior Online

Lawrence Person
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

I meant to ask just how one joins the Evil League of Evil. After all, I’ve already paid my dues in the SJW wars…

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 14 days ago

If you haven’t already, check out #SadPuppies on Twitter. The GamerGaters (who, for the last time, were NOT involved before) have taken up the cause during the past week. LOTS of support.

We’re not alone.

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 14 days ago

One of my favorite blog comments of the week was the GamerGater in one of Larry’s previous threads, who observed that if the SJWs kept trying to drag GG into Sad Puppies, they’d “find themselves giving a Hugo to a Halo novel.”

Keep on pokin’ that bear with a stick…

😛

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 14 days ago

The Puppies have been adopted! 🙂

James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

Hey, I actually liked some of the Halo novels!
I’m not sure if they merit a Hugo on their own, but they beat the Dinosaur short all hollow.
Greg Bear’s Primordium series was fine with me, and Karen Traviss’ stuff was fairly well done, although the Flood one needed a more attentive editor.
But mostly, if you don’t like a given series / work, leave it alone and buy another. There’s plenty of decent SF&F out there for everyone!

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 13 days ago

I would support a Hugo category for Best Tie-In. Sure, there’s crappy tie-ins, but every once in a while you get something worthwhile.

Craig
Guest
Craig
2 years 13 days ago

And because they are often written under constraints, I do think it can be fair to judge an author’s ability to write tie-ins against other tie-ins, instead of against people writing in their own universes.

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago
Mary Robinette Kowal is offering to buy supporting membership to WorldCon for people who cannot afford them. She offered 10, but since then other people (Ellen Klage and several anonymous Hugo nominees, at least some of which were in the SP list) have joined the offer, so now there are 55 memberships. Kowal has said that since those memberships will be able to nominate next year she’ll refuse any nomination she may get in 2016. I can afford a membership, but if anyone here would like to have one but can’t for economical reasons I think that it’s only fair… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

“Earlier this year, I was on a panel about inclusion in fandom at a different convention. One of our panelists insisted that fandom had always been welcoming to everyone, adding that she preferred the colorblind approach, welcoming everyone as individuals. Mary Robinette Kowal beat me to the response by 0.6 seconds. Mary stood up and asked everyone in the audience who was white to raise their hands.” – gender abolitionist Jim Hines.

I would’ve straight up told anyone who talked to me like that to go fuck themselves.

Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 14 days ago

Could always raise a hand with only one finger extended. Would be the polite way to handle it.

James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago

Politeness was out the door after that remark. I’ll tell you what. Go into a black bar and go ask everyone who’s black to raise their hands after you racially lecture them and see how fast you get your ass kicked.

Synova
Guest
2 years 13 days ago
I’d caution against using Jim Hines as a faithful transmitter of the general tenor or point someone else was trying to make. For one thing, the exchange reads as a classic opinion multiplier… so and so agrees with me, etc. In my mind at least the exchange seems entirely non sequitor… what does one have to do with the other? Maybe it made sense in the larger context but *because* it seems so divorced from the statement it was meant to be a response to. Now… if we want to make a point it’s not the number of white people… Read more »
Lea
Guest
Lea
2 years 12 days ago

Raise your hands if you are white? They couldn’t just…look?

Tully
Guest
Tully
2 years 13 days ago

Whether she recuses herself or not, that ploy is the equivalent of buying drinks and lunch for voters in bars on election day. Saying you’re not telling them how to vote is disingenuous when they know which side is paying the tab.

The Phantom
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

This is hilarious! The SPs are accused of slate voting and all manner of underhanded skulduggery, and here’s MRK coming out and openly offering to BUY VOTES like its all kinds of ok to do that.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve seen in this yet. You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago
This is a comment I made in GRRM’s latest post, and GRRM’s response. My comment: “I did not take part in the Sad Puppies campaign and I do not vote in the Hugos. However, I sympathize with several of the things they defend. I disagree with the precise manner in which they have conducted their Hugo campaign, although I’m starting to think they did not expect in any way to sweep the nominations like that, and that the poor voting system is more to blame for that (a voting system that gives 100% representation to about 10% or 20% of… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 14 days ago
Baseball players do not learn to respect each other, they learn to respect the rules so that all may benefit by those rules and learn what personal responsibility is. When a people speak a shared language with consistent definitions, they can live with each other quite happily. Within feminist power-privilege punching up theory, it is a stacked deck against men, whites and heterosexuals. In short it is group defamation of the same sort as anti-Semitism and it is also a form of cheating. It is a constant shifting of the rules so that one team always wins. There should be… Read more »
AG
Guest
AG
2 years 14 days ago
I agree, and part of the problem is that there is a culture that allows the SJWs’ abuse without anyone but the victims to speak up against it. Bullies on one side receive full social disapproval, but bullies on the other seem to have carte blanche. Those moderates who do not engage in that behavior routinely look the other way, I don’t know if it’s because they are oblivious or don’t care or are scared that saying the wrong thing will make them into outcasts too. I have the hope that these discussions about SP will make some decent people… Read more »
Doug Loss
Guest
Doug Loss
2 years 13 days ago

When you say “moderates” here, I silently translate as either “fellow-travelers” or “cowards.”

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 13 days ago
The hilarious thing about GRRM going after Vox Day – to the point that he’s demanding everybody on our side ritually denounce him for his badthink – is that he actually thinks Vox gives a damn about what anybody else thinks about him. Just how many times has the SJW wing of SF/F demanded Vox be shunned, now? And how did the previous attempts work out? The other hilarious thing is that GRRM apparently thinks “our” flaming asshole – that would be Vox – is somehow the equal of the Left’s *army* of flaming assholes. I’m sure Vox thinks it’s… Read more »
Synova
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

It’s sort of like… lets put out this fire by pouring gas on it.

Yeah…

That’ll work.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 12 days ago

The only side Vox is on is his own.

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 13 days ago

The thing is, I think we need to step away – WAY AWAY – from *all* sorts of litmus tests and denunciations that we apply to fellow fans in terms of awards, etc.

SP don’t hold trufans to denounce NKJ/KTB/RH.

Trufans don’t hold SP to denounce Asimov/VD/whoever else.

We stop all this, let social groups include or exclude people as they like, and judge work based on the work. Not the gender of the author, or the religion in the work, or the skin color of the protagonist, or who else likes the work. Our own judgement of the work.

Wes S.
Guest
Wes S.
2 years 13 days ago

The Left is always demanding that we denounce somebody on our side, on one pretext or another (usually bogus) if we all just want to get along. But the promised comity and respect from them never materializes, does it? They just go and demand we denounce somebody else.

As Lincoln once said of Ulysses S. Grant after the latter was criticized for “excessive” battle casualties leading Union troops: “I cannot spare this man, he fights.”

That’s pretty much the way I look at Vox.

James May
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

This is not a he-said, she-said. Prior to Racefail in 2009 SJWs assert that for 100 years there was a thing that acted like an ideological women-hating KKK.

That is false.

On the other hand, SJWs are in fact all on the same page with a racial and sexual feminist ideology with very specific linguistics, views and goals.

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 13 days ago
Well, while what you say it’s true, I personally do not mind saying that I don’t like VD and that he doesn’t represent me. It’s the truth after all, and if it’s going to make them feel better I don’t mind saying so. But it’s also true that this is not the way to deal with VD. He couldn’t care less how much he is disliked or hated. By turning him into their nemesis they only make him bigger. They should just ignore him. Yes, even after he gets nominated with his Rabid Puppies. Just don’t vote for him and… Read more »
Jordan S. Bassior
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

In fact, the SJW’s are probably going to massively increase Vox Day’s sales figures.

Tully
Guest
Tully
2 years 13 days ago

Yes. That. Exactly.

Alex
Guest
Alex
2 years 12 days ago
Yes, and he also said re: Jemisin: “I was not at Wiscon, and did not hear that speech. If your quotes are accurate, I am very disappointed. If you have read my own posts, you know I disagree with all of that.” And regarding Arthur Chu: “I don’t know Arthur Chu. From what you say, I don’t want to.” These are very mild semi-condemnations. They cost him nothing and will not affect any future interactions with such people. Nor will he issue a pointed or public call for such to change their behavior or be shunned, as he did with… Read more »
James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 13 days ago
In a way, I feel sorry (slightly) for GRRM; he apparently thinks the SJW are his friends, will make excuses for them, will try to get along with them, only mildly condemn the most egregious examples of their misbehavior …. But there will come a day when he says something they don’t like. Then they will call for his ouster from Trufandom(c), boycott his works, call for the MinTruth to airbrush his picture out of the archives, and so forth. They will use him as long as he is convenient, and at the first inkling of thoughtcrime turn on him.
AG
Guest
AG
2 years 13 days ago
Nah, GRRM is too high profile. Society will not condemn him on a baseless accusation by SJWs, and they know this. He is untouchable, unless he does or says something really horrible, which he is not going to do because he is a decent person.. But it’s true that he is completely blind when it comes to SJWs, like many people with his political ideas. He is so used to think that they are they good guys, the ones that fight against bigots, that he is unable to really look at them and see what they do and say. They… Read more »
SDN
Guest
SDN
2 years 13 days ago

I’m sure Brandon Eich thought that too.

Dusty Ayres
Guest
Dusty Ayres
1 year 7 months ago
AG
Guest
AG
2 years 13 days ago
I think by now it’s clear that GRRM is not going to approve my last comment, probably because he does not want his site to have anything to do with criticism towards John Scalzi, so I may as well post it here: I don’t intend to pick on just one person in the mob, but let’s try to illustrate why it’s difficult for us to take part in fandom in a normal manner, when this viciousness is so widespread, and not only from anonymous fans. It’s business as usual by now. If we go to the same convention, can we… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 13 days ago
It’s very easy to hurt your career in SFF. You only have to be white, straight and a male. By virtue of that ALONE, Lightspeed and Tor writers will not review you. There will be calls to “de-white” one’s library and not read you for one year. You will be endlessly and daily demonized as a group. You cannot be on all-white, all-male discussion panels or all-white anthologies. Other authors will publicly announce they will read less of you and entire review blogs will be dedicated to diminishing your footprint in SFF. Your every move and word of fiction will… Read more »
Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

“Mary Kowal might be a good example of a liberal in action.” Mary Kowal is a “liberal” but no liberal. She hides behind a mask of even-handedness while do exactly what we are falsely accused of doing. She is buying votes in broad daylight, even being subsidized to do so, and no one is calling her out on it because “civility”?

Explain to me how what Mary is doing is in anyway different from handing out cartons of cigarettes to transients to get them into the polls on election day?

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 13 days ago
Well, let’s be frank. Does anyone expect anything different than victories for No Award, Kowal votes or no Kowal votes? That’s why I can’t get too much worked up. Also, I’m convinced she means it without any nefarious motive. If she isn’t, she’s the best actress ever… although on the other hand, she happens to be: http://maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/how-i-beat-pat-rothfuss-at-being-pat-rothfuss/ Jokes aside, I don’t believe there was any bad intention. It saw also said here and in Brad’s blog, and she said she’d be happy to give them to anyone who asked and said they couldn’t afford it, Puppies or not… Having said… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 13 days ago
This is not complex. Just use Occam’s Razor and the concept of motivation. What does her ideological feminist diversity crusade get out of this? Suddenly it’s all about the literature? This is her pinned Tweet at the top of her feed: “It’s not about adding diversity for the sake of diversity, it’s about subtracting homogeneity for the sake of realism.” That bit of incomprehensible semantic gibberish and illogic is her obsession, as it is for the entirety of this truly bizarre cult. You will never see that applied as a principle to any hobby or cultural interest in the world… Read more »
Josh
Guest
Josh
2 years 12 days ago

I will only note that she pointed out that others were following in her footsteps in offering free memberships, and that she encouraged those others to offer their freebies on their own sites to promote variety.

You are free to believe what you wish about her motive, but Occam’s Razor suggests that it might be possible to divine that motive from reading her words.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Taking words at face value when they conflict with all her other words is precisely where the shaving comes in.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 13 days ago

Arthur Chu. Again. So many distortions I don’t know where to begin.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/12/right-wing-trolls-hijack-scifi-oscars.html

Mike
Guest
2 years 13 days ago
That has to be one of the most disgusting piles of misrepresentation and character defamation I’ve ever read. I found a quote on another site I’ll share here “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.… Read more »
Lea
Guest
Lea
2 years 12 days ago

I think someone should post that CS Lewis quote on the comment section of every single one of these stories.

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 13 days ago

Tried to reply to Chu but comments wouldnt’t open.

SDN
Guest
SDN
2 years 13 days ago

This is my shocked face.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

I love Chu and Shaun Duke from Skiffy and Fanty, which is also Weimer and Cecily Kane’s playground. Reading what they said about Brad’s theoretical racism despite a black wife reinforced my idea that they are people who are almost completely devoid of human souls or human empathy. People who sign on with this gender feminist nuthatchery are truly creepy people, like Nation of Islam New Black Panther Party creepy.

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 12 days ago
My response to GRRM. Obviously this is my opinion and I do not speak for anyone else: *** Mr. Martin, I think you talk with a lot of common sense and have strong arguments in many of the things you say. I think that Mr. Correia and Mr. Torgerson are angry, and that anger sometimes makes them see things as worse than they are. In your “Where’s the Beef” post you made a good argument that the Hugos have not turned their back on entertaining, popular fiction, and I think you are right here and not Mr. Correia (although by… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

did you miss Laurajmixon.com? Seems she did a pretty good takedown on the rabid far left in question …

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Did you miss Mixon’s “Patriarch’s Day Part IV”?

She IS the rabid left. Her gender feminist beliefs are identical with Requires Hate.

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

I guess i did … I’ll go hunt it up …

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

hmmm

I must be looking in the wrong place … I dashed over to t0r.c0m to try and find the hate and vileness that is causing all this angst …

checked the headlines … nope … lots of Game of Thrones stuff, Harry Potter stuff, Patrick Rothfuss stuff

checked the community link… same stuff …. to be honest I didn’t read all those threads so I suppose there might be hate directed towards Correia inc. in there, but it appears to me that you guys are simply being ignored.

that’s gotta hurt.

again maybe I’m looking in the wrong place?

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Not at all. TorCom is like a site with 99 pages about peace and love and on page 100 it says “We hate N-words.” Kinda cancels the rest out, doesn’t it?

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 12 days ago
TorCom is a huge site. The ultimate objective is promoting Tor products, of course, but they try to do so by putting together an attractive site with loads of new content every day. They have a lot of money, and they pay better rates than any proffesional magazine in the genre. I like many things in it. It is not a site focused on SJW stuff. However, they do have several columnists very much along those lines. Tor is also famous for having several editors (not all by any means), who are extremely rabid SJWs. The Nielsen Haydens, for example,… Read more »
Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

I don’t HAVE to go against TOR. I just don’t have to go TO them. When they remember that part of the seller/buyer relationship everyone will be happier.

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago
I get that you guys are all /libertarian/conservative/gun-loving/Christians … I’m liberal. But I also don’t really like some of the far-left stuff that goes on. I own and shoot a gun … but I’ll never join the NRA. I don’t like being made to feel guilty for loving RAH while growing up. But on the other hand when I read some of the Vox Day/John Wright stuff … I want to gag. So help me understand … why should I support and/or sympathize with you guys? I like Larry’s books (at least the ones I’ve read) and don’t really find… Read more »
keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 12 days ago
WHO CARES who does what to whom? Exactly. Who cares if people write women as heroes in their books? Who cares if people don’t want to voice approval of things they don’t like? Who cares if someone else’s vote is influenced by their religious beliefs? Who cares if someone else would rather lose money than be open for business on their holy day? Who cares if the people next door to you own a weapon? Who cares if people want to refuse to pay for someone elses medical procedure? Who cares? Let people do what they want, and I’ll do… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago
who cares? Well I own a gun because I’m scared of the NRA whack-jobs far more than I am of the criminals. And now I’m scared of the police (which I see as an extension of said NRA whack-jobs). I’m willing to believe that most of you people are perfectly reasonable … but the loudest amongst you (i.e. Ted Nugent etc) ARE NOT. I don’t care if you want to close on Sundays. I DO care if you want to refuse service to certain segments of society. I don’t care if you don’t want your pregnant daughter to get an… Read more »
Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Having said you armed yourself because you’re more scared of “NRA Whack-Jobs” far more than you are of criminals, we can now safely discount you as a serious individual. How many murders in your town committed by “NRA whack-jobs”?

Not that I suspect we’ll have to worry about you for long, because I have a feeling we’ll see you on the news one day shot by a cop you pulled a gun on at a traffic stop.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Does Ted Nugent write science fiction? Does Game of Thrones not serve gays?

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 12 days ago
Clif – I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but all groups have nutjobs, hypocrites, liars, and boors amongst them. It is an unfortunate thing that the loudest are generally the most obnoxious. I own a gun because I’m scared of the NRA whack-jobs far more than I am of the criminals. And now I’m scared of the police (which I see as an extension of said NRA whack-jobs). “A person is generally not reasoned OUT OF a stance he was not reasoned INTO.” I am not going to tell you what to fear and not fear. I… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago
“having said you armed yourself because you’re more scared of “NRA Whack-Jobs” far more than you are of criminals, we can now safely discount you as a serious individual. How many murders in your town committed by “NRA whack-jobs”?” perhaps I should rephrase … I’ve armed myself because I feel that I need to in a society where guns and people wielding guns is so commonplace as to be a danger to me and mine. That is true in large part because of the “NRA whack-jobs” heretofore mentioned. In my opinion. This if course has nothing to with the writing… Read more »
Murgy
Guest
Murgy
2 years 12 days ago

Who cares more about the way some one voted than they do about the way they write a story?

Who cares more about someone’s ancestral origins than they do about the way they craft a paragraph?

Who cares more about punishing those who speak against the group think than they do about entertaining their readers?

Freedom – how does that work, again?

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
This is simple: like the old days, we ask literary and artistic questions. Good or bad, that is what we get. Gender feminist SJWs lie and say we were asking white male hero questions. But by it’s very nature such SF defaults to an everyman, unless you like reading about Jim Crow in outer space – and SJWs do. In their work, gender feminist SJWs ask race-gender questions and that is what they get. Since art and literature take a back seat, their work is not only routinely bad but often not even SFF. … then there’s the hate speech.… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

but we don’t LIVE in the old days … and we never will.

I’m not a fan of much of the current sci-fi “literature” … and I detest counting how many women are in books and the unending “Bechdel Testing” of books etc.

But there are issues in today’s society that we can’t ignore. Racism is one. Gender issues are another. IMO SFF shouldn’t be the one trying to solve those issues … I don’t read SFF for that. I read The Atlantic etc if I want that.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Then we are in agreement. So what’s the beef?

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

“So what’s the beef?”

I don’t want guys like Ted Nugent, Vox Day, John Wright, etc … speaking for me … I guess

Murgy
Guest
Murgy
2 years 12 days ago

What is best? Conan answered that, even if he didn’t give Genghis Khan a credit! 🙂

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 12 days ago

I don’t want guys like Ted Nugent, Vox Day, John Wright, etc … speaking for me … I guess

…sorry, not following.

None of them speaks for me. Not when I vote for the Hugos, not when I write, not when I vote at the polling place. Not when I stand before God.

Can you expand on what you mean?

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

well thanks guys … thanks for being civil about it and trying to explain. I’m a bit confused about my own thinking … paradigm shifts ARE confusing I suppose.

I’ll continue to read stuff by authors I like … and maybe at the very least .. give you guys a little more credit. Perhaps we CAN agree to disagree on some things and agree to agree on others. A little more of that in the world today would go a long way …

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

They don’t speak for me, buddy.

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Ahhh…. the old days are ALWAYS there. They’re patient, though, and will wait til you call them whether you know it or not.

Ashterah
Guest
Ashterah
2 years 12 days ago

When the F did Ted Nugent enter into this equation? Da Fuque?

Concern troll is concern trolling. Bye now!

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

“When the F did Ted Nugent enter into this equation? Da Fuque?
Concern troll is concern trolling. Bye now!”

I was asked!

that’s what the fuque!

I don’t really know what a concern troll is … is that epithet for a person who points out embarrassing things about your position?

John C Wright
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

““So what’s the beef?”

I don’t want guys like Ted Nugent, Vox Day, John Wright, etc … speaking for me … I guess”

Mr Clif, I would not speak for you if you paid me. I am retired from law.

Richard McEnroe
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Wow, Clif, concern trolling is harder than it looks, isn’t it?

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

wow Richard … you sounds just like some remarks I’ve one of those SJW sites you despise.

Ashterah
Guest
Ashterah
2 years 12 days ago
Because we don’t CARE how you believe, unlike the SJW crowd. We care that you like SFF, are passionate about it, no matter which books you like or dislike. This is so not about liking or not liking guns, or conservativism or purple polka dotted people. IT IS ABOUT THE SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY! Nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, I don’t care if you want to have a drive-by abortion while you bake a cake for a polygamous trisexual wedding and then go out to celebrate at a gun range afterwards. I don’t care who or what you are. I care that… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

ok .. if you say so.

JLawson
Guest
JLawson
2 years 12 days ago
SF is, or should be, about the story. That’s it. That’s all. If folks are banging on about ‘diversity’ and its importance to the scene, they’re ignoring one thing. Is the writing good? Does the description appeal enough to make me want to buy the book? That’s what matters to me. And since I read SF, I don’t much care if the author has feathers, fins, or scales – or breathes oxygen or ammonia. It’s IDEAS that drive my interest, not ideology. If I’m buying through Amazon’s Kindle store, I don’t bother checking out whether the author’s on any sort… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

“This is so not about liking or not liking guns, or conservativism …”

if that’s the case then why are so many (most?) of you on that side of the aisle?

where are your liberal spokesmen/women?

keranih
Guest
keranih
2 years 12 days ago

where are your liberal spokesmen?

Fussing at people who say “spokesmen” instead of “spokespeople” or “spokesmen/women”. Which we ignore. Which is why they either give up on it or leave.

James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

It’s not likely they would get through, over on websites like MakingLight or io9; more likely they would get “disemvoweled” or ignored, due to their associations with SP. I’ve had posts “stay in the grey” over at io9 even without any political content at all; and most of the political ones rarely release either.
Where are the conservative spokesmen for the liberal groups? They get ignored and shouted down until they leave. Group politics are the same everywhere.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

I think you’re confusing conservatism with a bunch of people who’ve been attacked for being white or male or heterosexual. That is of course going to cut across any political spectrum. If people are arrested and thrown into a cell for being black they’re not likely to all be Catholics or libertarians. They’re just going to be black.

It’s only natural that opposing gender feminism is going to be mostly done by its targets. if I throw rocks at squirrels I don’t get attacked by a swarm of owls.

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

“Fussing at people who say “spokesmen” instead of “spokespeople” or “spokesmen/women”. Which we ignore. Which is why they either give up on it or leave.”

ah ..my bad .. forgot where I was for a sec

“I’ve had posts “stay in the grey” over at io9 even without any political content at all”

yeah that’s weird … I have no connection at all with any groups and I have posts in the grey over there … think that’s probably just more of a case of lazy moderation than anything … but maybe not

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Exactly how does one get more liberal than live and let live? From what I’ve read from people involved in SP, that’s certainly the vast majority.

We just want literature. It is not circumscribed. We like everyone and have read everyone. Christ, I’ve even read Elliott, Leckie, de Bodard, Stross, Ahmed, Scalzi, and a ton more.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Partner, you’ll never meet anyone more liberal than me. But by “liberal” what I mean is I don’t care what millions of people do and millions of people don’t care what I think.

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

yeah well I’m not a “liberal” in the sense of how conservatives define it … but I guess none of us fit exactly the labels we like to throw at each other.

I mostly just think that people should get as fair a shake in life as possible (given that life is never completely fair).

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 12 days ago

One of the many things I find hilarious: the accusation that this is run by a cabal of “old white men”. Leaving aside Larry’s ethnicity, he’s 38, same age I am. Brad is 41. Scalzi, on the other hand, is 46 and Martin must be in his ’60s.

It’s what they’ve feared for a long time. They aren’t the hip young counterculture anymore. We speak truth to *their* power now.

Retief003
Guest
Retief003
2 years 12 days ago

Why does anyone actually give a damn about Scalzi, his attempts at cloning Starship Troopers are pathetic, and there are dozens of other clones of varying quality.

Redshirts was average-ish humor, with dull characters, basically it was Galaxy Quest the novelization, done badly.
Then the second half of the book it turned into this massive self-aggrandizing whank fest about “creators”.

I wanted to vomit.

Seriously, Scalzi sucks.

James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Even funnier is Joanna Russ and Samuel R. Delany were published at 22 and 20. If the white patriarchy was strangling their careers at birth they did a poor job of it. And that’s during the dark ages – 1959 and 1962. Naturally awards would follow in order to even more severely hamstring their careers. As N. K. Jemisin puts it, white people truly are “diabolical” with their plans within plans within plans.

Why weren’t Brad and Larry published at 17? Could there be a meritocracy in play? Oh, oh.

Diabolism more likely.

James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
Hey Clif! shall I demand that you prove you are not an SJW? (Although, you can string three sentences together without using “privilege” or “intersection”, so there’s that going for you) ” I guess I need to be convinced you guys AREN’T white supremacists.” how does one prove a negative proposition? Can you prove you’re not a unicorn (over the internet?) we make no demands of you other than you read, enjoy and promote SF&F. we ask that you vote on the works you have read, according to your appreciation of the work (and not the author’s race, gender, or… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

so is that what you guys have all done? John Wright’s work is SO good he deserves to be on the ballot .. what … 6 times!? Is that some kind of record?

considering I had never even heard of the guy til I started following this discussion.

clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

that comment perhaps wasn’t fair as you shouldn’t be blamed for what others do …

Julaire
Guest
Julaire
2 years 12 days ago
OK, Clif, I’ll bite. Why are we not white supremacists? Go to Brad Torgersen’s website, on the ‘subjects’ list, click on Sad Puppies 3, scroll down until you find the post entitled “SAD PUPPIES 3: the 2015 Hugo slate” (I’d link it but don’t want to leave the comment awaiting moderation until Larry has some free time to allow it), and look at the list. That list has women, people of various ethnicities, and people from all over the political spectrum. If Sad Puppies were a bunch of white supremacists, why would the slate have that sort of variety on… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

cool .. I get that.

so why are you guys being called White Supremacists? Perhaps that was the question I should have asked in the first place?

Julaire
Guest
Julaire
2 years 12 days ago

“so why are you guys being called White Supremacists? ”

I would posit that the reason is tied to The Narrative. Those on the other side of this argument, despite the stated evidence in Brad and Larry’s posts, don’t believe them, and construct in their minds a Racist Strawman who is a white supremacist. They want to do everything they can to discredit the Sad Puppies movement, and will resort to falsehoods to do it.

James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
It’s called guilt by association; if I can find ONE member of your group with attribute “X”, then you are all “X”-ists. See also, Alinsky, Saul: “Rules for Radicals”. (Actually, it’s not even necessary that one of your group be an “X”; all that is necessary is that I CALL one of your group “X”, and that other people believe it, with or without research to verify it. Do you have time to research every claim you read, whether it’s “Makes your teeth brighter!” or “Eric Holder is a racist!” ? It’s HARD WORK being intellectually honest, and much easier… Read more »
James May
Guest
2 years 12 days ago

Within intersectional gender feminist ideology, we’re white supremacists because we’re white. Our demography defaults to an ideology. That’s why you see so many SJWs describe old SFF as being about a “cis white hero.”

Seinfeld has a joke where, to what he calls the politically correct, 10 white men in a room is the KKK.

I’m not going to put up the quotes again, but within radical feminism, heterosexuality, the male sex drive, lesbianism, etc. are all described as purposeful political and ideological acts.

The short version is radical feminists are psychos.

JLawson
Guest
JLawson
2 years 12 days ago

Narrative is important. In order for there to be a victim, there has to be an oppressor.

In order for there to be an oppressor, there must be an oppressed class. And who better than “White Supremacists” You literally cannot escape that label, once you’re called it. And even directly refuting it –

https://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/fort-living-room/

— is simply proof that you’re racist. Obviously Brad hates non-whites so much he had to enslave one.

Yeah, I don’t get it either.

Joshua
Guest
Joshua
2 years 12 days ago
Because SJW’s lie. Vox isn’t even white. Although after reading his blog for quite some time, I’d suggest that he does favor “white” civilization to that of any other, so if you’re really a pedantic SJW moron, maybe you can still make a twisted logic just-so story where he’s still a white supremacist anyway. And that’s Vox. Anyone associated with SAD Puppies, which is not RABID puppies, as much as the haters would love to conflate them, has even bigger hurdles to overcome to be called white supremacists by anyone with any modicum of rational thought whatsoever. I think it’s… Read more »
Patrick Chester
Guest
Patrick Chester
2 years 12 days ago

so why are you guys being called White Supremacists?

Because it’s a useful lie to use for smearing a person’s reputation. Works very well on fooling exceedingly gullible people.

Synova
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
Mostly people are being called White Supremacists because accusations of racism are the defacto American political method of saying “shut up.” Beyond that, in more detail, the charges are because of this “logic” train: I care about equality. Thus I think people need to make this particular public confession and also need to “understand” when PoC are angry *ssholes and also must always agree that they’ve done something wrong when they’re told they’ve done something wrong. Those other people over there refuse to make the particular public confession and they seem to think that PoC don’t have an excuse for… Read more »
Julaire
Guest
Julaire
2 years 12 days ago
Addendum: Note on that slate that John C Wright was only on there twice. Once under novella, and once under related work. That he has 6 nominations is not due to the Sad Puppies slate. It may have something to do with the Rabid Puppies slate (no direct affiliation, and if you want to take up the white supremacist question with Vox Day, I suggest you take it up with him on his site, and not conflate the two movements), but it also likely has something to do with a lot of people thinking John’s work is awesome (I haven’t… Read more »
clif
Guest
clif
2 years 12 days ago

“It may have something to do with the Rabid Puppies slate (no direct affiliation, and if you want to take up the white supremacist question with Vox Day, I suggest you take it up with him on his site, …”

yeah … I’m probably not going to do that. 😉

Murgy
Guest
Murgy
2 years 12 days ago

Clif,
Why ask us (who are not Vox)? Go to the primary source. He knows his views, and is not shy of stating them.

Unlike certain other sites, I’m 98.5% sure you won’t get disemvowelled or banned for asking an honest question.

Otherwise, why are you asking us to interpret him?
(I know the answer in my mind, but…just in case I’m wrong, I’d like to hear if from you.)

James the Wanderer
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
I believe the SP list had John Wright on it twice, and the RP list added the rest. Having said that, and NOT commenting on the inherent virtues / vices of Wright’s work: My impression is that the vast majority of publishers are liberal right now (weird, right? why not publish what sells?) and only Baen (and Tor, to some extent) of the MAJOR publishers publish ANY conservative SF&F. This may be an abstraction / inaccurate; although I’ve seen several posts from unknown authors that say things like “I’ve had to cross off 30 publishers from my potential list because… Read more »
John C Wright
Guest
2 years 12 days ago
Allow me to answer a question with a question: was Seanan McGuire’s work so good that she got 5 nominations in 2013? I have not read BLACKOUT or her other works, but I am willing to believe hers might have been that good. Also keep in mind that every story I wrote in the last twenty years, Castalia House published the best of my best all in one year, none of which had seen print before. This is because I found no other market for the work. So you are looking at ten years or more of work all coming… Read more »
Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 12 days ago

Heaven help us, Clamps is in the comments on GRRM’s site.

josh
Guest
josh
2 years 12 days ago

I thought the same thing but didn’t want to bother to take the time to register and hope my comment got approved just to call him out. I found the accusation that Vox was the one stalking him particularly humorous. He was actually commenting on the “Hatespeech” post so it would have been particularly ironic.

Joshua
Guest
Joshua
2 years 12 days ago

I was about to suggest that I totally am going to blame Tor, because after all PNH is an agent of Tor, and until Tor refutes, rebukes, or releases him, then he speaks for Tor.

Then, of course, I remembered that TNH is really the one who’s causing all of the trouble. PNH is being quite quiet. And TNH no longer works for Tor, under suspicion of having been fired, if the rumors are true.

And if so, that actually DOES speak well for Tor, come to think of it.

Charles Prael
Guest
Charles Prael
2 years 10 days ago

No, PNH has also stuck his foot in it. Go back to release day. Look up his comments on the thread @ tor.com, specifically about “taking a stand” for moral reasons.

I’ve got your moral stand right here. It’s labelled “Walter Breen”.

Avery
Guest
Avery
2 years 12 days ago
This fight has captured my attention. I’ve read scores of articles about this. What I’ve decided is that for a mere $40 you can vote for a Hugo Award!!!! Awesome!!! If you pay, you also get to download most of the publications that get ranked in the top 5!! Also Awesome!!! So for mere money I can vote for something that was won by authors who drove my interest in SF/Fantasy. I can farm out my vote in categories that I know nothing about to my family members (wife; nephew & his husband for TV shows for example)!!! I never… Read more »
Mike Anderson
Guest
2 years 8 days ago

Amen, Avery! I got clued in to this Open Secret by Sarah Hoyt, by way of the Instapundit. Suddenly SciFi is a whole lot more fun. Be sure to get your supporting membership MidAmericaConII so you can nominate for next year.

Christopher M. Chupik
Guest
Christopher M. Chupik
2 years 12 days ago

“julie ‏@heyjulieann · 3h3 hours ago
larry correia is the reason we’re never getting the winds of winter.”

Oh for the love of . . . !

AG
Guest
AG
2 years 12 days ago

He! He! 15 years after this, when he finally publishes The Winds of Winter, GRRM is going to include a 700-pages appendix about Sad Puppies.

Jokes aside, he has been a trooper. He loves fandom, to want to write about this and moderate so much. I like him, even if he is resolute in not seeing what he does not want to see.